The Pre-Trib Rapture

[marks]

Just like John heard "here is the lion of the tribe of Judah" and then he turned and saw the slain Lamb John also heard of the 144 000 he then saw the great uncountable multitude of every tribe people language and nation.

Revelation 7:1-8 KJV
1) And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2) And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3) Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4) And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5) Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6) Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7) Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8) Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

John is seeing on the earth.

Revelation 7:9-17 KJV
9) After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10) And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11) And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12) Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13) And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14) And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15) Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16) They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17) For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Then he sees in heaven.

First a numbered group, then an non-numbered group. God is able to describe both accurately.

Much love!

 

[Marty fox]

This one is literal.

Much love!

So would you say that the walls of the new Jerusalem are actually 144 cubics think? Why not 143 or 145 cubics think? The number is symbolic I mean would the new Jerusalem even need a wall?

 

[marks]

So would you say that the walls of the new Jerusalem are actually 144 cubics think? Why not 143 or 145 cubics think? The number is symbolic I mean would the new Jerusalem even need a wall?

Why even have a city?

But isn't that the height of the wall? That's how I've read it myself. Even so. If it's symbolic, I look for the text to say so, and what it means, like the red dragon in Ch. 12. And I saw another great sign . . . a red dragon . . . that ancient serpent . . . Satan . . . we're told it's a symbol, and what it means, giving us Biblical authority for the interpretation.

What is the Biblical authority in this case? That this isn't an actual group of 144,000 Israelites?

Much love!

 

[Marty fox]

Why even have a city?

But isn't that the height of the wall? That's how I've read it myself. Even so. If it's symbolic, I look for the text to say so, and what it means, like the red dragon in Ch. 12. And I saw another great sign . . . a red dragon . . . that ancient serpent . . . Satan . . . we're told it's a symbol, and what it means, giving us Biblical authority for the interpretation.

What is the Biblical authority in this case? That this isn't an actual group of 144,000 Israelites?

Much love!

Yes is it symbolic for the church?

 

[Enoch111]

So would you say that the walls of the new Jerusalem are actually 144 cubics think? Why not 143 or 145 cubics think? The number is symbolic...

Yes. 144 is in fact symbolic since it is the product of 12 x 12, and 12 is the number of divine government (hence 12 apostles on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel).

Now here is what we read in Revelation 21:17: And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

A royal cubit is taken to be 20 inches, and although it is not mentioned above, the measurement is that of the height of the wall. So the wall is actually 240 feet high! That is quite a wall, when ordinary walls on earth are not even 24 feet high.

As to why the city needs a wall, only God -- who designed and built that city -- has the answer. And since God planned it, you can rest assured that He had a good reason. The city itself is 1500 cubic miles in dimension (1500 x 1500 x 1500). So it is in fact a gigantic cube.

 

[marks]

Yes is it symbolic for the church?

What is the Biblical authority for this representing the church?

Because what it says is, 144,000 Isrealites.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Yes. 144 is in fact symbolic since it is the product of 12 x 12, and 12 is the number of divine government (hence 12 apostles on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel).

Now here is what we read in Revelation 21:17: And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

A royal cubit is taken to be 20 inches, and although it is not mentioned above, the measurement is that of the height of the wall. So the wall is actually 240 feet high! That is quite a wall, when ordinary walls on earth are not even 24 feet high.

As to why the city needs a wall, only God -- who designed and built that city -- has the answer. And since God planned it, you can rest assured that He had a good reason. The city itself is 1500 cubic miles in dimension (1500 x 1500 x 1500). So it is in fact a gigantic cube.

Some have pictured it as pyramidal.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Yes. 144 is in fact symbolic since it is the product of 12 x 12, and 12 is the number of divine government (hence 12 apostles on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel).

Now here is what we read in Revelation 21:17: And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

A royal cubit is taken to be 20 inches, and although it is not mentioned above, the measurement is that of the height of the wall. So the wall is actually 240 feet high! That is quite a wall, when ordinary walls on earth are not even 24 feet high.

As to why the city needs a wall, only God -- who designed and built that city -- has the answer. And since God planned it, you can rest assured that He had a good reason. The city itself is 1500 cubic miles in dimension (1500 x 1500 x 1500). So it is in fact a gigantic cube.

I don't see these numbers being without reason, but that doesn't mean that they aren't real numbers.

We put 5 candles on the birthday cake because the child is turning five, but it's STILL 5 candles.

Much love!

 

[Enoch111]

Some have pictured it as pyramidal.

True. But pyramids belong to pagans and cubes belong to God. Therefore the Holy of Holies was a perfect cube (20 cubits cubed), which represented the perfect cube in Heaven -- the New Jerusalem.

 

[ewq1938]

Psh!! Paradise and virgins, not in Bible.
A thousand years, in the Bible. Three times in one passage.

