The Pre-Trib Rapture

[Taken]

Yeah, right. Just like you never heard of the Pre-tribulational Rapture theory from men either.

You reject a mans THEORY....irrelevant.

Do you ALSO reject Gods Word...of HOW He SAVED Noah from Gods Wrath upon the Earth?
Do you ALSO reject Gods Word...of HOW He shall SAVE the Converted from Gods Wrath upon the Earth?

* Converted men ACCEPT the Lords WORD to KEEP a Converted man FROM Gods Last Great Wrath upon the Earth....BY the Works of God to RAISE THEM ABOVE THE FACE OF THE EARTH.....
* JUST Faithful God, Raised FAITHFUL Noah ABOVE THE FACE OF THE EARTH....during Gods Works of His First Great WRATH upon the Earth.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

If you're gonna' try and rely on men's dictionaries instead of the direct Word of Lord Jesus there at the end of Luke 17, then your soul is definitely in trouble.

If something has been translated from Greek to English and you want to know the different definitions of the Greek word (but you don’t speak Greek) how else will you do it but to look at a Greek dictionary? It’s like…if I, an English speaker, said to someone who didn’t know English very well, hey that’s cool! They might be confused because they’ve understood cool to mean a temperature and it was sweltering hot outside when I said it, so they might later look the word up in an English dictionary to see the different definitions to try to glean what I meant.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Yeah, right. Just like you never heard of the Pre-tribulational Rapture theory from men either.

It’s okay if you don’t believe me that I’ve never heard anyone else speak of that but I really have never run across it.
As for pretrib, of course I’ve heard men speak of it. But first, I was just reading my Bible alone for some months and had great confusion because some verses seemed to say the righteous were removed first and others that the wicked were removed first. So after a few months I did begin to speak with and read from others and heard about pretrib.

I think, hold onto your hat, that all the eschatological views are correct! And in the Bible we can read that they had arguments about where Messiah would come from because some verses seemed to say from Nazareth, some seemed to say from Egypt and some from Bethlehem. Yet we read men saying things like - psh! Does anythinggood come from Nazareth?. And, tsk! Search the scriptures for yourself, He clearly comes from such and such! And they ALL were right as it played out!!

 

[No Pre-TB]

That's not the rapture.

Some people teach this, some do not. I do not, myself. That was John being called to heaven, not the church.

We can talk about all of it if you wish.

There are some faulty foundations presented in support of all the views, but there are good foundations for correct views.

You've chosen a proof I don't use, so I don't know how far we can go with that.



So actually I don't. You've spent a good amount of space arguing against a point I don't make. Did you happen to see the actual reasons why I think pre-trib?

Much love!

Marks,
When I said, “yet you do this”, which you highlighted- I was speaking generally of Pre-TB, not specifically you. Pre-TB like any other eschatological theory will have those that agree/disagree on parts, but still follow its or another’s “basic” portions. I know of some Pre-TBs that move the goal post. They believe the rapture is after the 6th seal, but maintain they are raptured before the event. When I speak of Pre-TB, it’s general Pre-TB in its most basic common form. Hope that helps.

Glad we can be civil and discuss. :)

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Glad we can be civil and discuss. :)

Amen!!

 

[No Pre-TB]

It’s okay if you don’t believe me that I’ve never heard anyone else speak of that but I really have never run across it.
As for pretrib, of course I’ve heard men speak of it. But first, I was just reading my Bible alone for some months and had great confusion because some verses seemed to say the righteous were removed first and others that the wicked were removed first. So after a few months I did begin to speak with and read from others and heard about pretrib.

I think, hold onto your hat, that all the eschatological views are correct! And in the Bible we can read that they had arguments about where Messiah would come from because some verses seemed to say from Nazareth, some seemed to say from Egypt and some from Bethlehem. Yet we read men saying things like - psh! Does anythinggood come from Nazareth?. And, tsk! Search the scriptures for yourself, He clearly comes from such and such! And they ALL were right as it played out!!

