The Pre-Trib Rapture

[David H.]

So again the Greek text doesn't make such a distinction, and the word itself is "any". Autos is in the verse, yes, I know that, and again, you can see from the syntax that it refers to the witnesses, not any who want to kill them. Twice John wrote that if any want to hurt them, and he could have said, "if any man", but he did not, and I don't approach the verse thinking he should have, rather, I look at what he DID write.

This just isn't a good argument when you look into the text itself.

some of The Greek texts themselves are the problem. Sinaiaticus is believed to be a forgery. some of the Nag Hamadi texts are outright Gnostic in origin, Vaticanus has many ommissions from the textus receptus and this use of autos is one of them. As I have said here before I am not a KJV only person, but every believer should study and be aware of the arguments of the KJV only side. The modern versions have hundreds of ommissions from the textus receptus that you should be aware because they are based on weaker Greek versions of the text, and some cases fraudulent and heretical versions of the text.

Apply it to the discussion. Don't just bandy about labels.

Most pre tribbers are hyper dispensationalists and this is where the concept of "tribulation saints" comes from, which is to say the saints of the church age are different from the saints of the tribulation. Saying someone is a hyper dispensationalist is not a "Label" but an observation of one's particular doctrine, just like we call someone Calvinist or Armenian. It's not an insult for me to say I as a dispensationalist am opposed to hyper dispensationalism, that is like me saying I believe that whomsoever will may come to salvation to a Calvinist.

As per pertaining to this discussion, Hyper dispensationalism says that Matthew 24 applies to Israel only not the church, and uses this to explain away the Olivet discourse problem. It also creates a class of people known as tribulation saints to explain away that saints are shown in Revelation enduring the mark of the beast and the Great tribulation.

 

[No Pre-TB]

Just as using Revelation 4:1 as a rapture proof text is interpretive, therefore not authorative, how is the absence of that as a proof text a proof against a Pre-trib rapture? I don't understand that.

Revelation 15:2 KJV
2) And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Is this then a "partial rapture" in your understanding? Those who were martyred by the beast? Or, do you see in this number all the living and dead in Christ?

Much love!

I don’t consider it a possibility to have a partial harpazo. These are over-comers signified by the crystal sea mixed with fire for refining. They are seen triumphant after patient endurance over the mark, and the beast etc demonstrating:
1. People will be saved during the Trumpets
2. If they can be saved and pass the hour of trial, they are not in God’s wrath.
Many support the idea the trumpets are all wrath. I do not. God’s Orge wrath is present, but what it is and what it’s purpose is, is another topic.

 

[marks]

For instance, I clearly see in scripture a pretrib gathering. I also see a mid trib gathering and, at the very least, it is two men. It’s not all as cut and dried as we believe it to be. We see far less things than the amount of things we haven’t yet seen.

Here's a quick summary of how I see this currently.

I see the dead and living in Christ gathered to Him, possibly in the opening of the 6th seal (earthquake rapture). I see the 7 seal to begin the 70th week. The church is raptured. The 144,000 are sealed, who will be tranlated into heaven at the middle of the week. The two witnesses ascend to heaven 3 days after the middle of the week. Jesus returns and Israel is gathered to the land, the nations are gathered and judged, the OT faithful are raised, and the wedding feast has come to begin the millennial reign.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I don’t consider it a possibility to have a partial harpazo.

OK, we're on the same page there!

:)

 

[No Pre-TB]

Ditto.

I don't use some of the "proofs" some do, so. As far as "moving goal posts", what I've found is that no one I've every discussed these things with holds the exact same view on all points, everyone has their own variations. Many don't go to deep with it, but that's what I've found.

So I've come to just look at the statements a person is making, or I'll ask them if they agree with this particular aspect that others think, things like that.

As far as discussing general versions of the various views, I prefer more to focus on what you and I ourselves think.

I can outline my general understanding of this end of the age time period if you wish, or we can leave it alone, just let me know.

Much love!

