HERESY?

[Moriah's Song]

33 Another parable He spoke to them: “The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened.” Matthew 13:33

mp, I acturally disagree with your interpretation of "leaven never representing something good in the spiritual sense."

Leaven is just yeast and Jesus used it both ways....

Mat 16:12 "Then they understood that he did not tell them to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sad'ducees.​

In the OT loaves of bread was a "wave offering" that was placed on the alter at certain times but it could not have yeast/leaven in it. But the interesting thing is that on the Day of Passover, Jesus, for the first time used leavened breasd at the Last Supper. Why the change? Because it was to represent his resurrection from death to life whereas the teaching of the Pharisees represented the false teachings and burdens of the Pharisees.

Our pastor does not know this and we have those "paper-like-tasteless white thingys" that Catholics use. I'm waiting for an opportunity to "enlighten" him!:cool:

 

[amigo de christo]

mp, I acturally disagree with your interpretation of "leaven never representing something good in the spiritual sense."

Leaven is just yeast and Jesus used it both ways....

Mat 16:12 "Then they understood that he did not tell them to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sad'ducees.​

In the OT loaves of bread was a "wave offering" that was placed on the alter at certain times but it could not have yeast/leaven in it. But the interesting thing is that on the Day of Passover, Jesus, for the first time used leavened breasd at the Last Supper. Why the change? Because it was to represent his resurrection from death to life whereas the teaching of the Pharisees represented the false teachings and burdens of the Pharisees.

Our pastor does not know this and we have those "paper-like-tasteless white thingys" that Catholics use. I'm waiting for an opportunity to "enlighten" him!:cool:

Be leavened by the truth and the love of it and not with the leaven of sin . yep .

 

[Pearl]

mp, I acturally disagree with your interpretation of "leaven never representing something good in the spiritual sense."

Leaven is just yeast and Jesus used it both ways....

Mat 16:12 "Then they understood that he did not tell them to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sad'ducees.​

In the OT loaves of bread was a "wave offering" that was placed on the alter at certain times but it could not have yeast/leaven in it. But the interesting thing is that on the Day of Passover, Jesus, for the first time used leavened breasd at the Last Supper. Why the change? Because it was to represent his resurrection from death to life whereas the teaching of the Pharisees represented the false teachings and burdens of the Pharisees.

Our pastor does not know this and we have those "paper-like-tasteless white thingys" that Catholics use. I'm waiting for an opportunity to "enlighten" him!:cool:

Our church always has a large crusty loaf.

 

[GodsGrace]

Revealing trinitarianism is a mocking spirit.

Again with my question you have yet to answer:

I answer all questions...
What have a missed??

 

[Wrangler]

I answer all questions...
What have a missed??

See the 3 question from Post #1155

 

[Moriah's Song]

Our church always has a large crusty loaf.

Yum!:)

 

[Aunty Jane]

So, in summary, I appreciate you taking the time to give a defense for what you have been taught. All that I ask you to do is study a little more and find the truth. Instead of believing what the men of your denomination have taught you please do your own research.

I can only ask that you take your own advice....I have done my own research and arrived at my own conclusions....won't it be interesting to see what Jesus has to say about it all?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Again i say if we start letting leaven in for the sake of hugs and unity we are gonna destroy our church .
Now paul had to rebuke the corinthians for allow leaven to remain . What do you really think paul would have said
about two gay men that are married , claiming JESUS and sitting in a church .
HE would tell us what i am about to remind us all of , GET THEM OUT , My call would be the same as pauls
Deliver them over unto satan that perhaps the soul can be saved in the day of JESUS .
Cast out the leaven . We do it for the sake of the church and we do it in hopes they will repent .

Yes crucify the evildoer! Sound familiar?
The Jews were influenced to believe that they needed to do this with Jesus. (Matthew 27:25) They cursed themselves with his blood....do you think history cannot repeat?

 

[amigo de christo]

Yes crucify the evildoer! Sound familiar?
The Jews were influenced to believe that they needed to do this with Jesus. (Matthew 27:25) They cursed themselves with his blood....do you think history cannot repeat?

