The Pre-Trib Rapture

[Timtofly]

Yes. Christ comes to the clouds of the Earth to meet the raptured saints, then down further to Armageddon where he fights from the air. Only after the second coming events are finished does he step on the ground. Earth will be his forever home, with the Farther coming here as well after the New Heaven and new Earth takes place.

You left out Zechariah 14. Jesus comes to the Mt. Of Olives at the Second Coming.

Armageddon is after Satan's 42 months, and is not the Second Coming. Armageddon is not a thief in the night. The Second Coming to the Mt. Of Olives is the thief in the night moment.

No one knows when something is going to snap, and Israel is attacked.

Armageddon is a planned event involving the 7 vials.

 

[Davy]

Justification in Jesus Christ . . . may be more then you may think it is.

We can't improve on it with our good behavior.

Much love!

That is a truly silly notion of your own making. It's really an 'excuse' the deceived use who refuse to heed Christ's and His Apostle's warnings against falling away to the coming false Messiah.

Matt 24:23
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.
KJV

That is Lord Jesus speaking, but not to those who make excuses.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Oh my gosh. I have never encouraged a man to find a church because with the state we are in now I rather would be more concerned for someone who does attend one than I would be for someone who just lets the Holy Spirit teach them, but for the first time ever I almost feel the opposite…oh my gosh…

 

[Davy]

They asked Him where the one taken would be taken to. He didn’t really answer their question.

Oh, yes He did answer their question. And since we are to study all of His Word, He put part of the detail of His answer in Matthew 24:28, which I showed, but here it is again, just for you...

Matt 24:28
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
KJV

Now if you look that above verse up in the Greek, you'll discover that word "carcase" there is about a literal, dead carcase. What do fowls do with a dead carcase, particularly scavenger fowls? They eat it. Lord Jesus used that analogy of fowls eating a dead carcase for those 1st ones that are 'taken'. It means the 1st ones are taken in deception, is what it means.

But I’m guessing you think…the one taken would be taken somewhere and killed and fed to vultures…?

See, you actually began to understand once you used your noggin. To understand why He used the idea of 'eagles' instead of vultures, you would have had to understand that from the Old Testament Books. I'll try, but I doubt it will make sense to you at this point...

In Jeremiah 49:22, God compares a destruction that would come upon Edom with the destroyer being like an 'eagle' spreading its wings over Bozrah, and then refers to the men of Edom on that day being like a woman in birth pangs. In Obadiah 4, God uses the idea of an eagle to represent Edom's show of false pride, being like an eagle in the sense of glory (an eagle is probably the most glorious type of bird, so I hope you get the analogy). In Ezekiel 17, God uses the idea of a 'great eagle' to represent the king of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar. So the 'eagle' in God's Word is often used for the idea of loftiness, high status, even royalty.

How then would that apply to the Antichrist when He comes to set himself up as God (per 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4)? Antichrist and his servants for the trib represents that idea of coming like 'eagles'. He is going to exalt himself as God, according to Apostle Paul. And Christ commanded us to NOT believe it, i.e., do not believe on that coming Antichrist as God (Matthew 24:23-26).

Thus the 1st ones taken are actually taken into deception by false eagles that eat on a 'spiritually' dead "carcase". That's the analogy by Christ. Thus the deceived are wheresoever the false eagles are gathered to feast on the dead. And that means falling away to bow to the Antichrist who comes first.

 

[Davy]

Do you have your spare oil? What does that mean?

Much love!

What did Jesus say that The Holy Spirit Comforter would do for His servants? Jesus said The Holy Spirit Comforter would teach us all things. The Oil in the lamps represents The Holy Spirit teaching us. Lord Jesus even used the analogy of 'light' for knowledge in understanding...

Luke 8:15-18
15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

16 No man, when he hath lighted a candle, covereth it with a vessel, or putteth it under a bed; but setteth it on a candlestick, that they which enter in may see the light.

17 For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad.

18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.
KJV


Those who think The Holy Spirit is for something else, and not about His giving us understanding in His Word, deceive themselves, and show they do not have the spare vessel of the Oil. That is why the five foolish virgins thought they could go to the market and buy it.

