HERESY?

[GodsGrace]

Of course words have meaning and they are used in a certain way. For instance, John 3:16 informs us Jesus was created, begotten - as all sons are. It’s so funny how trinitarians parse such synonyms into antonyms.

Scripture contains no such verse as contained in the question of your last post, ‘the 2nd person of the trinity.’ That such language usage is absent is telling.

I accept that you do not believe in the Trinity.
I'm not here to convince you that it is true.
Those reading along will make up their own minds.

The word begotten does not mean made/created.
If you're Christian you must accept the creeds.
The very first was the Nicene Creed which states that Jesus is
BEGOTTEN - NOT MADE.
Begotten does not mean MADE/CREATED. It only means unique.

Do you believe what Jesus taught?
Do you believe what Peter taught?
Ignatius of Antioch was a student of Peter.

Here is what he said:

God Himself was manifest in human form for the renewal of eternal life.
Ignatius 105AD

Continue in intimate union with Jesus Christ, our God.
Ignatius 105AD

I pray for your happiness forever in our God, Jesus Christ.
Ignatius 105AD

and many others, for example:

Next to God, we worship and love the Word, who is from the unbegotten
and ineffable God.
Justin Martyr (160AD)

 

[GodsGrace]

How do YOU define God?
How do YOU define Jesus?
Does everything about God have to be logical?
Why didn't He think of another way of saving us instead of crucifying Jesus?
Is Jesus' death of any value?
Why?

I don't understand about the language usage.
I don't know what you mean.
Don't words have meaning?

I don't believe you ever answered the above.
I'd be interested in knowing what or who you believe Jesus to be.

You did answer that words have meaning and quoted John 3:16 where the word BEGOTTEN is used.
I replied on my post just before this one.

Could you answer the first part?
Thanks.

 

[GodsGrace]

PART 2.

1. 
   
2. Attributes of Christ show that He is God
   Jesus Christ knows all things (John 1:48; 2:25; 6:64; 14:30; 21:17). He is all-powerful (Matt. 28:18; Heb. 1:3), sinless (John 8:46), eternal (Mic. 5:2), and unchanging (Heb. 13:8). Since only God possesses these attributes, Christ must be God.
   
   
3. The works of Christ show that He is God.
   Jesus Christ has the power to forgive sins (Mark 2:5-7; Eph. 1:7), give eternal life (John 10:28; 17:2), judge the world (John 5:22, 27), and control nature (Matt. 8:26). Since only God can do these things, Christ must be God.
   
   
4. Christ received worship as God.
   Jesus is worshipped by the angels (Heb. 1:6) and by man (Matt. 14:33), and yet only God is to be worshipped (Ex. 34:14). Christ Himself said that worship is due to God alone (Matt. 4:10), and yet He accepted worship. If Jesus in His pre-existent state were the archangel Michael, how could He have received worship, since angels are not allowed to receive worship (Rev. 19:10)? If Christ were not God, then worshipping Him would be idolatrous.
   
   
5. Jesus Christ as “the mighty God” in Isa 9:6.
   JW’s have a ready answer for this verse. They explain that Christ is “the mighty god.” but not “the almighty.” They say that Christ is the mighty, never the almighty and that Jehovah is the almighty God, never the mighty. However, Jer 32:18 shows that Jehovah is the mighty One. Therefore, since Christ is the mighty God (Isa 9:6) and Jehovah is the mighty God (Jer. 32:18), they are both God. They both possess full deity.
   
   
6. Christ is God, the Creator of all things according to Col1:15-17.
   JW’s refer to this passage to support their teaching that Christ was created by Jehovah (for example, Let God Be True, p.35). This is based primarily on the words, “the firstborn of all creation,” in verse 15. However, if this verse was teaching that Jesus Christ is the first created being made by God, the word “first-created” would have been used of Christ, not the word “firstborn.” These are two different words in the Greek, with two different meanings. “First-created” is protoktistos, and “firstborn” is prototokos. Col 1:15 does not use the protoktistos, “first-created.” Instead it uses prototokos, which means an heir, a begotten one, the first in rank. The teaching of Col 1:15 is that Christ is first in rank above all creation; He is the Heir of all things. He is prior to all creation and superior over it.
   
   The JW’s New World Translation adds the word “other” four times in Col1:15-17, so that the passage states that Christ created “all other things,” everything except Himself. However, there is no basis for adding “other.” It certainly does not occur in the Greek manuscripts. The translators of the New World Translation admit this by putting “other” in brackets. This “translation” attempts to comply with the assumption that firstborn means first-created. But, as shown, this is not the meaning of firstborn, and therefore it is also wrong to add the word “other.” There is no verse in the entire Bible that states that Christ was created by Jehovah!
   