It will repeat , but beleive it or not , the hate and murder will be coming from those who hollered this love and unity stuff and tolerance .
Our churches gave the enemy the strong hold he needed to build his empire . Its true lambs like me that will soon
be considered haters and monsters of society . ALL cause i wont conform to its false love and unity .
Mark those words well . Paul and the true apostels corrected SIN , this age says JUDGE NOT
Paul and them pointed to Christ and sound doctrine , this all inclusive age points to another we are one spirit which is fast building
the beast system . YOUR RIGHT HISTORY DOES REPEAT , BETTER make sure WE ARE ON THE RIGHT SIDE . JESUS CHRIST .

 

[Aunty Jane]

It will repeat , but beleive it or not , the hate and murder will be coming from those who hollered this love and unity stuff and tolerance .
Our churches gave the enemy the strong hold he needed to build his empire . Its true lambs like me that will soon
be considered haters and monsters of society . ALL cause i wont conform to its false love and unity .

I agree, Christendom is in a shambles, so far from how Paul described how the brotherhood should be....all in agreement (1 Corinthians 1:10) and with strict adherence to scripture as Christ taught....Jesus founded his church on those principles, but today's churches are too worried about money to implement necessary discipline. Can't offend someone for fear they'll take their money somewhere else.

Mark those words well . Paul and the true apostels corrected SIN , this age says JUDGE NOT
Paul and them pointed to Christ and sound doctrine , this all inclusive age points to another we are one spirit which is fast building
the beast system . YOUR RIGHT HISTORY DOES REPEAT , BETTER make sure WE ARE ON THE RIGHT SIDE . JESUS CHRIST .

This is why my brotherhood lives by stressing that all must comply with God's moral standards, or be shown the door. We don't care who is offended...as long as it isn't God. God's laws are not negotiable....and no amount of money can buy your way into God's good graces.

 

[Aunty Jane]

But the interesting thing is that on the Day of Passover, Jesus, for the first time used leavened breasd at the Last Supper. Why the change? Because it was to represent his resurrection from death to life

Do we have scripture to back up this statement? I cant seem to find a single mention of this....

 

[Moriah's Song]

Do we have scripture to back up this statement? I cant seem to find a single mention of this....

Lev 2:11-12 RSV -

11 "No cereal offering which you bring to the LORD shall be made with leaven; for you shall burn no leaven nor any honey as an offering by fire to the LORD.
12 As an offering of first fruits you may bring them to the LORD, but they shall not be offered on the altar for a pleasing odor.​

Lev 23:17 - 17 You shall bring from your dwellings two loaves of bread to be waved, made of two tenths of an ephah; they shall be of fine flour, they shall be baked with leaven, as first fruits to the LORD.​

~ In verse 11, no leaven in bread is to be used with the animal sacrifices at the feast of Passover because it foreshadowed the crucifixion.
~ In verse 12, leaven could be used as "first fruits" because it foreshadows the resurrection.

New Testament use:

Mark 14:22 (RSV) As they were eating, he took bread, (G- artos) and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to them, and said, "Take; this is my body."​

Strong’s Definitions - G142 (artos) - leavened
ἄρτος ártos, ar'-tos; from; bread (as raised) or a loaf:—(shew-)bread, loaf.

Strong's Greek: 106. ἄζυμος (azumos) -- unleavened
ἄζυμος, (ζύμη), Hebrew מַצָּה, unfermented, free from leaven; properly: ἄρτοιExodus 29:2; Josephus, Antiquities 3, 6, 6; hence the neuter plural τάἄζυμα, מַצּות, unleavened loaves; ἡἑορτήτῶνἀζύμων,

 

[Grailhunter]

Lev 2:11-12 RSV -

11 "No cereal offering which you bring to the LORD shall be made with leaven; for you shall burn no leaven nor any honey as an offering by fire to the LORD.
12 As an offering of first fruits you may bring them to the LORD, but they shall not be offered on the altar for a pleasing odor.​

Lev 23:17 - 17 You shall bring from your dwellings two loaves of bread to be waved, made of two tenths of an ephah; they shall be of fine flour, they shall be baked with leaven, as first fruits to the LORD.​

~ In verse 11, no leaven in bread is to be used with the animal sacrifices at the feast of Passover because it foreshadowed the crucifixion.
~ In verse 12, leaven could be used as "first fruits" because it foreshadows the resurrection.