 

[Davy]

Regardless of our various eschatological views, I have much greater confidence in the Holy Spirit than this.

Much love!

I hope you do too, but it's still my duty to warn the brethren about it, because many Churches today are not giving Christ's warnings about it for the end. And the worst group not giving His warnings about it are those who say stuff like, "Don't worry, you won't be here for all that, you'll be raptured before the trib happens."

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Amazing…

 

[Davy]

I don't understand your answer.

Is the gathering of the church and the gathering of Isreal the same in your eyes? Is the church gathered to Jesus when He appears ln the sky, and Israel then gathered by the angels after that? Something else? Does my question make sense?

Much love!

Let me put it this way. Probably a majority of the ten lost tribes of Israel were scattered from the lands of Assyria and the Medes westward across the Caucasus Mountains around the Black Sea, and founded the modern nations of Asia Minor and Europe. They fulfilled the Genesis 48 prophecy that Ephraim's seed would become "a multitude of nations", and that his brother Manasseh also would become "great". And per the Book of Hosea, God showed that He would lure the ten tribes into the wilderness and speak softly to them, and take the names of Baali out of their mouths, and He would make a new covenant with them. This is why The Gospel first took hold in the western Christian nations on national scales after the Passion of Christ.

Thus John Nelson Darby's Dispensationalist theories about restored Israel being separate from Christ's Church when Jesus returns is all... bogus, and not written. Christ with His faithful elect who did not fall away will reign with Him and the "rod of iron" promised Him, as written. And that rule will be over the children of Israel, and also over the Gentiles. His elect will be made up of both Israelites and Gentiles that remained faithful to the end, known as His Church. This is what God's Word shows as written (Isaiah 11:10; Isaiah 49:6; Isaiah 49:22; Isaiah 54:3, etc.).

 

[marks]

some of The Greek texts themselves are the problem. Sinaiaticus is believed to be a forgery. some of the Nag Hamadi texts are outright Gnostic in origin, Vaticanus has many ommissions from the textus receptus and this use of autos is one of them. As I have said here before I am not a KJV only person, but every believer should study and be aware of the arguments of the KJV only side. The modern versions have hundreds of ommissions from the textus receptus that you should be aware because they are based on weaker Greek versions of the text, and some cases fraudulent and heretical versions of the text.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here, I'm referring to the TR. I don't myself recommend that you use the Vaticanus for your authority. Are you assuming I'm using an Alexandrian based version?


So it looks to me that autous has some substantial foundation here.

But just the same, getting back to the point we were looking at, autous is referring to the witnesses themselves, while tis is "any", and "man" or "human" isn't specified. This doesn't have to do with manuscript issues as you can see above. It's the same in all these, even Wescott and Hort.

So the conclusion remains sound. The witnesses are not able to be harmed by "any". God does not create a conflict by giving one immunity from another, but giving the other power over the one. God doesn't make Himself a liar by granting the beast authority to make war and overcome everyone, but with a secret carve out.

Revelation 13:7 KJV
7) And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

The question becomes if this verse is true or not. It is true. Therefore, the timeline stands.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Amazing…

OK, I'll bite, what has amazed you?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Most pre tribbers are hyper dispensationalists

I wouldn't know about that, but again, I find labeling to be unproductive myself, better to speak towards what's actively being said in the discussion itself. Otherwise we get dragged off into tangents.

and uses this to explain away the Olivet discourse problem.

So when you say "the Olivet discourse problem", what do you mean?

Much love!

 

[marks]

It also creates a class of people known as tribulation saints to explain away that saints are shown in Revelation enduring the mark of the beast and the Great tribulation.

Are you saying no one will become believers during the 70th week?

Much love!

 

[Mugre Pinzon]

Many disagree and think they see strong indications of it, in both old and new testaments, that God removes the righteous before He pours out His wrath.