I think it's 6 times.

 

[ewq1938]

Good thing, because a Millennial Kingdom on this earth is the invention of man, found no place in scripture, and will never take place

That's false. Scripture is clear the thousand years is on the Earth:

Revelation 19 shows him coming to the Earth to battle Earthly forces. Revelation 21 shows Christ and the Father upon the Earth. It is ridiculous and unscriptural to take the stance that Christ never sets foot upon the Earth which he promised as part of his second coming. First coming was upon the Earth and so is the second coming.

Mat_26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

The Kingdom is coming here to be established on Earth and wine comes from the Earth.

Luk 13:29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.
Luk 13:30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

The Kingdom is Earthly.


Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

The redeemer is Christ and he shall stand upon the Earth in the latter day.

Rev_14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Mount Sion is an Earthly mountain. It is located just outside of Jerusalem.

Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Christ was on the Earth when he ascended into heaven so this verse promises he will return the same way which means he will step upon the Earth again.

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Since the reign is on the earth then we know this same reign is also on the earth:

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I think it's 6 times.

Wow. I may have remembered wrong…

 

[ewq1938]

Wow. I may have remembered wrong…

Actually first resurrection appears twice. I was thinking of "thousand years". That's mentioned 6 times.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Well once again, I really enjoyed talking with you guys today! Thanks to all.

 

[Taken]

God's Purpose is to test us. 1 Peter 4:12
Our task is to keep strong in our faith and to continue to be His witnesses and the Light to the nations.
The cruncher is the verses which say: We must endure until the end. Matthew 24:13, Revelation 13:10, 2 Cor 10:13

To a place far away on earth, where Satans army can't get to. Revelation 12:14-16
When? Exactly 1280 days before Jesus Returns.

So, you are subject to Wrath, earthquakes, fires, bullets....because...
You are being tested?
And all of a sudden you are going to be a Beacon to the Jews?

 

[Taken]

Yes, this is a good thing to think on, a day as a thousand years, and a thousand years as a day, but because both are nothing to Him.

Again, of course, I want more time to read and digest, but your post fills out much more Jesus' declaration "It is finished".

Much love!

Couple of things to ponder, toss in the mix...
* Nothing new under the sun, what was shall be.
* as it was in Noah’s day, so shall it be again....few prepared.
Gods Wrath.
For 7 days Noah was in the ark, Before the rains Started.
1st Great tribulation...Flood destruction...Faithful Noah Saved raised up to clouds, above the face of the earth.
Woes, to earth inhabitants.
Gods Wrath.
2nd & Last Great tribulation...Quakes, Fires, armies destruction...Faithful Converted Saved raise up to the clouds, above the face of the earth 7 years.
Woes, to earth inhabitants.

 

[Enoch111]

Wow. I may have remembered wrong…

You could use the word "disremembered".:cool:

 

[No Pre-TB]

I was looking at this thread and thought....why not :)

As I read through countless claims of it's "pre-wrath" or it's "Pre-TB", I can't help but ask myself, are they reading what they are even posting?

How about we all sit back and instead of posting 50 different reasons which lead to 50 different other questions, which none of them really get answered, and we start from the beginning?

Pre-TB says the rapture is at Rev 4:1. Even though, 30 years ago and some would believe (and still do) the rapture is at Rev 3:10. Sadly, the latter has been in many published books over the last 40 years, but now most acknowledge that Rev 3:10 has nothing to do with a rapture.
So what about Rev 4:1? Ok, I'll post it and I'll highlight the key words they use.

1After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Case closed right? Lell, let's see. We are missing just a tad few things between Rev 3 and Rev 4:1.

1. The glorious appearing
2. The Bema seat judgment
3. The archangel
4. The last trumpet
5. The last day
6. The resurrection of the dead; which is MUCH greater then any rapture of those who alive and remain (remain from what catastrophe?)
7. Any saint at all? There is no great multitude, there is no innumerable group from every nation, tongue tribe or people present here
8. Christ coming in the clouds
9. Any mention of wrath. How do we go to heaven on the same day wrath occurs when there is no wrath present? He doesnt even open the seals till later.
10. Any mention of a reward

But you know what. Strike all that from the record. Semantics, right? Yeah, who cares. We got a door and a trumpet like voice and a come up hither. Even though other scriptures have those same things and they arnt the rapture too right? Let's strike that from the record as well.

Let's go back and focus on that possible rapture verse. So, when we all are going to be raptured, I'll post below exactly what is in the verse that according to Pre-TB will happen to us and you tell me.

A door opens in heaven, Pre-TB takes this literally right Mark? We will see a door in the sky. We go in this door and a trumpet, which is really a voice (not a last trumpet or even a first) and it says come up hither. Case closed? Nope. There's more. Once we go up hither and we are in heaven, the voice then says to ALL the raptured, "I will show you the things which must be hereafter".