New Testament use:

Mark 14:22 (RSV) As they were eating, he took bread, (G- artos) and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to them, and said, "Take; this is my body."​

Strong’s Definitions - G142 (artos) - leavened
ἄρτος ártos, ar'-tos; from; bread (as raised) or a loaf:—(shew-)bread, loaf.

Strong's Greek: 106. ἄζυμος (azumos) -- unleavened
ἄζυμος, (ζύμη), Hebrew מַצָּה, unfermented, free from leaven; properly: ἄρτοιExodus 29:2; Josephus, Antiquities 3, 6, 6; hence the neuter plural τάἄζυμα, מַצּות, unleavened loaves; ἡἑορτήτῶνἀζύμων,

And the big bell rings ten times for Moriah's Song.....Congratulations!
Another false belief corrected....No more crackers in church?
The Catholic Church knew this and continued the tradition. I am not sure about the Protestants.
ἄρτον the Greek word for leavened bread....elsewhere used for the daily bread.
Another proof that the Passover meal for Christ was not the actual Passover meal. The actual Passover over meal on Friday used unleavened bread. And the actual Passover meal was something the Apostles still intended to eat so they did not enter when Christ was before Pilate. They lead Jesus therefore from Caiaphas into the Praetorium: and it was early; and they themselves entered not into the Praetorium, that they might not be defiled, but might eat the Passover. John 18:28

Mark 14:22 same word used in the Matthew and Luke

 

[Eternally Grateful]

And the big bell rings ten times for Moriah's Song.....Congratulations!
Another false belief corrected....No more crackers in church?
The Catholic Church knew this and continued the tradition. I am not sure about the Protestants.
ἄρτον the Greek word for leavened bread....elsewhere used for the daily bread.
Another proof that the Passover meal for Christ was not the actual Passover meal. The actual Passover over meal on Friday used unleavened bread. And the actual Passover meal was something the Apostles still intended to eat so they did not enter when Christ was before Pilate. They lead Jesus therefore from Caiaphas into the Praetorium: and it was early; and they themselves entered not into the Praetorium, that they might not be defiled, but might eat the Passover. John 18:28

Mark 14:22 same word used in the Matthew and Luke
View attachment 19484

Mark 14 is the passover meal. or the feast of unleavened bread.

Mark 14:
12 Now on the first day of Unleavened Bread, when they killed the Passover lamb, His disciples said to Him, “Where do You want us to go and prepare, that You may eat the Passover?”

13 And He sent out two of His disciples and said to them, “Go into the city, and a man will meet you carrying a pitcher of water; follow him. 14 Wherever he goes in, say to the master of the house, ‘The Teacher says, “Where is the guest room in which I may eat the Passover with My disciples?” ’ 15 Then he will show you a large upper room, furnished and prepared; there make ready for us.”

16 So His disciples went out, and came into the city, and found it just as He had said to them; and they prepared the Passover.

17 In the evening He came with the twelve. 18 Now as they sat and ate, Jesus said, “Assuredly, I say to you, one of you who eats with Me will betray Me.”

19 And they began to be sorrowful, and to say to Him one by one, “Is it I?” And another said, “Is it I?”

20 He answered and said to them, “It is one of the twelve, who dips with Me in the dish. 21 The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had never been born.”

Jesus Institutes the Lord’s Supper
22 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to them and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.”

so it would have been unleavened. And I agree. not crackers..

 

[Moriah's Song]

I am not sure about the Protestants.

I can't speak for all Protestant churchs but I have been a member of two. The first used unsalted broken into pieces and then changed to little squares of Wonder Bread. The second church where I am now used a bread that looked and like someone sat on it and was tasteless. Then with the virus hit, they did not want to spred it so they switched to a "cup" of grape juice that a pull top to it so that it enclosed that "paper tasting" wafer that the CC has.

I really don't think it makes a big difference but if you want to be NT correct, it's a loaf of leavened bread cut into little squares.

 

[Moriah's Song]

Mark 14:
12 Now on the first day of Unleavened Bread, when they killed the Passover lamb, His disciples said to Him, “Where do You want us to go and prepare, that You may eat the Passover?”

In verse 12 the disciples are talking about...what the feast day is called. They are not talking about the actual bread that the Lord used at the time of the supper meal.

In the verse that says ....."they prepared the Passover meal"; that does not specify what was IN the meal that was broken.

