Secure Eternal Salvation

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robert derrick

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God will not look upon our sin- because He sees no sin in us! Why? Because they were all paid for at the cross. If the cross did not pay for our future sins, there remains no more acceptable sacrifice for those sins and we all are hopeless.

The thread began with the irrefutable Scripture of necessity of obedience to the faith for eternal salvation, which was never addressed, especially not refuted.

Because it cannot be.

And now by all the self-righteous indignation pouring forth from the cut hearts of OSAS elite, the irrefutable nail on the coffin of OSAS is from their own lips.

To say He sees no sin in us is to say we have no sin for Him to see.

To say we have no sins unwashed is to say we have no sin.

Salvation by faith alone is a lie based upon a pride in forgiveness that is not true: a pride and hubris based upon a false belief about the blood of the Lamb.

Whenever we believe all our sins are already forgiven, past, present, and future, and so have no sins for God to see, then we believe we have no sin, though we know we do sin and will certainly continue to sin without cost to our soul.

The soul which sinneth it shall die no longer applies to us, because we are too good for that, and we play lip service to the blood of the Lamb to believe it.

Jesus Christ did not learn obedience unto death on the cross, that we would be free from obedience, and the cost of disobedience.

The best thing OSAS can do is repent, especially to any they proselytize others into the lie of having no sin:

Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.


Salvation by faith alone seduces the believers of Jesus into all manner of sin, because all sin is already forgiven.

Repenting of our deeds is the only repentance before God. There is no repentance of the mind only, even as there is no forgiveness for faith alone.

The blood of Jesus can only pay for sins confessed and repented of, whether past, present, or future: the faith of Jesus is that His blood does wash all such sins clean, whensoever we confess them unto repentance, even to seventy times seven times.

The blood of Jesus does not cover unrepented sin, but only washes clean sin repented of.

And grace does not cover anything, but is only given to help to overcome sin, and sin overcome is only sin resisted unto victory in Jesus Christ.

Our only unrepented sins that are covered, are covered as the transgressions as Adam, by hiding our iniquities in our bosom. (Job 31)

OSAS says their hidden iniquities excused by grace cannot be seen by God.

The only acceptable sacrifice for them that obey Him is repentance from dead works: Jesus sacrificed Himself for our sins, that we may have power to sacrifice ourselves to our sins:

Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.


We crucify our old man of sin upon our cross, which we take up for His sake, because He crucified Himself on the cross for our sake.

What is hopeless is the vain and proud belief that Jesus shed His blood, so that we would not have to repent of all our sinful deeds.

That is the lie of the old man trodding in His blood and claiming proudly unconditional eternal salvation by faith alone, with grace.
 

Robert Gwin

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It's interesting that in this passage the diligence of "work and the love" is equated with "faith and patience" :

"God is not unjust. He will not forget your work and the love you have shown for His name as you have ministered to the saints and continue to do so.11We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure. 12Then you will not be sluggish, but will imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised." Hebrews 6:10-12

Meanwhile, most in the church create a clear delineation between works and faith when it comes to the eternal inheritance. It seems most Christians are quite content with just having faith, alone, no works attached. Not knowing that working is how you have faith and patience. They have been taught that is a works gospel.

Do you know what ministered means in that passage Ferris?
 

robert derrick

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Do you know what this means?

"...we will be ready to punish every act of disobedience, once your obedience is complete." 2 Corinthians 10:6
It is in the context of bold ministry, preaching against sin: it should be done for the perfecting the saints, not to destroy them in the name of 'destroying the flesh'.

"And being ready to righteously attack all disobedience, so that your obedience may be complete."

I.e. we are ready to preach against all sin, that you may repent by obedience to the faith.

All unconfessed sin is unforgiven, which is why God is sure to show us all our sins, through the Spirit, whether by ministry and/or by revelation.

God's love and patient longsuffering for us covers a multitude of sins, until they are made known, and then He commands repentance.

The blood of Jesus does not 'cover' sins, but is only for washing them away, which are only those confessed unto repentance and cleansed from us.

I read no Scripture for sins 'covered' by the blood of the Lamb.

God sees everything we do and think, and His will is to forgive and purge all sins, whether of the flesh or the spirit, and His ministry of the Spirit to us is for that purpose: that we may confess with knowledge of sin and be forgiven. And sometimes, that is all we can do, which is sufficient for our Advocate to forgive us.

Obedient believers with the hope of eternal salvation want their sins exposed, that they may be cleansed:

The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.

More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.

Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.

Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults.


They love true correction of God.
 

Ferris Bueller

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the bible says we are dead and our lives are hidden with Christ. And when Jesus appears, we shall appear with him- with no caveat added as you insist we do.
You have to be a believer when Christ returns to be saved from his wrath when he returns.

I find it interesting that you think a person who used to believe but doesn't anymore is a person who is dead in Christ and hidden with Christ and will appear with him when he returns. Unbelievers, whether they used to believe or not, are not saved. I can't believe we even have to have this discussion. This was understood very well and did not even need to be discussed just 20 or 25 years ago.
 
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BreadOfLife

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I don't know why you're arguing with me.
I guess because I'm not Catholic you automatically think I'm Calvinist, lol.