So Pre-TBers. What is God going to show us after we are raptured that is future? Oh and why spiritualize John as the Church universal? I thought we weren't supposed to do that? Yet 99% of Pre-TBers will explain eisegesis and hermeneutics and all these fancy words. But then they take John and spiritualize him into the Church body where nowhere in all the entire biblical text is John said to encompass the church. Yet you do this (Pre-TBers), you do the same thing you complain others do.

I mean, I could say the 2 witnesses who died and were told to come up hither has a better chance of being the church then Rev 4:1. They died, ascend into the clouds and were told to come up hither too. There is more on that chapter in regards to a rapture then here. And no, I'm not saying that is the rapture.

But isn't enough, when we have illogical statements and incompatibilities? You stick to your guns not because they are right, but you are on the defensive. I'm not here to put you on defense or to say you are wrong. I'm writing this to say, look at the facts and decide yourself. Only you can do it. But we don't have to stop here. We can talk about what's next: 24 elders, the seals, the 144k, the beast of the earth, the beast of the sea, the kingdom, the bowls, the actual resurrection of the dead.

BTW, I was Pre-TB for over 30 years. My home church is currently Pre-TB. My Father and mother, my grandparents were all Pre-TB. So I understand your thought process on the subject. I know what you been taught. And I am not Pre-TB and I am not Pre wrath.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

You could use the word "disremembered".:cool:

Oh I’ll probably forget that.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I was looking at this thread and thought....why not :)

As I read through countless claims of it's "pre-wrath" or it's "Pre-TB", I can't help but ask myself, are they reading what they are even posting?

How about we all sit back and instead of posting 50 different reasons which lead to 50 different other questions, which none of them really get answered, and we start from the beginning?

Pre-TB says the rapture is at Rev 4:1. Even though, 30 years ago and some would believe (and still do) the rapture is at Rev 3:10. Sadly, the latter has been in many published books over the last 40 years, but now most acknowledge that Rev 3:10 has nothing to do with a rapture.
So what about Rev 4:1? Ok, I'll post it and I'll highlight the key words they use.

1After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Case closed right? Lell, let's see. We are missing just a tad few things between Rev 3 and Rev 4:1.

1. The glorious appearing
2. The Bema seat judgment
3. The archangel
4. The last trumpet
5. The last day
6. The resurrection of the dead; which is MUCH greater then any rapture of those who alive and remain (remain from what catastrophe?)
7. Any saint at all? There is no great multitude, there is no innumerable group from every nation, tongue tribe or people present here
8. Christ coming in the clouds
9. Any mention of wrath. How do we go to heaven on the same day wrath occurs when there is no wrath present? He doesnt even open the seals till later.
10. Any mention of a reward

But you know what. Strike all that from the record. Semantics, right? Yeah, who cares. We got a door and a trumpet like voice and a come up hither. Even though other scriptures have those same things and they arnt the rapture too right? Let's strike that from the record as well.

Let's go back and focus on that possible rapture verse. So, when we all are going to be raptured, I'll post below exactly what is in the verse that according to Pre-TB will happen to us and you tell me.

A door opens in heaven, Pre-TB takes this literally right Mark? We will see a door in the sky. We go in this door and a trumpet, which is really a voice (not a last trumpet or even a first) and it says come up hither. Case closed? Nope. There's more. Once we go up hither and we are in heaven, the voice then says to ALL the raptured, "I will show you the things which must be hereafter".

So Pre-TBers. What is God going to show us after we are raptured that is future? Oh and why spiritualize John as the Church universal? I thought we weren't supposed to do that? Yet 99% of Pre-TBers will explain eisegesis and hermeneutics and all these fancy words. But then they take John and spiritualize him into the Church body where nowhere in all the entire biblical text is John said to encompass the church. Yet you do this, you do the same thing you complain others do.

I mean, I could say the 2 witnesses who died and were told to come up hither has a better chance of being the church then Rev 4:1. They died, ascend into the clouds and were told to come up hither too. There is more on that chapter in regards to a rapture then here. And no, I'm not saying that is the rapture.

But isn't enough, when we have illogical statements and incompatibilities? You stick to your guns not because they are right, but you are on the defensive. I'm not here to put you on defense or to say you are wrong. I'm writing this to say, look at the facts and decide yourself. Only you can do it. But we don't have to stop here. We can talk about what's next: 24 elders, the seals, the 144k, the beast of the earth, the beast of the sea, the kingdom, the bowls, the actual resurrection of the dead.

BTW, I was Pre-TB for over 30 years. My home church is currently Pre-TB. My Father and mother, my grandparents were all Pre-TB. So I understand your thought process on the subject. I know what you been taught. And I am not Pre-TB and I am not Pre wrath.

First, it’s nice to meet you.
Second, huh…?