Sure, if you want to leave a brief outline, that would be great. Either here or even in a private message. Whatever works. :)

 

[marks]

2. If they can be saved and pass the hour of trial, they are not in God’s wrath.
Many support the idea the trumpets are all wrath. I do not. God’s Orge wrath is present, but what it is and what it’s purpose is, is another topic.

In the place where it says, We are not appointed to wrath, there is the interpretation that this refers to the wrath of final condemnation, not that a believer cannot be on the earth when God's wrath is upon the people of the earth.

Certain of the bowl plagues only affect the beast's kingdom, or those with the mark.

Interestingly, the 5th trumpet, the locust-things from the abyss, only the 144,000 are exempt from that, so if God has His children on the earth at that time, He will subject them to 5 months of unendurable torment that must be endured. Is that REALLY God's program for His children?

Salvation during the 70th week . . . what does it mean exactly and how does it compare to salvation previous to the 70th week? Why are the sheep judged to determine righteous and unrighteous? The church is not that way.

Much love!

 

[Timtofly]

But we need to stick to the message over a translation and the message is of a pure (virgin) innocent church. We are made pure and innocent through Jesus

We the church have no problem being called the bride of the Lamb but that doesn't mean that we are women.

The 144k are not called the bride nor the bridegroom. That is a personal opinion projected onto the 144k.

The Bible calls them virgins not defiled by women. The implication is that they are not females defiled by men. I do not think the Greek word for woman calls for any symbolism. That is just added personal opinion, extra biblical interpretation. The word virgin does not imply male nor female. The qualifying prepositional phrase "by woman" is the key.

Then to compare Scripture we know at the first coming, Jesus chose 12 male disciples. That was for the small area of Palestine and the Roman Empire in general, back when earth only had a population in the millions.

Compared today with billions of humans on earth, it is still a group of disciples divided up among the 12 twelve tribes. The number 12 may have some significance. But we know that Jacob had 12 sons. Jesus chose 12 disciples. Now at the Second Coming, there are 12,000 each from 12 representative modern day tribes of Jacob.

Yes the first 12 were the firstfruits of the church. But at the Second Coming, the church is absolutely gone. Christ will be on earth with the angels. The 144k are the firstfruits of the Millennium Kingdom, just like the 12 disciples were the firstfruits of the heavenly kingdom called Paradise. The 144k will work on earth during the earthly ministry of Jesus. Revelation 14 points out Christ and the 144k wait on Mt. Zion during the 42 months given to Satan. During those 42 months is when the 2 witnesses will be the only redeemed on the earth. Those who accept redemption during the 42 months, do so by having their heads chopped off. At that point they are physically dead, thus no redeemed will be living, but will be having their selves beheaded. Not a baptism by water, nor fire. That baptism will be by beheading. They will not enjoy life until physically resurrected in Revelation 20:4. Only then will they rule and reign which indicates their decision of faith is postponed, not that they endure Satan's 42 months. One can only be resurrected if they have no head.

Jesus, the 144k, and the angels have to have already come before Satan's 42 months which starts with the AoD. Until Jesus comes and sits on His glorious throne, there is nothing to abominate. If the Second Coming is after the 42 months all the redeemed will have already been beheaded and no one to rapture. The return in Revelation 19 is only to bring those 42 months to a close. It is not the Second Coming.

The Second Coming is before the angel seals the 144k, just like Jesus was baptized before the 12 disciples were chosen. Jesus and the angels have already arrived while the 144k are working in the final harvest. Just like Jesus sent out the original 12, the 144k will be involved in the earthly ministry of Jesus as Prince.

Revelation is not reinventing the first coming. It is revealing the Second Coming and the final harvest.

 

[marks]

Would be awesome if we knew FOR SURE...but if we do not then, shouldn't we be prepared regardless?

How do you mentally prepare yourself for 5 months of unendurable torment by some sort of supernatural "locust things" that swarm out of the abyss? To sting with torment for 5 months that you would try to die, but find you cannot?

This plague is against all but the 144,000 Israelites.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Here's a quick summary of how I see this currently.