You're going to have to understand that since both Catholic and Protestant theologies are corrupt to some extent there are those of us who read the Bible for ourselves and through the anointing and gifts that all believers have we discern the truth apart from the corrupt teachings and influences of the man-made institutions that exist today. So don't automatically put me in Calvin's camp, lol. It's me and God and other believers like me who read the Bible for ourselves discerning it's message through the Holy Spirit. We are few and we do not belong to the corrupt, worldly institutions people call the 'church' in existence at this time in church history. So don't assume anything. We talk about and operate in specific and individual doctrines, not official fabricated systems of theology.
First of all - I'm not arguing with you because I think you're a Calvinist - but because neither the context of Scripture NOR the Church has ever taught the fallacy of OSAS. If you adhere to this false doctrine - Calvinist or not - you are in error.

Secondly, I disagree with you that BOTH Catholic and Protestant theologies are corrupt to some extent - and this is where the problem lies.

There are FAR too many fanciful and invented doctrines that are created around those who don't trust the words of Christ in relation to the Teaching Authority that he gave His Church. Whereas, I may not trust every individual within the Church who teaches because some of them do NOT adhere to to the teachings of the Church e - I DO trust what the Church teaches as a whole.
I am bound by this from the word of God:

Matt 16:1819
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. WHATEVER YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven; and WHATEVER YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

John 16:12-15
“I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.
But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to ALL truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to YOU the things that are coming.
He will glorify me, because he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.
Everything that the Father has is MINE; for this reason I told you that he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.

2 Thess. 2:15
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, whether by an ORAL STATEMENT or by a LETTER from us."

Luke 10:16
Whoever listens to YOU listens to ME. Whoever rejects YOU rejects ME. And whoever rejects ME rejects the ONE who sent ME."
 

robert derrick

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Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Believing Jesus is the substance of our hope for eternal salvation, and obeying Jesus is the evidence of it.

There is no believing Jesus without obeying Him.

There is no hope for eternal salvation without obedience to the faith of Jesus.

Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Faith alone is dead, and salvation by faith alone lasts until the grave only.
 

BreadOfLife

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Works are indeed a by product of faith.
The woman in Luke 7:47 loved BECAUSE she had first received the forgiveness of God by faith.
And we learn from Scripture that we must RESPOND to God's calling in order to receive forgiveness and the Holy Spirit . . .
Acts 2:38

And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you WILL receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

James goes on to describe what true faith actually IS - not what true faith produces (James 2:14-24).

An Paul reminds us that true faith (not just belief, not just works) ONLY works through love/charity (1 Cor. 13:1-13, Gal. 5:6).
 

robert derrick

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You have to be a believer when Christ returns to be saved from his wrath when he returns.

I find it interesting that you think a person who used to believe but doesn't anymore is a person who is dead in Christ and hidden with Christ and will appear with him when he returns. Unbelievers, whether they used to believe or not, are not saved. I can't believe we even have to have this discussion. This was understood very well and did not even need to be discussed just 20 or 25 years ago.
I can't believe we even have to have this discussion.

Now, you've come to it. 'Discussing' with saved by faith alone is futile.

We can let them expose more and more of their wresting of Scripture, which is informative, but any personal fellowship in the Scripture is long since gone.

It's only scholastic at this point.
 
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robert derrick

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Feel free to clear up this glaring contradiction.
Yes, they can stop believing. But Jesus remains faithful.

If one "stops believing" and stays "not believing" The Bible said they were never saved to begin with.

OSAS says. Not the Bible.

'Stay' no believing is the point.

OSAS is willing to acknowledge 'temporary' unbelief in the life of a Christian, which in terms of disobedience is true in going astray:

If a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?

But, if they go to living like a pig and dog again, without coming to themselves as the prodigal, then they must never have been saved in the first place.

They judge that's not possible according to the false doctrine, so they judge when to write people off as never having been saved.

It's the only way to believe in unconditionally secured eternal salvation by faith alone.

Plus, it makes it convenient to have no need to mourn for them as former brother and sister, no matter how much good fellowship they had in the past.

It's like cults: you're only as good as your loyalty, and once you leave them, they that were beloved are now just dirt for scorning as pigs and dogs.

But Paul sorrowed over those that had departed the faith, and beseeched all believers to continue in obedience, lest the same happen to us.

Paul included himself in that warning, so that he kept his body in subjection by obedience to the faith of Jesus , lest he also become a castaway.

Those who are 'saved' by faith alone never need worry about such things, because salvation by faith alone is dead on arrival, being the ones never having eternal salvation with faithful obedience to Jesus in the first place.
 

BreadOfLife

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Do you know what this means?

"...we will be ready to punish every act of disobedience, once your obedience is complete." 2 Corinthians 10:6
It's more proof of the fallacy of OSAS.
When you cross-reference this verse with 2 Cor. 2:8-9, a few chapters earlier:

2 Cor. 2:8-9
Therefore, I urge you to reaffirm your love for him. For this is why I wrote, to know your proven character, whether you were obedient in everything.