   
7. Christ claimed to be equal with God in John 10:30.
   JW’s believe that this verse, “I and the Father are one,” means that Christ was one with God the Father in purpose and not in nature and essence. However, if that was all Christ was saying, why did the Jews want to stone Him? They themselves thought His purpose was the same as God’s. Verse 33 of John 10 explains that they wanted to stone Him because of blasphemy, because He claimed to be God!

The deity of Christ is the central point of the Scriptures. It clearly teaches that Christ is God. The teachings of the JW's concerning Jesus Christ clearly contradict the teachings of the Bible. Passages such as Phil 2:5-11 tell us that Jesus Christ, who existed as God, took the bodily form of a humble servant so that He could die on the cross in our place. “Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (kurios), to the glory of God the Father.”

I admire the time and work you put into your posts.

 

[Wrangler]

You avoided my question..

Your questions are to attack and manipulate, not to learn.

And "Believing a man is god" is WHO?

Believing any human is a god is a cult. What are you asking me? You brought up cults and meet the definition of a cult yourself.

Turning this into a question is you avoiding the truth of cult worship.

 

[Brakelite]

If you're Christian you must accept the creeds.

Why must a Christian accept a man made Creed? The word of God is the foundation of Christian faith and practise, not man's opinion of it.

 

[Wrangler]

to be continued in next post

Don't bother. Repeating your doctrine, reading words into Scripture that which is not there, is not edifying. The trinity is not in the Bible - not the word and not the doctrine. Jesus did not teach the trinity. There is not verse that says anything like, The nature of God is a trinity - consisting of the F, S & HS who are co-equal, co-substantial, & co-eternal - and if you do not believe this you cannot be saved. Inconvenient facts. It makes one wonder why trinitarians make this absent doctrine their central principle, to violate the 1C?

 

[Wrangler]

The word begotten does not mean made/created.

Try consulting your favorite lexicon. Begotten means procreated, which means created.

 

[GodsGrace]

Don't bother. Repeating your doctrine, reading words into Scripture that which is not there, is not edifying. The trinity is not in the Bible - not the word and not the doctrine. Jesus did not teach the trinity. There is not verse that says anything like, The nature of God is a trinity - consisting of the F, S & HS who are co-equal, co-substantial, & co-eternal - and if you do not believe this you cannot be saved. Inconvenient facts. It makes one wonder why trinitarians make this absent doctrine their central principle, to violate the 1C?

Does the bible state that we should not put drugs into our body?

 

[GodsGrace]

Why must a Christian accept a man made Creed? The word of God is the foundation of Christian faith and practise, not man's opinion of it.

Because Backlit
It's your beliefs that make you a Christian.
The early creeds were written to combat heresies
Or there would be NO CHRISTIANITY by now.
It would have died out a long time ago.
In fact, just a couple of hundred years after Jesus' death.

For example, if you believe in reincarnation, you cannot call yourself a Christian.

It's not up to you, or @Wrangler or @Aunty Jane to make up your own idea of what Christianity is.

The word Christian should not appear under your avatar name.

 

[Wrangler]

Does the bible state that we should not put drugs into our body?

See below - and stop changing the subject.

Try consulting your favorite lexicon. Begotten means procreated, which means created.

 

[Marymog]

So apart from the least important part of my post, do you have anything to add by way of defense?
There was much more to my post that you have not addressed at all....
HERESY?

Hi Jane,

In my original response I should have addressed everything you wrote, and I didn't do that. I remember at the time I knew it would be a waste of time for me to do so but I should have let you know that. I apologize. So, at your request, I will address it now:

I think you have this backwards. I am not defending anything, and I don't have to defend anything. The teaching that Jesus is God has been taught and defended against for 2,000 years by Christian men greater than me and the men of your denomination. I hold to that original teaching of Christianity. The teaching you follow was declared a heresy in the 2nd century (Adoptionism, Docetism) and once again in the 4th century (Arianism)...among other times. YOU are defending what has long been considered a heretical teaching.

So, in summary, I appreciate you taking the time to give a defense for what you have been taught. All that I ask you to do is study a little more and find the truth. Instead of believing what the men of your denomination have taught you please do your own research.

Mary

 

[GodsGrace]

See below - and stop changing the subject.

It doesn't.
So why is it a sin?

And how about answering my entire post instead of choosing what you like and how about backing up your statements as I do.

Otherwise it's just your opinion and our personal opinions are of no value .

 

[Wrangler]

And how about answering

I've answered. It's just your questions are nothing but forms of attack, one logical fallacy after another. Yet, you do not answer my questions.

