The Pre-Trib Rapture

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marks

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I am weary of all modern Bible translations after the KJV, even the NKJV which does not actually follow the Textus Receptus closely like the KJV does, even though Nelson publishers claim it does.
I just don't even really look at them anymore, even the NKJV. I've spent too much time with the Greek texts that when I come to translations that aren't faithful to it, it's like a sore thumb, a neon sign.

I always like what Chuck Smith said about Bible reading, we need to be able to read without filters, to just take it in. For me to do that, I want the KJV, because for me, it's the closest to the sense of the Greek. And those very few places where they translate oddly, I know about them. And they are far fewer, far far fewer than other translations, especially the modern ones.

Much love!
 
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Taken

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LOL! You know me!

I did that the first time about 30 years ago. I did some others maybe 20 years ago or so. Spreadsheets word good, you can copy in entire passages, and link them to where you've copied in from other prophets. Being able to look at everything together on the same page was really helpful in seeing relationships between them, but yeah, you need a Really Big Page!

:)

Did the same years ago. Very involved.
 
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stunnedbygrace

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LOL! You know me!

I did that the first time about 30 years ago. I did some others maybe 20 years ago or so. Spreadsheets word good, you can copy in entire passages, and link them to where you've copied in from other prophets. Being able to look at everything together on the same page was really helpful in seeing relationships between them, but yeah, you need a Really Big Page!

:)

Lol. I take separate pages or index cards and write relevent vss or passages and move them around like a puzzle, trying to figure out where in time they go while trying very hard to not make assumptions and to look for clues on how to divide them. Psh, I’m a mess…and because prophecy jumps forward and backward, I have to cut up passages and end up with confetti. But I always understand more for having done it.
 
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Davy

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Well…consider how Noah escaped Gods wrath and Lot escaped Gods wrath. The conversation is more about wrath than temptation.

I rather see it as an “hour of testing” for the world rather than an hour of tempting, but that might be painting hairs on frogs.

But you really can’t say it is unbiblical that in the past God has removed the righteous before His wrath. There is ample precedence for it. I’ve met God fearing men with different views on it.

Yeah, I can say a rapture prior to the "great tribulation" is un-Biblical, simply because Lord Jesus showed His coming to gather His Church is AFTER... the tribulation, and I already referenced that to you from Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, but you never said a thing about those Scriptures.

So if you want to 'try' and twist my words, fine, but you will never... twist what Lord Jesus Himself revealed in His Word that I showed you.

Did God remove Moses and the children of Israel when He brought the plagues upon Egypt? No.

God didn't remove His Old Testament servants away from danger, He preserved them through danger, even as Noah was preserved through the flood.

And if you haven't yet recognized the symbology of God's two witnesses at the end in Revelation, and the plagues they will have power to do upon the beast, that is a parallel to the time of Moses and Aaron in Egypt. What happened in Egypt?

God protected the children of Israel from the plagues by His passover, and those of Israel that stayed sealed in their houses were not affected by the plagues. They were not physically removed, God protected them through... it.

So when the coming pseudo-Christ shows up in Jerusalem, and they build a new Jewish temple and start up sacrifices again, and then that false Messiah ends those sacrifices and sets up the "abomination of desolation" idol instead, and demands all to bow to him as God, then... you will know those men teaching a pre-trib rapture were false teachers.
 

stunnedbygrace

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Yeah, I can say a rapture prior to the "great tribulation" is un-Biblical, simply because Lord Jesus showed His coming to gather His Church is AFTER... the tribulation, and I already referenced that to you from Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, but you never said a thing about those Scriptures.

Well, if some become tribulation saints going through that testing, He would be gathering them after the tribulation. So it’s not so clear as you imagine it.
 

stunnedbygrace

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So if you want to 'try' and twist my words, fine, but you will never... twist what Lord Jesus Himself revealed in His Word that I showed you.

Gosh sakes, settle down. I’m not trying to twist your words, I’m having a conversation. :p
 

marks

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I rather see it as an “hour of testing” for the world rather than an hour of tempting, but that might be painting hairs on frogs.
In the Bible, tempting and testing are both used to translate the same word, peirasmos.

You are put to the test by a contrary circumstance. You can either hold out to do the righteous thing, or easy out doing the fleshy thing. Or that's how it comes across to us at the time. Something contrary we are to endure, but that we can choose the response.

The regenerate man will increasing choose the godly response, and this shows we are regenerate.

Where it says, no one is tempted beyond what he can endure, but that God with the temptation provides an escape from the temptation, the word there refers to a "save haven" as from a storm. That's how they used it, the sheltered bay that if you can get to it, you can ride out the storm.

The idea here is an intended destination.

Affliction words endurance, endurance works experience, experience works hope, and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God is shed abroad into our hearts.

The contrary things - afflictions - are intended to bring us to the expectation of God's working in us, and completing His work in us.

His love outpoured into our hearts, as I understand that expression, He's saying He is pouring His love out everwhere, but it's pouring into my heart, so that's the intent, His love poured into my heart is to be pouring out from me everywhere.

This "hour of testing" is to force the people of the world to give their Final Answer, to serve God or serve Satan. Testing is intended to reveal the reality of us, and who and what we are. The child of God will endure, and overcome, in increasing measure.

Much love!
 

Davy

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If it helps any, I think most will be left for more testing.

Sorry, but I have to laugh at your Biblical ignorance and your heeding men instead of studying God's Word for yourself.

Did you not know that at the end of Luke 17, Jesus showed to be left-behind is a GOOD thing, because it means NOT being gathered to where the fowls will be? You obviously never read that Scripture for yourself...

Luke 17:35-37
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said unto them, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."

