The Pre-Trib Rapture

[marks]

When Lord Jesus comes in the clouds, He sends His angels to gather only His elect faithful still alive on earth, and joins them with Him and the risen saints He brings with Him. Have you not read that in 1 Thessalonians 4? Then Zechariah 14 tells us where His destination is, and His elect are with Him when His feet set upon the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem.

Is this a part of that?

Ezekiel 39:25-29 KJV
25) Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
26) After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
27) When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28) Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
29) Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Much love!

 

[Davy]

OK, that helps! Essentially then that those who become Christians do so primarily being Israelites who were "sifted among the nations" (Amos, I think)? Along with some Gentiles also, but these not very many. So when Jesus returns and gathers Isreal to fulfill the land promise, that the "gentile church" is included isn't an issue because it's really all Israel, not actually "gentile"? So God can give them the land grants, and no confusion, because we actually all did come from some particular tribe initially.

Do I have the right idea?

Much love!

Why do you make so much emphasis on the idea of the seed of Israel, when Apostle Paul didn't?

God gave promises specifically to the seed of Israel, and all those who believe on His Son are included now per The New Covenant, regardless of race or national origin. Haven't you understood Apostle Paul in Ephesians 2 about the "commonwealth of Israel" he mentioned to Gentile believers there?

 

[marks]

Why do you make so much emphasis on the idea of the seed of Israel, when Apostle Paul didn't?

God gave promises specifically to the seed of Israel, and all those who believe on His Son are included now per The New Covenant, regardless of race or national origin. Haven't you understood Apostle Paul in Ephesians 2 about the "commonwealth of Israel" he mentioned to Gentile believers there?

I'm sorry, I'm just trying to follow and understand your reasoning here.

Much love!

 

[Davy]

Yes, I've read those passages. I happen to have a different understanding of them then you. But yes, I've read them.

Does this include the OT faithful? Daniel?

Much love!

Why do you have a different interpretation of that, since I'm only referencing the Scripture as written? Paul said to not worry about the asleep brethren, because Jesus will bring them with Him when He comes. And then the saints still alive He will gather then at that time of His coming also. How hard can this be? But the 1 Thessalonians 4 chapter does not tell us the 'when', nor the 'where', they are gathered by Jesus. Zechariah 14 does.

And yes, He will include the OT faithful, or did you miss this...

Matt 8:11-12
11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
KJV

Jesus said that to the centurion (likely a Roman) who asked Him to heal his servant who lay sick at home. He asked Jesus to just speak the word only to heal his servant.

 

[marks]

Why do you make so much emphasis on the idea of the seed of Israel, when Apostle Paul didn't?

Jeremiah sure did.

Jeremiah 31:31-37 KJV
31) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

So the question is, did the sun come up today? The moon shine at night? Have you measured the sky, or been to the foundations of the earth?

The Seed of Israel remains a nation before God. And nothing they can do will change that.

Much love!

 

[Timtofly]

Yes 12 tribes times the 12 apostles equals 144 and 1000 meaning many just like the walls in the New Jerusalem are 144 cubics thick why is the number always 144?

Because God created math into creation.

 

[Davy]

Maybe another moment to consider what I'm saying? Are you speaking toward the topic? Or about me?

I was asking you how my pre-trib view exposes me to the risk of being deceived by a false Christ, your reply was, "Don't you understand . . . ?"

I'm actually still interested in an answer to that question.

I think the rapture comes before the tribulation. How does that put me at risk of believing someone is Christ, who is not? I don't see that.

Jesus warned about false Christs and false prophets, isn't that a warning to all?

Much love!

Let's take things one by one then, and I cannot make it more simple than this:

1. Lord Jesus in His Olivet discourse (especially Matthew 24 and Mark 13), gave His disciples and especially us specific Signs of the end of this world leading up to His return, to be watching. That He gave us so we would not be deceived. The very 1st Sign He gave was to not allow any man to deceive us (Matthew 24:4). Thus the idea of deception is a major warning He gave us about the end.

2. The Pre-trib Rapture theory instead teaches not to be concerned about the time of "great tribulation", because Jesus is going to rapture us out prior to the tribulation.

3. But Lord Jesus showed His elect will... go through the "great tribulation" He warned about, and even showed His coming to gather His saints is after... the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27.

4. Pre-trib Rapture theory says to just 'be ready' for Christ's coming.

5. Christ said to 'Watch', which is 'how'... He taught for us to be ready, and it involves watching those Signs He gave leading up to His coming.

6. Pre-trib Rapture theory just teaches 'don't worry, be happy' (like the song), and disregards watching Christ's Signs and warnings He gave.

7. Jesus specifically warned His elect of a coming pseudo-Christ that will place the "abomination of desolation" per the Book of Daniel (Daniel 11:31 If I recall). He made that event from the Book of Daniel a prophecy for the very end of this world. The context of the Matthew 24:23-26 verses is about a 'singular' pseudo-Christ that He warned to not believe is Him. The KJV phrase "false Christs" is the Greek word pseudochristos, of which Greek pseudo means fake, and Greek christos means Christ, singular. The parallel of that event about a singular false one was described by Apostle Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4.

