Secure Eternal Salvation

[farouk]

I want to say from experience how confusing it was for me before I learned the biblical version of grace.

One prominent reformed Pastor said "We only get better when we realize that if we never get any better, God still loves us."

He explained that grace means our sin is no longer the problem.

So I figured that when I was sinning, it wasn't from a lack of effort but because I was trying too hard to be good and therefore not resting in the grace of God.

Surely if I rested enough in God's grace, I wouldn't want to sin anymore, right?

Wrong.

I still wanted to sin. And sin mopped the floor up with me. See, I thought that because we were saved by grace through faith alone that my fruit and sanctification was an automatic add-on to me resting in grace and God's love. That is what I was taught and promised.

This ultimately distracted me from God's call to me to obey Him and to actively resist the devil so he would flee from me.

When I read the Scriptures, I learned that the true evidence of saving faith is obedience. I also learned that many of the popular pastors, teachers, and theologians had led me astray and that I was better off reading the Scriptures and learning that way, rather than the confusing hyper-grace principles that sounded really really good on paper, but did not hold up.

@Wynona If it's all of grace, then I don't see that 'hyper-grace' would be a bad thing in that sense. Resting in God's grace day by day as we seek to please Him is of course a good thing.

 

[Wynona]

@Wynona If it's all of grace, then I don't see that 'hyper-grace' would be a bad thing in that sense. Resting in God's grace day by day as we seek to please Him is of course a good thing.

Okay but what does "resting in God's grace" actually mean? Does the Bible really command us to do this? And is obedience not the way to please him?

I thought Scripture says to strive to enter that rest and that through disobedience the Israelites could not enter and neither can Christians?

I have to be on guard these days. Not so much against you but for my own sake so I don't get decieved again. There is so much deception out there. The Bible is what I trust.

I will never accept wholesale what anyone has to say without checking the Bible first again.

 

[robert derrick]

Willful unrepentance is what is ultimately not covered by the blood for the believing Christian.
Meanwhile, the Sacrifice of High Priest Jesus covers the failures and shortcomings of the believer growing up into the stature of Christ.
The believer may not be aware of some of his failures and shortcomings. But just like under the old covenant, the High Priest's Sacrifice covers the sins of the people of God that they are not aware of and are not being called to account for because of ignorance or immaturity.

The believer may not be aware of some of his failures and shortcomings. But just like under the old covenant, the High Priest's Sacrifice covers the sins of the people of God that they are not aware of and are not being called to account for because of ignorance or immaturity.

True. It was the 'errors' of the people.

However, in Christ His people go deeper in knowledge, in the deep things of God, because being born of the Spirit, He speaks specifically to us and our conscience to know what we have done, even if we did not know at the time:

Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee.

God by His Spirit we are born of, will assuredly bring all things to our remembrance, what we have thought, said, and done:

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

The peace of Christ therefore is giving account for all things to Him in this life, not needing judgment in the next.

Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

The world brings accusation to punish, but God brings knowledge of sin to be forgiven with confession, to be made whole and clean, once again, with a pure conscience: We are granted opportunity by grace to acknowledge our sin with God Personally, which could only be done in the OT at the altar with animal sacrifice for sin.

The fear of the Lord is not being afraid of God, but is the fear of disobedience due to unwillingness by the feeling of our infirmity in the flesh: we don't feel like it, nor want to do what we know to do, whether to overcome temptation or to do good.

Jesus knew that fear in the garden and learned obedience by it to the cross:

Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered.

At that time of knowledge, we are then made responsible to act: to agree with God from the heart, which is confession for forgiveness, and to remedy the situation if possible:

Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

A covenant with death is making peace with sin, not with God, which is the result of searing the conscience by the false doctrine of guaranteed sins in the future, along with guaranteed forgiveness for them in the past.

Instead of being forgiven by confession of sins that are past, we foolishly believe in forgiveness in the past for sins not yet committed, for which there is no need to confess, 'already being forgiven'.

 

[farouk]

Okay but what does "resting in God's grace" actually mean? Does the Bible really command us to do this? And is obedience not the way to please him?

I thought Scripture says to strive to enter that rest and that through disobedience the Israelites could not enter and neither can Christians?

I have to be on guard these days. Not so much against you but for my own sake so I don't get decieved again. There is so much deception out there. The Bible is what I trust.

I will never accept wholesale what anyone has to say without checking the Bible first again.

@Wynona Hebrews 11 and Romans 1 and Romans 16 do indeed speak of the obedience which comes with faith.

 

[farouk]

Okay but what does "resting in God's grace" actually mean?