I think that could be difficult to demonstrate. If all eschatology views were correct, it’s mixing up timelines for the 70th week, where wrath is or isn’t, multiple places for the resurrection etc. There are only 2 resurrections listed: the just and unjust. Those at Christ coming and those at the final judgment. If we accept all views, we increase that number and bring in confusion.

edit: I realize that a family church’s belief sometimes makes it difficult to accept anything else. Also, if you’re schooled that way, it may be harder as well. Many popular Christian styled Universities teach Pre-TB. Liberty U, Bob Jones, Pensacola to name a few.

 

[No Pre-TB]

Here’s another:

When we look into Rev 4:6, where Pre-TB will say we are now in heaven in that Ch., why is the crystal sea absent of…people? Yet in Rev 15:2, the same crystal sea now has over-comers standing on it. This happens before the bowls are poured. How do people miss the resurrection and rapture (there are only 2 resurrections and 1 harpazo) according to Pre-TB, and yet find themselves on the crystal sea before the bowls of wrath are poured out? Hmm…

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I think that could be difficult to demonstrate. If all eschatology views were correct, it’s mixing up timelines for the 70th week, where wrath is or isn’t, multiple places for the resurrection etc. There are only 2 resurrections listed: the just and unjust. Those at Christ coming and those at the final judgment. If we accept all views, we increase that number and bring in confusion.

edit: I realize that a family church’s belief sometimes makes it difficult to accept anything else. Also, if you’re schooled that way, it may be harder as well. Many popular Christian styled Universities teach Pre-TB. Liberty U, Bob Jones, Pensacola to name a few.

I don’t think they are all entirely correct. I think they all have a correct piece.

 

[Timtofly]

Ok I think I understand how you explain away the Olivet discourse problem, and that is to say Christ was jumping around and answeringthe questions in no particular order. Correct?

For me personally i take Christ at his word that he was describing events in the order they occurred, and the simplicity of this is that he is describing the end of the age as a birthing process. first you have birth pangs which occur over time, which for me is the entire church age which is the general tribulation of which John says he himself was a partaker in (Revelation 1:9) Then comes the water breaks (Abomination) and you have Great tribulation, and then after that the sorrow turns to joy with the Birth of the child.

Not jumping around. Jesus tells us in Matthew 24 all that happens up until the end. Then Jesus gets specific. But the last thing in the specific list was the fig tree. But we know the fig tree already happened. So the next event after the fig tree is the Second Coming. Jesus will be on earth after the Second Coming for the time of GT. That is the final harvest with the angels also on earth. But the last 42 months is given to Satan if there are any gleanings after the final harvest.

The order Jesus gave was Satan's 42 months followed by the GT, followed by the Second Coming followed by the blooming of the fig tree. So Israel becoming a nation is the last event. Thus some say Israel is really not a nation yet. So the only sign will be if taking the OD literally as given, Satan takes the gleanings first. Then there will be a time of GT. Then Jesus and the angels arrive with "nothing" to do, since it already happened. Then Israel will become a Nation. Which also has already happened historically.

 

[marks]

so instead of "none" it says any man.

So again the Greek text doesn't make such a distinction, and the word itself is "any". Autos is in the verse, yes, I know that, and again, you can see from the syntax that it refers to the witnesses, not any who want to kill them. Twice John wrote that if any want to hurt them, and he could have said, "if any man", but he did not, and I don't approach the verse thinking he should have, rather, I look at what he DID write.

This just isn't a good argument when you look into the text itself.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

This is weird but…Daniel was told to seal up the book, then John was told to eat a book. I think he ate the book of Daniel…then saw more…weird but true!

 

[marks]

funny....

Hyperdispensationalism - Wikipedia

Apply it to the discussion. Don't just bandy about labels.

Hyper whatever, it just replaced meaningful discussion, and is nothing more than name calling.

This is again moving downhill, so we should stop.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Partial rapture, what is that? You mean the saints still alive vs. the asleep saints that are with Jesus and He brings with Him when He comes, I assume.

Some people have the view that the rapture of the church will be for those who have a certain level of holiness and/or righteousness in their thinking and behavior so as to be considered "worthy" to be taken in the Rapture, while those who fall below whatever their particular standard is are "left behind", to be "purified" from such things as rendered them "unworthy" by being given over to the beast in the great tribulation.