Don't bother. Repeating your doctrine, reading words into Scripture that which is not there, is not edifying. The trinity is not in the Bible - not the word and not the doctrine. Jesus did not teach the trinity. There is no verse that says anything like, The nature of God is a trinity - consisting of the F, S & HS who are co-equal, co-substantial, & co-eternal - and if you do not believe this you cannot be saved. Inconvenient facts. It makes one wonder why trinitarians make this absent doctrine their central principle, to violate the 1C?

Admit there is no trinity verse like above in Scripture? Why trinitarians make this absent doctrine their central principle, to violate the 1C?

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi Jane,

In my original response I should have addressed everything you wrote, and I didn't do that. I remember at the time I knew it would be a waste of time for me to do so but I should have let you know that. I apologize. So, at your request, I will address it now:

I think you have this backwards. I am not defending anything, and I don't have to defend anything. The teaching that Jesus is God has been taught and defended against for 2,000 years by Christian men greater than me and the men of your denomination. I hold to that original teaching of Christianity. The teaching you follow was declared a heresy in the 2nd century (Adoptionism, Docetism) and once again in the 4th century (Arianism)...among other times. YOU are defending what has long been considered a heretical teaching.

So, in summary, I appreciate you taking the time to give a defense for what you have been taught. All that I ask you to do is study a little more and find the truth. Instead of believing what the men of your denomination have taught you please do your own research.

Mary

Hi Mary
This is how I feel right now,,,

 

[GodsGrace]

I've answered. It's just your questions are nothing but forms of attack, one logical fallacy after another. Yet, you do not answer my questions.



Admit there is no trinity verse like above in Scripture? Why trinitarians make this absent doctrine their central principle, to violate the 1C?

I think you're incapable of having a serious discussion.

I think you're unable to support your view.

Just stop writing to me and wasting my little time on here.

You have NOTHING of substance to say.
What fallacy is that?

 

[GodsGrace]

I've answered. It's just your questions are nothing but forms of attack, one logical fallacy after another. Yet, you do not answer my questions.



Admit there is no trinity verse like above in Scripture? Why trinitarians make this absent doctrine their central principle, to violate the 1C?

LOL
But not wasting my time telling you why your comment is..

 

[Marymog]

Hi Mary
This is how I feel right now,,,

View attachment 19455

Exhausted? We each see images in our own way based on our life experiences so I'm seeing the image as her being exhausted! Did I get it right?

 

[Marymog]

It doesn't.
So why is it a sin?

And how about answering my entire post instead of choosing what you like and how about backing up your statements as I do.

Otherwise it's just your opinion and our personal opinions are of no value .

Wrangler is full of opinion. He is exhausting....

 

[farouk]

I accept that you do not believe in the Trinity.
I'm not here to convince you that it is true.
Those reading along will make up their own minds.

The word begotten does not mean made/created.
If you're Christian you must accept the creeds.
The very first was the Nicene Creed which states that Jesus is
BEGOTTEN - NOT MADE.
Begotten does not mean MADE/CREATED. It only means unique.

Do you believe what Jesus taught?
Do you believe what Peter taught?
Ignatius of Antioch was a student of Peter.

Here is what he said:

God Himself was manifest in human form for the renewal of eternal life.
Ignatius 105AD

Continue in intimate union with Jesus Christ, our God.
Ignatius 105AD

I pray for your happiness forever in our God, Jesus Christ.
Ignatius 105AD

and many others, for example:

Next to God, we worship and love the Word, who is from the unbegotten
and ineffable God.
Justin Martyr (160AD)

@GodsGrace The Lord Jesus is indeed not a created being; He is God incarnate. The One Who was given (John 3.16) was God's Son already.

 

[Moriah's Song]

Try consulting your favorite lexicon. Begotten means procreated, which means created.

You are seriously wrong Wrangler....

Strong's 1080 - begotten (γεννάω)
c. after Psalm 2:7, it is used of God making Christ his son;

α. formally to show him to be the Messiah (υἱὸν τοῦ θεοῦ), viz. by the resurrection: Acts 13:33.
β. to be the author of the divine nature which he possesses [but compare the commentaries on the passages that follow]: Hebrews 1:5; Hebrews 5:5.​

Act 13:33...this he has fulfilled to us their children by raising Jesus; as also it is written in the second psalm, 'Thou art my Son, today I have begotten thee.'
Heb 1:5...For to what angel did God ever say, "Thou art my Son, today I have begotten thee"? Or again, "I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son"?
Heb 5:5...So also Christ did not exalt himself to be made a high priest, but was appointed by him who said to him, "Thou art my Son, today I have begotten thee";
​

Where in these verses does God say that He created the Son?

Jesus was born through a woman named Mary. How could Jesus possibly have been created then?

Not only that but Jesus was already 33 years old when God said that "Jesus will be a Son to me."