@Wynona Resting in the finished work of Christ - John 19.30; Hebrews chapters 9 and 10 - cannot be with any admixture of supposed human merit; it's by grace or not at all; I'm sure you agree; this is how I would respond to your question, anyway...

 

[robert derrick]

Willful unrepentance is what is ultimately not covered by the blood for the believing Christian.
Meanwhile, the Sacrifice of High Priest Jesus covers the failures and shortcomings of the believer growing up into the stature of Christ.
The believer may not be aware of some of his failures and shortcomings. But just like under the old covenant, the High Priest's Sacrifice covers the sins of the people of God that they are not aware of and are not being called to account for because of ignorance or immaturity.

Willful unrepentance.

Great point. Never thought of it that way before.

That would then be known sin willfully committed without godly sorrow, which adds much clarification to the Scripture:

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.

It is not just sin wilfully committed, by which all such sin is done, in overriding our conscience and doing despite to the Spirit of grace, but is a willful rejection of any repentance from it, which therefore sears our conscience to any godly sorrow.

This is when there remains no more sacrifice for our unrepented sins, because there is no confession from the heart, whereby the Advocate may forgive us, being no more our Advocate.

We know it is sin, but we don't confess it as exceeding sinful, but only as exceeding pleasurable for a season.

Salvation by faith alone leads directly to this condition, because why must all sin be repented of, since they are already forgiven in the past?

After all, it's not like our soul depends upon it.

When salvation of the soul does not depend upon obedience to the faith, neither then does the soul.

But the true eternal salvation of Jesus certainly does depend upon obedience to Him, because it is only for them that obey Him.

And so we must learn that obedience of Jesus, even as He did, because He did so only because our salvation and souls depended upon it.

Our salvation depended upon Jesus learning obedience unto the cross, and so His eternal salvation for us depends upon our obedience unto death.

Jesus Christ did not obey, that we might not have to obey, nor did He obey for us all.

But rather, He suffered the cross, that He might suffer death for us all, that we might not have to.

Salvation by faith alone teaches Jesus did our obeying. He obeyed for us!

 

[robert derrick]

Scripture teaches us to come boldly to the throne of grace to receive help in time of need to overcome temptation, but OSAS teaches coming casually to grace for a forgiveness already obtained before the sin.

One is thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

The other is 'Gee thanks, I'll be back later for another.'

 

[robert derrick]

Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

He became the Author of eternal salvation by learning obedience unto the cross, and so He is the Author of eternal salvation for all them that are in the world as He is: learning obedience unto death.

We love him, because he first loved us.

He first loved us by obedience for our soul's sake, and so we must love Him by obeying Him for our soul's sake.

There is no eternal salvation without obedience to Him, for our own soul is at stake.

He didn't first love us by speaking gracious words to us. Anyone can do that.

Love that is without obedience is love in word only, not in deed and in truth.

OSAS' salvation by faith alone is loving God in word only, in so many gracious words.

Eternal salvation is by grace through the faith that obeys Him.

Faith alone is dead, and salvation by faith alone lasts only to the grave.

Unless it's dropped altogether with open sin without shame.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

That would then be known sin willfully committed without godly sorrow, which adds much clarification to the Scripture:

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.

It is not just sin wilfully committed, by which all such sin is done, in overriding our conscience and doing despite to the Spirit of grace, but is a willful rejection of any repentance from it, which therefore sears our conscience to any godly sorrow.

This is when there remains no more sacrifice for our unrepented sins, because there is no confession from the heart, whereby the Advocate may forgive us, being no more our Advocate.

That's the way I sees it.

 

[robert derrick]

God will not look upon our sin- because He sees no sin in us! Why? Because they were all paid for at the cross. If the cross did not pay for our future sins, there remains no more acceptable sacrifice for those sins and we all are hopeless.

Now that is convenient:

"Hey 'Christian', didn't you just get drunk??"
"No"
"What do you mean, no?? I saw you fallen down drunk!!"
"Well, yes, but no. Yes, ok, I was technically drunk, but I wasn't drunk inwardly, because Jesus didn't see it."
'Uh?!"
"Well, you see, in OSAS kingdom, we can see, and we will, just like you, but though we sin outwardly, our sin is not seen inwardly, because we believe all our outward sins were forgiven inwardly at the cross. You however, except you also believe that, unlike myself, you will be judged for your sins outwardly and inwardly."
"Even the ones I haven't done yet??"
"Of course! That's the beauty of it. It wouldn't be so great a salvation, if it didn't, now would it?"
"Sounds great to me. How can I too become OSAS forgiven forever in the future??"
"Just believe what I just told you, and thank Jesus for it, and you too shall be forgiven all your sins in future."
"Wow. That's it? Just believe it?"
"Yes!"
"I'll drink to that! Here's to OSAS forgiveness! Hip hip hooray!!"