Members of the Church have been made righteous by being washed in the Blood of the Lamb. Once saved, all remain imperfect during this life but we remain justified in Jesus forever. Therefore, none who are Believers will be left behind as all are justified and have their names written in the Lamb's Book of Life. Believers are not justified on account of any work, but by faith through God's grace.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Members of the Church have been made righteous by being washed in the Blood of the Lamb. Once saved, all remain imperfect during this life but we remain justified in Jesus forever. Therefore, none who are Believers will be left behind as all are justified and have their names written in the Lamb's Book of Life. Believers are not justified on account of any work, but by faith through God's grace.

Hi I haven’t met you yet! Welcome!
Believe me, I already know the party line. I think it’s very flawed in many places, but I could recite it blindfolded. :)

 

[marks]

Let me put it this way. Probably a majority of the ten lost tribes of Israel were scattered from the lands of Assyria and the Medes westward across the Caucasus Mountains around the Black Sea, and founded the modern nations of Asia Minor and Europe. They fulfilled the Genesis 48 prophecy that Ephraim's seed would become "a multitude of nations", and that his brother Manasseh also would become "great". And per the Book of Hosea, God showed that He would lure the ten tribes into the wilderness and speak softly to them, and take the names of Baali out of their mouths, and He would make a new covenant with them. This is why The Gospel first took hold in the western Christian nations on national scales after the Passion of Christ.

Thus John Nelson Darby's Dispensationalist theories about restored Israel being separate from Christ's Church when Jesus returns is all... bogus, and not written. Christ with His faithful elect who did not fall away will reign with Him and the "rod of iron" promised Him, as written. And that rule will be over the children of Israel, and also over the Gentiles. His elect will be made up of both Israelites and Gentiles that remained faithful to the end, known as His Church. This is what God's Word shows as written (Isaiah 11:10; Isaiah 49:6; Isaiah 49:22; Isaiah 54:3, etc.).

OK, that helps! Essentially then that those who become Christians do so primarily being Israelites who were "sifted among the nations" (Amos, I think)? Along with some Gentiles also, but these not very many. So when Jesus returns and gathers Isreal to fulfill the land promise, that the "gentile church" is included isn't an issue because it's really all Israel, not actually "gentile"? So God can give them the land grants, and no confusion, because we actually all did come from some particular tribe initially.

Do I have the right idea?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Members of the Church have been made righteous by being washed in the Blood of the Lamb. Once saved, all remain imperfect during this life but we remain justified in Jesus forever. Therefore, none who are Believers will be left behind as all are justified and have their names written in the Lamb's Book of Life. Believers are not justified on account of any work, but by faith through God's grace.

Yes, after all, who would think we can make ourselves more reconciled to God than Jesus Christ has done for us?

Much love!

 

[Davy]

Is the church gathered to Jesus when He appears ln the sky, and Israel then gathered by the angels after that? Something else? Does my question make sense?

Much love!

When Lord Jesus comes in the clouds, He sends His angels to gather only His elect faithful still alive on earth, and joins them with Him and the risen saints He brings with Him. Have you not read that in 1 Thessalonians 4? Then Zechariah 14 tells us where His destination is, and His elect are with Him when His feet set upon the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem.

 

[Davy]

You are turning on me instead of answering my question. Let's take a break.

Much love!

Not turning on you, I'm simply stating facts of what the Pre-trib Rapture preachers teach.

 

[marks]

When Lord Jesus comes in the clouds, He sends His angels to gather only His elect faithful still alive on earth, and joins them with Him and the risen saints He brings with Him. Have you not read that in 1 Thessalonians 4? Then Zechariah 14 tells us where His destination is, and His elect are with Him when His feet set upon the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem.

Yes, I've read those passages. I happen to have a different understanding of them then you. But yes, I've read them.

Does this include the OT faithful? Daniel?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Not turning on you, I'm simply stating facts of what the Pre-trib Rapture preachers teach.

Maybe another moment to consider what I'm saying? Are you speaking toward the topic? Or about me?

I was asking you how my pre-trib view exposes me to the risk of being deceived by a false Christ, your reply was, "Don't you understand . . . ?"

I'm actually still interested in an answer to that question.

I think the rapture comes before the tribulation. How does that put me at risk of believing someone is Christ, who is not? I don't see that.

Jesus warned about false Christs and false prophets, isn't that a warning to all?

Much love!