I see the dead and living in Christ gathered to Him, possibly in the opening of the 6th seal (earthquake rapture). I see the 7 seal to begin the 70th week. The church is raptured. The 144,000 are sealed, who will be tranlated into heaven at the middle of the week. The two witnesses ascend to heaven 3 days after the middle of the week. Jesus returns and Israel is gathered to the land, the nations are gathered and judged, the OT faithful are raised, and the wedding feast has come to begin the millennial reign.

Much love!

Thanks for sharing how you see it. I’ve wondered about the one church that is told satan will throw them into prison for 10 days, so I’ve wondered if maybe ten awful days comes into play. But I do still see a pretrib AND a mid trib gathering.

 

[Timtofly]

Thanks.

That's what I'm getting at if "it's wife makes herself ready" is of feminine gender and the wife or the bride is the church (and the church is made up of males and females) then the 144 000 although comes as mescaline gender in the Greek then the 144 000 could easily include females

That is like asking if any of the original 12 disciples were female even if they have masculine names.

Those 144k are disciples, not representing any other group. The 12 disciples were part of the church, not the whole church of that day.

No one states that the 12 disciples were not distinct, but just symbolic wording for a huge group of both males and females who followed Jesus around. At the Second Coming people are not living out their lives as the church. That is not the point. They are literally being removed from Adam's corruptible flesh and blood. They are physically dying and their souls taken away from the earth. The enduring to the end part is for those who commit to Christ during the last 1991 years. The trouble concerned with living out one's faith in a hostile world.

At the Second Coming all flesh is leaving this hostile world, until only those hostile are left and destroyed at Armageddon.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

OK, we're on the same page there!

:)

Hmm…I think the Bible has many instances where a partial gathering happens, one man here, two men there. So it’s not an impossibility to my mind. One man walked with God and God took him. Another was taken away in a chariot. Two men come back to life and are taken in Revelation. That’s a partial rapture.

 

[Timtofly]

I see the 42months of the two witnesses as synonymous with the 42 months of the great tribulation and hence the beast ruling. They all occur the first half of the final week. The Great tribulation is to test the church, Israel will enter the wrath of God and drink thereof before they repent (Zechariah 12:10). That is why the 144000 are sealed after the rapture.

The contradictions and the forced parentheses are there in Revelation, and need to be either covered up or explained away to hold to the pretrib rapture view.

The 2 witnesses and their 42 months are the same 42 months given to Satan.

But after the GT, the Trumpets and Thunders. The final harvest comes first and Satan only gets the gleanings.

No where in Scripture are the gleanings gathered first and then a full blown harvest. At Armageddon the only souls left are those with the mark of the beast who have been removed from the Lamb's book of life, and will remain in Death, until the GWT.

The Second Coming happened when all on earth asked the rhetorical question, "Who can save us from the wrath of God"?

The rhetorical answer is given in the 7 vials, that one should accept Christ before the Second Coming, which happens like a thief and not something you wait to prepare for after the fact. It was already too late when they asked the question years before at the Second Coming.

Today is the day to be prepared, not during the 7 vials of God's wrath.

 

[marks]

These are over-comers signified by the crystal sea mixed with fire for refining.

Revelation 7:9-12 KJV
9) After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10) And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11) And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12) Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

Revelation 15:2-4 KJV
2) And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
3) And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
4) Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

This second group entered heaven through death. How did the first group enter?

Much love!

 

[Timtofly]

Do You see it? the rapture comes after the great tribulation. This is the plain reading of the text that shows this. Just like the preaching of the Gospel of the Kingdom precedes the abomination, and that abomination marks the beginning of the end in verse 14-15. Not to mention the plain and easily understood concept of childbirth Jesus uses of birth pains leading to the abomination and the great tribulation of birth and the sorrow turning to joy of the childbirth, which mirrors the Hebrew fall feasts exactly.

No because the exact reading would be, immediately after the "unprecedented" tribulation. Jesus says "those days". After the tribulation that would happen between the Cross and the fig tree blooming. If in fact Greek thought stipulates no exact timing, then all the trouble before the end is tribulation.

So Jesus is not saying immediately after certain tribulation. Obviously the Second Coming did not happen before, nor immediately after Stephen was martyred, and those days were still those days of tribulation. Tribulation was from Matthew 24:5-14.