KJV

Matt 24:28
28 "For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together."

KJV

Those pre-trib rapture preachers teaching such falseness that to be the first one taken is to escape by Christ ought to make you truly angry after you read Lord Jesus' answer to His disciples that asked "Where, Lord?" those first ones would be taken to!

Jesus showed those 1st ones taken are like a dead "carcase" gathered wheresover the fowls are gathered, to do what? To feast on dead carcases! That's the fate of the 1st ones taken per Jesus.
 

Taken

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I sure hope this is not the case. It seems to say we are saved in increments and, cannot buy that. How "saved" does one have to be to, well...be saved? And, what about those new to the faith...they sure are not complete in Him yet. Guess we will all find out one day.

Forgiven is forgiven of Sin Against God...done deal, can never again not believe in God. Confession to Him IS asking Him to ENTER us and KEEP us in faithful belief forever, BY His Power.

He saves our soul...Life IN the soul IS His breath, and will never depart.
He quickens our spirit...with His Seed. Spiritual spirits can never die, and can not be...”unborn” of God.

Improvement daily? Sure. Making our MINDS subject to our New spirits thoughts....He doesn’t “change” our MINDS.....that’s our own burden, works, job....whatever you want to call it. Some times called “frustration” ? Ha.
Continual prayer...is continual relationship...is continual His Spirit feeding our new spirit....His Truth and His Understanding of His Truth....(suppose that is the reflection of pray without ceasing)....maintaining the relationship, which strengthens us...and back to the spirits thoughts superseding the minds thoughts.
 
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stunnedbygrace

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I get these little flashback scenes in my head of what their arguments would have looked like back then. Like…no, He was not the Messiah because scripture plainly states that when He comes, He will restore the kingdom to Israel!! Stop saying He has already come because scripture is very clear on it!! Or…stop saying He comes from Nazareth or Bethlehem when scripture clearly states He will come from Egypt!!

We still do it….
 
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Davy

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There is one criteria given to show inclusion in this catching away,

1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 KJV
14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18) Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

The dead in Christ rise first, then we who are alive, remaining, will be caught up with them. We who? We in Christ. The dead in Christ rise first, the living in Christ are caught up to join them.

If you are "in Christ", this is you. If you are not "in Christ" this is not you.

Who are they that are "in Christ"?

Much love!

Yet you fail to show the WHEN that is to happen. Apostle Paul does not show the WHEN in that 1 Thessalonians 4 Chapter. But He does in the 2 Thessalonians 2 Chapter. And Jesus emphatically showed the WHEN of that in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27.
 

Taken

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Yet you fail to show the WHEN that is to happen. Apostle Paul does not show the WHEN in that 1 Thessalonians 4 Chapter. But He does in the 2 Thessalonians 2 Chapter. And Jesus emphatically showed the WHEN of that in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27.

BEFORE WRATH UPON THE EARTH.

1 Thes 5:
[9] For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
 

marks

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Yet you fail to show the WHEN that is to happen.
In that post I wasn't trying to show when, I was intending to address whether there is a partial rapture or not, and there is not, this is inclusive language.

But the gathering of Israel to their promised land is not the same thing as the gathering of Christians to Christ.

When are the OT faithful resurrected? Which day?

Much love!
 

Taken

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But dear, consider how you came to such un-Biblical thoughts, because there is no such thing as a Pre-trib rapture written of in God's Word, nor a Mid-trib rapture either. Please consider the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture that our Lord Jesus gave us.

There IS Gods Anger. There IS Gods Wrath upon the Earth. There IS an escape FROM Gods Wrath............for the Converted..................JUST AS there was an escape FROM Gods Wrath........during the FIRST Great Tribulation.
 

stunnedbygrace

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Sorry, but I have to laugh at your Biblical ignorance and your heeding men instead of studying God's Word for yourself.

Since I never heard a single man ever talk about anyone being left behind for more testing, that would be impossible. Furthermore, if you can’t manage to get your manners and tongue under control, our conversation will cease because I’m certainly not going to encourage you in it when it is harmful to you.
 
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Nancy

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Forgiven is forgiven of Sin Against God...done deal, can never again not believe in God. Confession to Him IS asking Him to ENTER us and KEEP us in faithful belief forever, BY His Power.

He saves our soul...Life IN the soul IS His breath, and will never depart.
He quickens our spirit...with His Seed. Spiritual spirits can never die, and can not be...”unborn” of God.

Improvement daily? Sure. Making our MINDS subject to our New spirits thoughts....He doesn’t “change” our MINDS.....that’s our own burden, works, job....whatever you want to call it. Some times called “frustration” ? Ha.
Continual prayer...is continual relationship...is continual His Spirit feeding our new spirit....His Truth and His Understanding of His Truth....(suppose that is the reflection of pray without ceasing)....maintaining the relationship, which strengthens us...and back to the spirits thoughts superseding the minds thoughts.

Love how you write Taken, you use only the words needed to get your point across!
"Some times called “frustration” ?" HA is right...MOSTLY called frustration in my world :D LIFE itself is frustration but, don't always respond the correct way...working on that ALL THE TIME.
 
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Taken

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Yeah, I can say a rapture prior to the "great tribulation" is un-Biblical, simply because Lord Jesus showed His coming to gather His Church is AFTER... the tribulation, and I already referenced that to you from Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, but you never said a thing about those Scriptures.

It is a Servant of the Lord who calls CHRIST’S CHURCH UP off the face of the Earth.

It is the Lord who descends from Heaven to meet Christ’s Church in the clouds/air.

WHAT does that have to do with the Son of man returning to Earth?
Nothing.

You are speaking of a completely different event.