Can Jesus Christ Second Return Happen at ANY Moment? Pt. 2

[veteran]

Here is my case... My Pre-Trib Argument Which is also called the traditional prophetic timeline as we Pre-Tribbers believe the tribulation un-survivable for those who do not take the mark of the beast...

In which... (Prophecy Statement) I was thinking that the majority of the churches were in agreement with...

"The pre-millennial and pre-tribulation views are the most widely held in Bible prophecy. These views are the most literal approach to prophecy, and are sometimes called the futurist view, which claims there will be a literal future 7-year tribulation period followed by a 1000-year reign of Jesus Christ on earth. As well, the rapture of the Church will precede the tribulation period, and is a separate event from the Second Coming of Jesus Christ at the end of the tribulation period. Additionally, the Church and Israel have distinct and unique roles in the end-times, thus the events described in the book of Revelation are still to come. These positions are often attacked by liberal denominations and the cults, while a majority of conservative denominations accept these views of the end-times."

The pre-tribulation view is NOT the majority view, still. The pre-trib schools naturally WANT that to be so, but it cannot be documented. As per actual Church history from the 1st century A.D., the pre-tribulational doctrine did not appear as held doctrine in ANY Church prior to the 1800's.

That means, for 1800 years since Christ died on the cross, the Church held a post-tribulational view of Christ's coming and our gathering to Him.

The pre-tribulational view is actually the LEAST literal approach to Bible prophecy, simply because it purposefully omits Scripture which directly disagrees with its own doctrine (like Matt.24:29-31 about Christ's gathering His saints "after" the tribulation). A true literal approach to study of Scripture means following Scripture line upon line, not leaving any of It out. The pre-trib doctrines fail in that all too often by pulling single verses out of Scripture context and making them fit its doctrine instead.

The pre-tribulational view is not an allied doctrine with conservativism. Whoever originally wrote those statements is trying to use a political position to TRY and justify the pre-tribulational view among a certain class of people. It's actually a view held by many, many Liberals, and probably less Conservatives (in my personal experience; and I'm a Conservative).

Watch out brethren, for anytime you hear orators use such political comparisons like that, (not speaking of you rockytopva, I know you didn't write that). Such is that last statement in the paragraph, like anyone who does not accept the pre-trib doctrine is either a Liberal, cult follower, fanatic, etc. Speech like that comes from Christ's enemies, not from His Body.

 

[veteran]

So you are trying to tell the readers that AFTER God's word explains AND proves that the ONLY one being spoken about by Gabriel to Daniel is the Messiah, Jesus Christ, you still want us to believe that the LAST part of the LAST sentence is talking about the AoD?

Please tell us how you get this;

Out of ALL of this,

Dan 9:27
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

I see you want to debate the Dan.9:27 verse once again.

"and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate"


Your interpretation would mean that Christ Jesus did that "overspreading of abominations" at His first coming, which of course is ludicrous. The word "abominations" is Hebrew shiqquwts, and is about an 'idol'.

You don't think Daniel understood what kind of "abominations" was being spoken of within that prophecy, especially after he had been studying the Book of Jeremiah?...

Jer 7:30
30 For the children of Judah have done evil in My sight, saith the LORD: they have set their abominations in the house which is called by My name, to pollute it.
(KJV)

If that Dan.9:27 verse is only speaking about Christ as you say, then how did our Lord Jesus do that "overspreading of abominations" in Jerusalem?

That's where your doctrine that Dan.9:27 is a prophecy about Messiah only fails miserably.

If you say it was done by the Romans later in 69 A.D., that had nothing to do with Christ's first coming either, which would mean your doctrine fails miserably again. Is there any Scripture anywhere in God's Word, that shows God setting up an idol abomination in His temple at Jerusalem like the Jews did per the Book of Jeremiah? That's the actual hinge-point your doctrine depends upon about Dan.9:27.