Paul is admonishing Christians - not non-believers - to to get their community in order.
This entire letter is an admonishment of the Church in Corinth to get back on the right track so Paul doesn't have to crack the whip when he gets there.

We are NOIT guaranteed a ticket to Heaven once we come to Christ - UNLESS we endure in faith and obedience.
 

robert derrick

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Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.

Works of obedience is not falling from the grace of salvation, but rather works of obedience to the wrong persuasion: a false faith and rule not of Jesus.

The Galatians were not fallen from grace for obeying the truth, but for obeying a lie: we must be circumcised in flesh for salvation.

Works of salvation are only anathema to a salvation that is by faith alone, but is necessary to Jesus' eternal salvation for them that obey Him: the truth.

OSAS of modern times demonized 'works', in order to justify faith alone, which is dead.

It is the 'Christianity' for liberals, who still like to think they are good on the inside while approving all manner of corruption on the outside.

OSAS is 'woke' Christianity, which no more needs obedience to the truth for eternal salvation, but faith alone gets them to heaven.

Just believing they are saved is enough.

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath.


We are either obeying the truth or unrighteousness: Saved by faith alone says there is an in between lukewarm hid in Christ for eternal salvation.

Well, they certainly have to be hid in Christ, because there is no evidence of the faith otherwise.

Them that believe the truth and love the truth obey the truth. Them that don't obey the truth, don't love the truth, because they don't believe the truth, but a lie: salvation by faith alone.
 

Ferris Bueller

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Paul is admonishing Christians - not non-believers - to to get their community in order.
This entire letter is an admonishment of the Church in Corinth to get back on the right track so Paul doesn't have to crack the whip when he gets there.
The point of 2 Corinthians 10:6 is that there are sins immature believers commit that they are unrepentant about because of a lack of awareness and their state of immaturity. As long as they are believing those sins are covered by the blood they believe and trust in. But there will come a day when their obedience is expected in those areas and they will be expected to walk in repentance concerning those sins. And if they don't they put their salvation in jeopardy because at that point they are willfully sinning, and willful sin is, ultimately, a decision to not trust in the blood of Christ any more. A.k.a. unbelief.

See, unlike Catholicism, Protestants aren't getting re-saved every Sunday through some required ceremony or liturgical process because of sin we have committed since the last time we got resaved, last Sunday. We understand from Hebrews 7 and 10 that Jesus is a one time Sacrifice that continually intercedes on behalf of the one who trusts in that Sacrifice. It's only when the believer decides to go back to willful sin in unbelief that he loses the completed and ongoing Ministry and Sacrifice of Jesus.
 

Ferris Bueller

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Secondly, I disagree with you that BOTH Catholic and Protestant theologies are corrupt to some extent
Well, of course you do, lol.
There is no one entity or organization in the world today that knows and teaches the complete truth.
That can only be found in scripture itself and discerned on an individual basis as you read the Bible for yourself and share with other individuals who do the same thing. It has been this way for a looooooong time. You can be sure it was that way when Catholics and Protestants thought you could put to death those who did not agree with their official doctrines.

The real church of Christ, composed of those who genuinely believe and trust in His blood, are in exile scattered among all the nations of the world. And the day will come when we lay aside these earthly tents we worship in now, as we drag them through the desert of this life, and we will enter into our eternal and permanent dwelling.
 

BreadOfLife

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The point of 2 Corinthians 10:6 is that there are sins immature believers commit that they are unrepentant about because of a lack of awareness and their state of immaturity. As long as they are believing those sins are covered by the blood they believe and trust in. But there will come a day when their obedience is expected in those areas and they will be expected to walk in repentance concerning those sins. And if they don't they put their salvation in jeopardy because at that point they are willfully sinning, and willful sin is, ultimately, a decision to not trust in the blood of Christ any more. A.k.a. unbelief.

See, unlike Catholicism, Protestants aren't getting re-saved every Sunday through some required ceremony or liturgical process because of sin we have committed since the last time we got resaved, last Sunday. We understand from Hebrews 7 and 10 that Jesus is a one time Sacrifice that continually intercedes on behalf of the one who trusts in that Sacrifice. It's only when the believer decides to go back to willful sin in unbelief that he loses the completed and ongoing Ministry and Sacrifice of Jesus.
And this is nothing but another perversion of what the Catholic Church teaches. I openly challenge you to show me - from the Catechism - that the Church teaches that we are "RE-saved" every Sunday because of our reception of the Eucharist. This is just a flat-out LIE and is beneath any REAL Christian apologist.

Not only do we believe in Jesus's ONE time sacrifice - we taught YOU and the rest of the world about it. Jesus is not "re-sacrificed" at every mass. His ETERNAL Sacrifice is RE-presented.

As to your 2nd statement above in RED - a I agree, but it's not always a matter of "unbelief". I know PLENTY of people who still claim to believe and and consider themselves to be Christian - but live lives of willful sin.
It's more a matter of disobedience - bot unbelief.
 

BreadOfLife

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I don't believe OSAS doctrine.
Haven't you been able to see that, lol?
To be honest - I haven't read your posts - until you responded to mine.
I guess I assumed that since you were trying to refute what I was saying - that you were a proponent of OSAS.