That bread that the Lord used at the meal was "leavened" bread as the Greek indicates in verse 22 of any lnterlinear Bible shows.

 

[Wrangler]

I really don't think it makes a big difference

Agreed. The ceremony used what was common and made it holy.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

In verse 12 the disciples are talking about...what the feast day is called. They are not talking about the actual bread that the Lord used at the time of the supper meal.

In the verse that says ....."they prepared the Passover meal"; that does not specify what was IN the meal that was broken.

That bread that the Lord used at the meal was "leavened" bread as the Greek indicates in verse 22 of any lnterlinear Bible shows.

I am just going off the command in the OT.


Feast of unleavened bread

ex 23: 14 “Three times you shall keep a feast to Me in the year: 15 You shall keep the Feast of Unleavened Bread (you shall eat unleavened bread seven days, as I commanded you, at the time appointed in the month of Abib, for in it you came out of Egypt; none shall appear before Me empty); 16 and the Feast of Harvest, the firstfruits of your labors which you have sown in the field; and the Feast of Ingathering at the end of the year, when you have gathered in the fruit of your labors from the field.

The Feast of Unleavened Bread
Ex 13: 3 And Moses said to the people: “Remember this day in which you went out of Egypt, out of the house of bondage; for by strength of hand the Lord brought you out of this place. No leavened bread shall be eaten. 4 On this day you are going out, in the month Abib. 5 And it shall be, when the Lord brings you into the land of the Canaanites and the Hittites and the Amorites and the Hivites and the Jebusites, which He swore to your fathers to give you, a land flowing with milk and honey, that you shall keep this service in this month. 6 Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread, and on the seventh day there shall be a feast to the Lord. 7 Unleavened bread shall be eaten seven days. And no leavened bread shall be seen among you, nor shall leaven be seen among you in all your quarters. 8 And you shall tell your son in that day, saying, ‘This is done because of what the Lord did for me when I came up from Egypt.’ 9 It shall be as a sign to you on your hand and as a memorial between your eyes, that the Lord’s law may be in your mouth; for with a strong hand the Lord has brought you out of Egypt. 10 You shall therefore keep this c]">[c]ordinance in its season from year to year.

 

[Grailhunter]

I can't speak for all Protestant churchs but I have been a member of two. The first used unsalted broken into pieces and then changed to little squares of Wonder Bread. The second church where I am now used a bread that looked and like someone sat on it and was tasteless. Then with the virus hit, they did not want to spred it so they switched to a "cup" of grape juice that a pull top to it so that it enclosed that "paper tasting" wafer that the CC has.

I really don't think it makes a big difference but if you want to be NT correct, it's a loaf of leavened bread cut into little squares.

In a pinch I do not think it matters LOL
But as a formal ritual....Wine is important...Christianity has strong connection with wine. Wine symbolized blood for several centuries before Christ. Christ used the vineyards in His parables and stories. Christianity built Christian symbolisms around wine and the grapevine...the vines symbolized the death and resurrection of Christ because the vines seem to die in the winter and come a live in the spring.

Church buildings did not occur north of Egypt until after the Edict of Milan....to easy for the Romans to find them. But when Christian Churches were built after the Edict, they usually had vineyards on their property.

So wine is important. Really no such thing as grape juice except at the harvest....no way to preserve it. Of course no Kool-Aid LOL....But usually wine was mixed with water at meals, so an argument can be made that they drank wine mixed with water.

And again for a formal ritual, whole loaves of daily bread should be used....the tearing of the bread has its connections also....taking His body and tearing a piece off to eat.

The the debate as to what is going on with the wine and bread, what it does to those that partake, has always been a topic. The Catholics and Martin Luther had two different explanations. Then in most cases modern Protestantism sees no miracle going on or even recognize it as important factor in regard to going to heaven.

 

[Enoch111]

Wine is important...Christianity has strong connection with wine.

As long as we are clear that there are wines and wines, and that the Bible speaks of pure fresh grape juice (or "new wine") as "wine" also. When we consider the miracle of the Water into Wine, since that was instantaneous, the possibility of fermentation was zero. Yet it was a very special and remarkable "wine". You will note in connection with the Lord's Supper, that we read of "the cup" rather than "wine". Since leaven represents sin and evil, that cup had unfermented wine, and the bread was unleavened also, both representing the sinless blood and body of Christ.