 

[Eccl.12:13]

Jer 7:30
30 For the children of Judah have done evil in My sight, saith the LORD: they have set their abominations in the house which is called by My name, to pollute it.
(KJV)

If that Dan.9:27 verse is only speaking about Christ as you say, then how did our Lord Jesus do that "overspreading of abominations" in Jerusalem?

Who do you think the God of the OT was? It was Jesus Christ! It was NOT God the Father as most believe. That's how He was able to do it.

And what about the REST of the chapter? Is the LAST part of the LAST verse your ONLY defence that you have saying what Gabriel told Daniel about was the AoD?


Let's read just some of what Gabriel told Daniel.....

[24] Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,....


So this is just what Daniel was praying about, his people and Jerusalem. Now at what point did Daniel ask about the AOD and at what point did Gabriel say anything about the AoD? None yet...but let's continue....



[24]....to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.


So, Gabriel tells Daniel the following; there are 70 weeks to:

1. Finish the transgression.
2. To make reconciliation for iniquity (sins).
3. To bring in everlasting righteousness.
4. To seal up the vision and prophecy.
5. To anoint the most Holy.

Now at what point was the AoD mentioned? Can the AoD finish transgressions, make reconciliation for iniquity, bring in everlasting righteousness, seal up the vision AND anoint the most Holy? NO! So how many times did Gabriel mention the AoD? Not once...again. But what Gabriel did mention was the holy city Jerusalem, and the most Holy, who is Jesus Christ.





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[Foreigner]

Who do you think the God of the OT was? It was Jesus Christ! It was NOT God the Father as most believe.

-- Anyone else here hearing the theme to the Twilight Zone playing in the distance?

 

[tomwebster]

-- Anyone else here hearing the theme to the Twilight Zone playing in the distance?

You might want to consider studying Scripture a little deeper.

 

[Foreigner]

Funny, I was about to tell you the same thing...

 

[Tkinnie]

Christ can come at any time, but it will be the proper time. We dont know when that is, thats why he says be prepared at all times, be ready because he will come like a thief in the night. Only god knows that day. Not the son, only the father knows. So just be prepared.

 

[tomwebster]

Christ can come at any time, but it will be the proper time. We dont know when that is, thats why he says be prepared at all times, be ready because he will come like a thief in the night. Only god knows that day. Not the son, only the father knows. So just be prepared.

Sorry tl, but what you are saying is just not true. Christ will return at the time He has set and not before. There are things that must happen yet. Those things are written in God's Word.

 

[Joshua David]

Veteran,

Watch out brethren, for anytime you hear orators use such political comparisons like that, (not speaking of you rockytopva, I know you didn't write that). Such is that last statement in the paragraph, like anyone who does not accept the pre-trib doctrine is either a Liberal, cult follower, fanatic, etc. Speech like that comes from Christ's enemies, not from His Body.

Let me say from the beginning that I agree with you on this statement. But I would also say that you are being hypocritical, because what is the difference in what you just warned us about, and claiming that everyone who teaches the pretrib rapture is a false teacher, like you made on another thread. So which is it? 1) Should we take statements like this, on both sides of the argument with a grain of salt? 2) Should we, like you warn, view statements like these, on both sides of the argument, as coming from Christ's enemies and not from his Body, or3) Is it that you get a special pass? That you can make statements like these and that's ok, but if the other side makes them, THEN it must be coming from Christ's enemies.


So which is it? Door number 1, 2, or 3?


Joshua David

 

[Foreigner]

I am looking forward to his response....

 

[Joshua David]

I am looking forward to his response....

Me too

 

[veteran]

Who do you think the God of the OT was? It was Jesus Christ! It was NOT God the Father as most believe. That's how He was able to do it.

I don't think you really understand what you're saying. For Daniel 9:27 to be about Christ Jesus, it would mean He is Who places the 'abominations' in Jerusalem per that verse.

Both The Father and The Son are The God of the OT. There is NO Scripture support for The Father OR The Son setting up an 'abomination' idol in a temple in Jerusalem.