8. Men's doctrines (not specifically pre-trib) instead teach that the "antichrist" word means anyone and everyone that works against Christ. They do not teach a singular Antichrist is coming at the end of this world. But God's Word does, the word "antichrist" in the Greek simply means 'the instead of Christ', or 'in place of Christ', and not really against-Christ.

9. In 2 Thessalonians 2, Apostle Paul showed that before Jesus comes to gather us, the "man of sin" MUST be revealed. That means that false one, the Antichrist, or pseudo-Christ, we must be here still when he is revealed. That chapter also shows Jesus' coming to destroy that "Wicked" one, which also points to that false Christ coming first.

 

[Timtofly]

BTW, I was Pre-TB for over 30 years. My home church is currently Pre-TB. My Father and mother, my grandparents were all Pre-TB. So I understand your thought process on the subject. I know what you been taught. And I am not Pre-TB and I am not Pre wrath.

Are you pro-beheadings? P-B?

 

[Davy]

Jeremiah sure did.

Jeremiah 31:31-37 KJV
31) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

So the question is, did the sun come up today? The moon shine at night? Have you measured the sky, or been to the foundations of the earth?

The Seed of Israel remains a nation before God. And nothing they can do will change that.

Much love!

Yeah, but that is because God first gave His Promises through them, He chose them, but for what duty? To be caretakers of The Gospel and preach it to the nations, to be a nation of priests. What's the priest's duties? To preach and teach God's Word to the people. That's the actual original meaning of a pastor's duties, to pasture the flock, feed Christ's sheep. That the ten lost tribes under Ephraim has done with the manifesting of the western Christian nations. And the Gentiles that have believed have become part of the "commonwealth of Israel". That certainly does not mean God's Israel ended or was replaced, for the name Israel means those who 'overcome with God's help'. And that definitely is about Christ's Church.

 

[marks]

6. Pre-trib Rapture theory just teaches 'don't worry, be happy' (like the song), and disregards watching Christ's Signs and warnings He gave.

Man.

We must be on different planets or something.

Anyway, I've got to run, I'll revisit this Monday, and pick up again. I'm enjoying this, btw! Thank you!

Much love!

 

[marks]

for the name Israel means those who 'overcome with God's help'. And that definitely is about Christ's Church.

You keep confusing me. Is it ethnic Israel, or no? The "seed of Israel" that remains a nation before God?

Much love!

 

[Davy]

Is this a part of that?

Ezekiel 39:25-29 KJV
25) Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
26) After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
27) When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28) Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
29) Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Much love!

Yes, about Christ's elect Church, both Israelites and Gentiles together. Those who reject Christ will be in a place of separation from His elect, which is why I pointed you to Ezekiel 44. Jesus showed that also in Matthew 8:11, remember. It is shown in Revelation 22:14-15 too, with the wicked who are outside the gates of the holy city.

 

[Davy]

You keep confusing me. Is it ethnic Israel, or no? The "seed of Israel" that remains a nation before God?

Much love!

The 'name'... Israel, is the name of Christ's Kingdom for Eternity. Why?

Because the name Israel represents the 'overcomers' in Christ Jesus.

Don't you recall when Jacob wrestled with the Angel of The Lord, and overcame, and demanded a blessing? God then gave Jacob the new name 'Israel', because as a prince Jacob had power with God and prevailed. It is the Salvation name.

However, many deceived Jews think the name Israel is only about them, the unbelievers among them are even worse in that, because they don't see the connection of that name Israel to God's Promise by Faith first given to Abraham which descended to Jacob, and also how the name is about The Gospel of Jesus Christ. So an idea that the name Israel can be separated from the idea of Christ's Church of overcomers? Impossible.

 

[No Pre-TB]

Revelation 12:9-11 KJV
9) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10) And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11) And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Revelation 13:15 KJV
15) And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Revelation 20:4 KJV
4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Much love!

Rev 12, 13 and 20 mention death, but that doesnt mean it is related to that group in Ch. 15.

 

[No Pre-TB]

Where do you see this taught?

Rev 7:14
14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation,

 

[No Pre-TB]

Marks, if you don't mind..what verse or verses do you place the rapture and why?

 

[ewq1938]

They asked Him where the one taken would be taken to. He didn’t really answer their question. But I’m guessing you think…the one taken would be taken somewhere and killed and fed to vultures…?

Christ takes the one taken so the one taken represents part of the army he takes to Armageddon. The ones who die there were taken there by the beast. The one taken is at Armageddon but watching not dying like some assert.

 

[Cassandra]

Christ takes the one taken so the one taken represents part of the army he takes to Armageddon. The ones who die there were taken there by the beast. The one taken is at Armageddon but watching not dying like some assert.

What's an assert?

 

[Mugre Pinzon]

Hi I haven’t met you yet! Welcome!
Believe me, I already know the party line. I think it’s very flawed in many places, but I could recite it blindfolded. :)

Roger that. Thanks for the welcome.

 

[No Pre-TB]

Are you pro-beheadings? P-B?

Pro beheadings? I am a Christian. We are to be self-controlled and walk in Christ likeness which is against violence.