So some born again Christians are taken, and some born again Christians are left to be fixed by the trib.

I do not hold to this view. I believe when we are reborn, it is so by our being immersed into Christ, and we are, simply, in Christ. When this catching away comes, it will be for those who are "in Christ", regardless of our behavioral state at the time.

I've heard it put in terms of, "only those abiding in Christ", or other ways. I find that concept wholly contrary to the Gospel of grace and reconciliation in Jesus Christ.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Yes, there's 2 groups of saints Paul is covering there in 1 Thessalonians 4. The saints that are dead rise first, and Jesus brings them with Him when He comes, according to Apostle Paul. Then the saints still alive on earth Jesus gathers with Him and the risen saints, and they all go to Jerusalem where Jesus' feet touch down upon the Mount of Olives. Oh, Paul didn't cover that last bit in 1 Thessalonians 4, did he? No, but God did by His prophet in Zechariah 14, and there's certainly no need to repeat that Zechariah 14 event since by the time of Paul the faithful saints had already read that and knew it.

So how is it that most pre-trib rapture theory churches do not... know about that Zechariah 14 Scripture that reveals where Jesus is coming to once He gathers His Church?

So here's a question for you . . . how does the gathering of the church relate to the gathering of Israel to the promised land?

Much love!

 

[marks]

When I said, “yet you do this”, which you highlighted- I was speaking generally of Pre-TB, not specifically you.

Sorry! No worries!

Swept up into an over-generalization . . .

Much love!

 

[marks]

Glad we can be civil and discuss.

Ditto.

I don't use some of the "proofs" some do, so. As far as "moving goal posts", what I've found is that no one I've every discussed these things with holds the exact same view on all points, everyone has their own variations. Many don't go to deep with it, but that's what I've found.

So I've come to just look at the statements a person is making, or I'll ask them if they agree with this particular aspect that others think, things like that.

As far as discussing general versions of the various views, I prefer more to focus on what you and I ourselves think.

I can outline my general understanding of this end of the age time period if you wish, or we can leave it alone, just let me know.

Much love!

 

[marks]

It's just not clear to you. But it should be. I'm only trying to prevent being deceived to the coming false messiah that will come first which our Lord Jesus warned us about.

How would that happen?

How does my thinking the rapture will be pre-trib, how exactly does that expose me to the risk you are talking about?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Here’s another:

When we look into Rev 4:6, where Pre-TB will say we are now in heaven in that Ch., why is the crystal sea absent of…people? Yet in Rev 15:2, the same crystal sea now has over-comers standing on it. This happens before the bowls are poured. How do people miss the resurrection and rapture (there are only 2 resurrections and 1 harpazo) according to Pre-TB, and yet find themselves on the crystal sea before the bowls of wrath are poured out? Hmm…

Just as using Revelation 4:1 as a rapture proof text is interpretive, therefore not authorative, how is the absence of that as a proof text a proof against a Pre-trib rapture? I don't understand that.

Revelation 15:2 KJV
2) And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Is this then a "partial rapture" in your understanding? Those who were martyred by the beast? Or, do you see in this number all the living and dead in Christ?

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I don’t think they are all entirely correct. I think they all have a correct piece.

For instance, I clearly see in scripture a pretrib gathering. I also see a mid trib gathering and, at the very least, it is two men. It’s not all as cut and dried as we believe it to be. We see far less things than the amount of things we haven’t yet seen.

 

[Nancy]

By protection, NOT removal. Isaiah 41:13, Isaiah 43:2, +

I have to agree with you brother. We are NOT appointed to His wrath, but nowhere does it say we will escape "Satan's" persecution.
I no longer have a stance on the "Pre-Trib. rapture" as, what I understand can go both ways so, just being prepared EITHER WAY is all we should care about anyhow. And, will tell anyone else who teaches a "for sure" pre trib. rapture.
Would be awesome if we knew FOR SURE...but if we do not then, shouldn't we be prepared regardless?