Yet there is Scripture support for false worshipers of Israel doing such a thing; I even gave support for that with the Jeremiah 7:30 example. See Ezekiel 8 for some more. That's not to mention Antiochus IV in 170 B.C.

 

[veteran]

Veteran, Let me say from the beginning that I agree with you on this statement. But I would also say that you are being hypocritical, because what is the difference in what you just warned us about, and claiming that everyone who teaches the pretrib rapture is a false teacher, like you made on another thread. So which is it? 1) Should we take statements like this, on both sides of the argument with a grain of salt? 2) Should we, like you warn, view statements like these, on both sides of the argument, as coming from Christ's enemies and not from his Body, or3) Is it that you get a special pass? That you can make statements like these and that's ok, but if the other side makes them, THEN it must be coming from Christ's enemies. So which is it? Door number 1, 2, or 3? Joshua David

False prophet is a very correct reference for those who misapply even direct statements in Scripture so far away from its simple grammatical structure, that it's OBVIOUS they are telling a lie.

For example: Mark 13:24 where Christ made direct statements to show the gathering of His elect is "after" the tribulation, but a false prophet will lie and say He meant a pre-trib rapture of His elect, disregarding even the simple grammar of the text.

Another example:

Dan 9:26-27
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for Himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
(KJV)

Dan.9:26 breakdown:
"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for Himself" - that's about Christ Jesus

"and the people of the prince that shall come" - that's NOT about Christ Jesus

Dan.9:27 --
"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:" - that's about that same "prince that shall come". The "he" given requires going back to pick up the object in grammar, the last entity being spoken about, which is that "prince that shall come" (not Christ).

 

[veteran]

Christ can come at any time, but it will be the proper time. We dont know when that is, thats why he says be prepared at all times, be ready because he will come like a thief in the night. Only god knows that day. Not the son, only the father knows. So just be prepared.

To go one further on what Tom replied, Apostle Paul's Message in 1 Thess.5 was that "that day" is not to take Christ's servants by surprise. It is not supposed to take us by surprise "as a thief". That means we ARE supposed to know "the times and the seasons" of our Lord's coming, which is the direct opposite of the 'any moment' idea.

In reality, it's the deceived that Christ's coming will be like 'any moment' to, which is an idea some derive from the "as a thief in the night" phrase.

The full "as a thief" metaphor is about someone breaking into your home at night like a thief. If you don't remain sober and watching, then you won't be aware when the thief tries to break in, and your house will be broken up. That's why Paul taught in 1 Thess.5 those who are drunken and sleep in the night will least expect it when it happens. That's actually a pointer to those who don't watch "the times and the seasons" he spoke of.

 

[Eccl.12:13]

Dan.9:27 --
"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:" - that's about that same "prince that shall come". The "he" given requires going back to pick up the object in grammar, the last entity being spoken about, which is that "prince that shall come" (not Christ).

And what was the 'covenant' that was confirmed by your so-called prince?

 

[veteran]

And what was the 'covenant' that was confirmed by your so-called prince?

That "prince" certainly is NOT my prince. But he may be your prince if you don't come to understand how that Dan.9:27 Scripture is not about Christ Jesus.


Dan 11:21-12:13
21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.
23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.
24 He shall enter peaceably even upon the fattest places of the province; and he shall do that which his fathers have not done, nor his fathers' fathers; he shall scatter among them the prey, and spoil, and riches: yea, and he shall forecast his devices against the strong holds, even for a time.
25 And he shall stir up his power and his courage against the king of the south with a great army; and the king of the south shall be stirred up to battle with a very great and mighty army; but he shall not stand: for they shall forecast devices against him.
26 Yea, they that feed of the portion of his meat shall destroy him, and his army shall overflow: and many shall fall down slain.
27 And both these kings' hearts shall be to do mischief, and they shall speak lies at one table; but it shall not prosper: for yet the end shall be at the time appointed.
28 Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land.
29 At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter.
30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.
36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.
38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.
39 Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.
40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.
41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.
42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.
43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.
44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.
45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

 

[Eccl.12:13]

Dan 11:21-12:13
23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.