"For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

All this tribulation has been non stop for the last 1991 years, the entire NT church period, called the fullness of the Gentiles. The Second Coming will bring that to a full stop. No more church. No more fullness of the Gentiles. No more choice to conform to the Holy Spirit. So Immediately after those days, is the Second Coming. It will be an immediate end.

Christ and the angels will be on earth during the most unprecedented time of trouble. All of Adam's flesh and blood will die. All harvested by the angels one by one. There are way more angels than humans currently alive on earth.

 

[marks]

Hmm…I think the Bible has many instances where a partial gathering happens, one man here, two men there. So it’s not an impossibility to my mind. One man walked with God and God took him. Another was taken away in a chariot. Two men come back to life and are taken in Revelation. That’s a partial rapture.

I mean this more on the lines of, the two witnesses will both ascend. If only one did, it would be a "partial". In the harpadzo, all "in Christ" will be caught up. If only some, that would be a partial. Like that.

Much love!

 

[Taken]

I don’t consider it a possibility to have a partial harpazo.

A harparzo is not partial, it’s exclusive, at A particular time.
It applies to some, and not others.

Salvation is not partial, it’s exclusive, at particular timeS.
It applies to some, and not others.

Division is not partial, it’s exclusive, at particular timeS.
It applies to all.

Separation is not partial, it’s exclusive, at particular timeS.
It applies to all.

 

[David H.]

The 2 witnesses and their 42 months are the same 42 months given to Satan.

I Agree with this part.

No because the exact reading would be, immediately after the "unprecedented" tribulation. Jesus says "those days". After the tribulation that would happen between the Cross and the fig tree blooming. If in fact Greek thought stipulates no exact timing, then all the trouble before the end is tribulation.

So Jesus is not saying immediately after certain tribulation. Obviously the Second Coming did not happen before, nor immediately after Stephen was martyred, and those days were still those days of tribulation. Tribulation was from Matthew 24:5-14.

Again, this betrays simple grammar and reading of the text.... When Jesus says "immediately after the tribulation of those days" he is pointing to the great tribulation as this is the only other "tribulation" he speaks of in the Olivet discourse.

 

[David H.]

All this tribulation has been non stop for the last 1991 years, the entire NT church period, called the fullness of the Gentiles. The Second Coming will bring that to a full stop. No more church. No more fullness of the Gentiles. No more choice to conform to the Holy Spirit. So Immediately after those days, is the Second Coming. It will be an immediate end.

I Agree with this part, all this is speaking of the birth pangs and is a 1991-year (Or however many years it has been) tribulation of which John was a partaker of (Revelation 1:9), But this is not the tribulation Jesus is speaking of in verses 29-31, and he never uses the word tribulation to describe the birth pangs.

I do believe as some pretribbers do that the first five seals are the church age, and we are awaiting the sixth to be opened and the rapture to occur, thus there is an "immanency" to the rapture, but Jesus is clear there are precursor events one of which is the great tribulation and the mark of the beast, and the abomination. 2 Thessalonians 2, Revelation corroborate this timeline, not contradict it.

I Believe the Great tribulation is the first half of the final week, followed by the day of Christ and rapture which is concurrent with the rapture of the two witnesses at the seventh trumpet. I Believe the trumpets are the plagues that the two witnesses cause. After the testimony of the 2 witnesses is done they lay in the street 3.5 days and are resurrected, which marks the day of Christ, the day "that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great;" (Revelation 11:18)

 

[Nancy]

How do you mentally prepare yourself for 5 months of unendurable torment by some sort of supernatural "locust things" that swarm out of the abyss? To sting with torment for 5 months that you would try to die, but find you cannot?

This plague is against all but the 144,000 Israelites.

Much love!

Was NOT speaking of Gods wrath but Satan's persecution. Prepared with STRONG faith.

 

[No Pre-TB]

This second group entered heaven through death. How did the first group enter?

Marks, they entered through widespread persecution. But to go back to your first point, we dont know if the second group died. It only tells us "had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name,".
Nothing in there denotes death.