Salvation by faith alone is the temporal salvation of carnal minds that do not love obedience to the faith.

And so the carnal mind that believes it becomes reprobate to truth, and reality is replaced with mystical delusion.

God will not look upon our outward sin, because He sees no sin in us!

You see, that is how God does not judge according to the appearance, but only according to the heart: OSAS is liberalism on steroids in the name of Jesus.

 

[robert derrick]

God will not look upon our sin- because He sees no sin in us! Why? Because they were all paid for at the cross. If the cross did not pay for our future sins, there remains no more acceptable sacrifice for those sins and we all are hopeless.

Yes that is hopeless, because it is the hopeless wresting of Scripture by the carnal mind, that refuses eternal salvation for them that obey the faith of Jesus.

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.

There remains no more sacrifice for sins of them that wilfully refuse not repent. Duh.

But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Not for OSAS. They fear nothing, least of all the Lord. They have no fear of sinning ignorantly nor wilfully in His sight, even as Nimrod of old:

The transgression of the wicked saith within my heart, that there is no fear of God before his eyes.

For he flattereth himself in his own eyes, until his iniquity be found to be hateful.

OSAS has no fear of God before their eyes, because they no sin before His eyes.

OSAS is the old Jewish version in Christian form: they judge others as guilty before God by sin and transgression, while excuse themselves as no guilty by God with the same sin and transgression:

Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?

For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

OSAS believers in salvation by faith alone are the source of all scorn by sinners, that see their sin, and yet are told their sin is not seen by God.

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie. That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Believing the truth is obeying the truth.

They really want to believe that their outward deeds will not be judged by God, because He is a respecter of their inward persons by their faith:

Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath.

For there is no respect of persons with God.

To them that do not obey the truth, is them that do not believe the truth: Jesus.

By not obeying Him outwardly, they prove they do not believe Him inwardly.

OSAS has no need to obey the truth, because to them, they will receive like glory and honour and immortality of life that do obey the truth.

The hypocrisy of OSAS is strong delusion indeed. Any child can see it.

 

[robert derrick]

God will not look upon our sin- because He sees no sin in us! Why? Because they were all paid for at the cross. If the cross did not pay for our future sins, there remains no more acceptable sacrifice for those sins and we all are hopeless.

And so, here we have it. The true heart of OSAS: God cannot see their sins inwardly, though they do sin outwardly.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

That is exactly what God seeing no sin in us means: we have no sin for Him to see.

OSAS is not the Mother of harlots, but is certainly right up there with one of those harlots and heads of the beast.

 

[robert derrick]

God will not look upon our sin- because He sees no sin in us! Why? Because they were all paid for at the cross. If the cross did not pay for our future sins, there remains no more acceptable sacrifice for those sins and we all are hopeless.

OSAS kings have already arrived. They arrived at the start of the race. It's just a matter of time before they receive their crown, which they have already obtained by faith alone.

They have no sin that God can see nor speak of.

Mystery Babylon the Great is the Mother of OSAS: Princess Grace, Who sees no evil, hears no evil, neither speaks of any evil to her children, because there is no sin for Her to see.

OSAS Motto: Nothing to see here. What is done in the world, stays in the world.

 

[robert derrick]

Okay but what does "resting in God's grace" actually mean? Does the Bible really command us to do this? And is obedience not the way to please him?

I thought Scripture says to strive to enter that rest and that through disobedience the Israelites could not enter and neither can Christians?

I have to be on guard these days. Not so much against you but for my own sake so I don't get decieved again. There is so much deception out there. The Bible is what I trust.

I will never accept wholesale what anyone has to say without checking the Bible first again.

There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

Paul is speaking of a rest on earth and a rest in heaven.

For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

The rest for them that obey now, are resting from their own works on earth.

They are in deed no more doing their own will and way of things, but the old man is thoroughly crucified on their cross.

That is the rest we are to work out for ourselves. I say they, because I know it does not apply to me...yet.

I'm still working on it by grace. Besetting sins etc... must be worked out to enter into that rest while yet in the days of our flesh.

Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Paul spoke also of the rest to come in the resurrection, where we rest from the race of mortality.

And the warning is not to quit the race before the end to receive the crown of eternal salvation promised for all them that obey Him to the end.

(Which OSAS kings don't need to worry about, since they believe they arrived at the start, with not more sin for God to see. At least inwardly, anyway.)

I will never accept wholesale what anyone has to say without checking the Bible first again.

Good girl. I went through the same thing, as I suspect most believers have, and it is the surest way for them that obey to finish the race winning Christ.