My question was when will he CONFIRM, not MAKE a covenant!

When you confirm something, that means there was already something made before.

Now....if you could answer THAT question with the word of God!


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[veteran]

My question was when will he CONFIRM, not MAKE a covenant!

When you confirm something, that means there was already something made before.

Now....if you could answer THAT question with the word of God!

The Dan.9:27 phrase "And he shall confirm" is one word in the manuscripts, gabar, which can mean to prevail, or to be strong, or strengthen.

It's about the following event concerning the "vile person" of Dan.11...

Dan 11:23
23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.
(KJV)

Obviously, that "league" is one of the ways he will become strong with a small people.

But especially, the Dan.9:27 phrase "he shall cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate" can't be separated from that same "vile person" of Dan.11 that does that...

Dan 11:31
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
(KJV)

 

[Eccl.12:13]

The Dan.9:27 phrase "And he shall confirm" is one word in the manuscripts, gabar, which can mean to prevail, or to be strong, or strengthen.

It's about the following event concerning the "vile person" of Dan.11...

Dan 11:23
23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.
(KJV)

Obviously, that "league" is one of the ways he will become strong with a small people.

But especially, the Dan.9:27 phrase "he shall cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate" can't be separated from that same "vile person" of Dan.11 that does that...

Dan 11:31
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
(KJV)

Jesus is the one that caused the sacrifices and oblations to cease. Again..who was it that Gabriel came to give Daniel knowledge about? The people, the Land and the most holy.

"The land also shall be left of them, and shall enjoy her sabbaths, while she lieth desolate without them: and they shall accept of the punishment of their iniquity: because, even because they despised my judgments, and because their soul abhorred my statutes."

Because of the, "...overspreading of abominations...", by the nation of Israel. That's why God made the land desolate...because of the sins of the nation of Israel.


Because of the overspreading of abominations, which is sin, Jesus caused the land, Jerusalem, to become desolate.

The AoD will take away the daily sacrifice and they will place the abomination, the AoD, who makes it desolate.


Again....WHO was it that Gabriel came to give Daniel wisdom and understanding about? Was it about the AoD or was it about the people, the land (Jerusalem), and the most Holy?

Which was it?


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[veteran]

The Dan.9:27 overspreading of abominations clause is about FALSE IDOL WORSHIP. The word "abominations" in the Hebrew means an idol in false worship. Christ had no hand in setting up any abomination idol inside the temple at Jerusalem.

False prophets a long, long time ago started the idea that it meant a desolation of literal destruction, like when the Roman army destroyed Jerusalem and the temple in 69 A.D. Per the Jewish historian Josephus (100 A.D.), he said the temple caught fire and was destroyed before the Romans could gain entry into it. They did not setup false idol worship inside the temple, because it was destroyed beforehand.

Even in Matt.24 and Mark 13 where Christ is warning about the "abomination of desolation", He is not speaking of a literal destruction with what He described is set place inside the temple, but a spiritual desecrating of the temple by false idol worship, a polluting of the temple. That is the actual type of 'desolation' He was speaking of from the Book of Daniel.

Dan 11:31
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
(KJV)


He also warned us about that very idol that is to be setup in the last days before His return, within the Rev.13 chapter about the "another beast" that will cause all those who refuse to worship the "image of the beast" to be killed. It's the same thing that the king of Babylon did in Daniel's days also, with the false golden idol image that everyone was required to bow in worship to at the sound of the musical instrument call to worship.

By the example of Antiochus Epiphanes in 170 B.C., conquering Jerusalem with an army, and going inside the temple at Jerusalem to sacrifice swine upon the altar, and setting up an abomination idol of Zeus for the people to worship, God was allowing us to see the very blueprint of what the final Antichrist is going to do in the end of days, that same one of Rev.13 that sets up the "image of the beast".

If you don't put all this together as whole, you very well may be one of those in the end that falls to worship that "abomination of desolation" idol when it is placed in the temple in Jerusalem after sacrifices are stopped again.