Otherwise, we can be detoured off the way of Jesus by obeying false doctrine.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Feel free to clear up this glaring contradiction.

We are talking a time frame. One can give mental assent to the faith which is a "believing" (intellectually) but never really saved! A saved person who has trusted the one time only needed in the death and resurrection of Jesus and go through dark times, but as it is written, the righteous man, tho0ugh He stumble, Hw will not fall for God will hold him up!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I want to say from experience how confusing it was for me before I learned the biblical version of grace.

One prominent reformed Pastor said "We only get better when we realize that if we never get any better, God still loves us."

He explained that grace means our sin is no longer the problem.

So I figured that when I was sinning, it wasn't from a lack of effort but because I was trying too hard to be good and therefore not resting in the grace of God.

Surely if I rested enough in God's grace, I wouldn't want to sin anymore, right?

Wrong.

I still wanted to sin. And sin mopped the floor up with me. See, I thought that because we were saved by grace through faith alone that my fruit and sanctification was an automatic add-on to me resting in grace and God's love. That is what I was taught and promised.

This ultimately distracted me from God's call to me to obey Him and to actively resist the devil so he would flee from me.

When I read the Scriptures, I learned that the true evidence of saving faith is obedience. I also learned that many of the popular pastors, teachers, and theologians had led me astray and that I was better off reading the Scriptures and learning that way, rather than the confusing hyper-grace principles that sounded really really good on paper, but did not hold up.

what are you trying to say with this post. that you no longer sin?

 

[Wynona]

what are you trying to say with this post. that you no longer sin?

That Im no longer confused.

Speaking of sin, God has given me victory over so much temptation. And I know it's possible to have a clear conscience with God and not sin constantly.

When God brings a sin to my attention, I repent and try to stop it. Many times, I have failed. But I overcome more and more as I lean into the disciplines of God.

It's definitely been a process but I definitely don't feel like sin is mopping up the floor with me. I feel like an overcomer. And my conscience isn't filled with guilt and shame like it was before. There is peace.

I know what it's like to be overwhelmed by sin. Falling into sin over and over again and feeling powerless to stop. But in my desire to please the Lord, He had given me grace to overcome increasingly.

And so when people say that it's impossible to go even a few minutes without sinning---well that is sad because sin is bondage and Jesus doesn't want us to live that way.

Not because He is out to get us but because he loves us and knows that sin creates shame, separation, and distance from Himself and the Father.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

That Im no longer confused.

Speaking of sin, God has given me victory over so much temptation. And I know it's possible to have a clear conscience with God and not sin constantly.

When God brings a sin to my attention, I repent and try to stop it. Many times, I have failed. But I overcome more and more as I lean into the disciplines of God.

It's definitely been a process but I definitely don't feel like sin is mopping up the floor with me. I feel like an overcomer. And my conscience isn't filled with guilt and shame like it was before. There is peace.

I know what it's like to be overwhelmed by sin. Falling into sin over and over again and feeling powerless to stop. But in my desire to please the Lord, He had given me grace to overcome increasingly.

And so when people say that it's impossible to go even a few minutes without sinning---well that is sad because sin is bondage and Jesus doesn't want us to live that way.

Not because He is out to get us but because he loves us and knows that sin creates shame, separation, and distance from Himself and the Father.

Thank you Wynona.

 

[farouk]

Following on from the theme of the obedience of faith, here is a rendition of Thomas Tallis's 'If ye love Me' (based on: "If ye love me, keep My commandments"):

 

[robert derrick]

That Im no longer confused.

Speaking of sin, God has given me victory over so much temptation. And I know it's possible to have a clear conscience with God and not sin constantly.

When God brings a sin to my attention, I repent and try to stop it. Many times, I have failed. But I overcome more and more as I lean into the disciplines of God.

It's definitely been a process but I definitely don't feel like sin is mopping up the floor with me. I feel like an overcomer. And my conscience isn't filled with guilt and shame like it was before. There is peace.

I know what it's like to be overwhelmed by sin. Falling into sin over and over again and feeling powerless to stop. But in my desire to please the Lord, He had given me grace to overcome increasingly.

And so when people say that it's impossible to go even a few minutes without sinning---well that is sad because sin is bondage and Jesus doesn't want us to live that way.

Not because He is out to get us but because he loves us and knows that sin creates shame, separation, and distance from Himself and the Father.

what are you trying to say with this post. that you no longer sin?

Don't let the OSAS faith alone people trip you up. Only one of them would try to accuse you of thinking you're perfect by what you said.

Many times, I have failed.

Failure proves we are not perfect. Quitting proves we never will be.