Secure Eternal Salvation

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BreadOfLife

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The people in Matthew 7:20-23, standing before Christ at the Judgment, believe they have true works. Their boast is in their works ("did we not..."), not their faith. We don't know for sure if they have some kind of claim to faith in God. We just know they have a claim to works. That is the context of the passage—works ("by their fruit you shall know them"). Which they have...just not the works that prove the presence of justifying faith.
Wrong.
The CONTEXT of Matt. 7:21 is that unless faith is manifested by DOING the will of God - then it is NOT true faith.

The problem is that these people thought they were doing God's will because they were MISLED. The 6 verses prior tp this attest to that as they warn about false teachers/prophets.
Works are an essential element of true faith (James 2:14-14, Gal. 6:8) - nut just a "by-product" of it.
 

BreadOfLife

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Only if that sin is indicative of unbelief, and not the weakness, or sloth, or ignorance, or just plain foolishness of the genuine believer. As long as you continue to believe, your failures are covered by the blood of Christ. Only the sin of unbelief is not covered by the blood for the person who has believed. Ultimately, you can't have the ongoing benefit of the intercessory ministry of Christ that you no longer believe and trust in. But as long as the believer continues in his believing all his failures as a believer are covered.
This is nonsense.
the Bible doesn't teach this - nor did the Church for the first 1500 years of its existence.

NOWHERE does Scripture teach that unrepented sin is forgiven at ANY stage in our life.
As a matter of fact, as Christians, we are held to a HIGHER standard when it comes to sin because we are supposed to recognize it more readily.

That's why we are warned so many times NOT to fall back into darkness and LOSE our security. These warnings are NOT for the unbeliever - but the born-again believer . . .
Matt. 10:22, Matt. 24:13, Matt. 25:31–46, John 15:1-6, Rom. 11:22, 1 Cor. 9:27, 1 Cor. 4:4, 1 Tim. 4:1, Heb. 3:6, Heb. 3:12-14, Heb 6:4-6, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet. 3:17, 1 John 2:24, 1 John 5:13, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19


 

Robert Gwin

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That's a fact. Even Paul, from whom we get the 'justification apart from works' gospel, said the faith that justifies is the faith that obeys...

"All that matters (towards justification) is faith, expressed through love." Galatians 5:6

And so what that means is faith in the blood of Christ to wash away your sin guilt is the faith that moves you to obey God's commands, summed up in 'love your neighbor as yourself'.

"...because her many sins have been forgiven, she has loved much." Luke 7:47
See it? Because her many sins have been forgiven, she loved much.
And notice Jesus says it is her faith that saved her, not the obedience of her love:

And Jesus told the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.” Luke 7:50
Faith without action is dead and can not save, because faith without obedience is not the faith that saves. It isn't really faith. If it was, it would work.


That is why you have to take the Bible as a whole Ferris. For example one might take this passage:
Joh 6:47Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. and fully believe that because they believe in Jesus they have everlasting life in store for them. Is the verse wrong? No, but we can see from other verses in the Bible that more is necessary. Take for example the individuals that were recorded at Mat 7:21-23, they believed in Jesus so much that they were able to do amazing things in Jesus' name, but Jesus called them workers of lawlessness. Why? Because they did not do the will of Jehovah, they worshiped Him in a way that was not His desires. Jesus made it clear, doing the will of Jehovah is a requirement for salvation.
 

Ferris Bueller

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That is why you have to take the Bible as a whole Ferris. For example one might take this passage:
Joh 6:47Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. and fully believe that because they believe in Jesus they have everlasting life in store for them. Is the verse wrong? No, but we can see from other verses in the Bible that more is necessary. Take for example the individuals that were recorded at Mat 7:21-23, they believed in Jesus so much that they were able to do amazing things in Jesus' name, but Jesus called them workers of lawlessness. Why? Because they did not do the will of Jehovah, they worshiped Him in a way that was not His desires. Jesus made it clear, doing the will of Jehovah is a requirement for salvation.
It's interesting that in this passage the diligence of "work and the love" is equated with "faith and patience" :

"God is not unjust. He will not forget your work and the love you have shown for His name as you have ministered to the saints and continue to do so.11We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure. 12Then you will not be sluggish, but will imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised." Hebrews 6:10-12

Meanwhile, most in the church create a clear delineation between works and faith when it comes to the eternal inheritance. It seems most Christians are quite content with just having faith, alone, no works attached. Not knowing that working is how you have faith and patience. They have been taught that is a works gospel.
 

Ferris Bueller

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NOWHERE does Scripture teach that unrepented sin is forgiven at ANY stage in our life.
Willful unrepentance is what is ultimately not covered by the blood for the believing Christian.
Meanwhile, the Sacrifice of High Priest Jesus covers the failures and shortcomings of the believer growing up into the stature of Christ.
The believer may not be aware of some of his failures and shortcomings. But just like under the old covenant, the High Priest's Sacrifice covers the sins of the people of God that they are not aware of and are not being called to account for because of ignorance or immaturity.
 
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robert derrick

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"There is a sin that leads to death; I am not saying he should ask regarding that sin. 17All unrighteousness is sin, yet there is sin that does not lead to death." 1 John 5:16-17
I think the sin unto death is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. That is, willful unbelief in the face of irrefutable evidence. The sin that, ultimately, once you are turned over to, you can not come back from.
That's fair.

An unconfessed sin leading to judgement of unbelief: them overthrown in the wilderness never confessed nor repented in their hearts, which God saw in their hearts and so were judged unbelievers: they were trapped in the wilderness, and wanted to return to the slavery of Egypt where their sins were left behind.

So the 'sin of unbelief' would be sin unto unbelief.

So it would be any sin unconfessed and unrepented unto reprobation, where God gives up on the 'believer', because their faith is become dead by wicked works of the world, and become reprobate to every good work. I.e. it's not an 'isolated' besetting sin.

We can sin seventy times seven and be forgiven seventy times seven with confession.

However, we can also mock God by the carnal mindedness of presuming confession and forgiveness. We can only confess from the heart if God draws us to the cross. If He gives up on us by 'sinning away our day of grace': the space of time God gives to repent (Rev 2:21), then that is where there remaineth no more sacrifice for sin, by putting Christ to an open shame in hypocrisy of faith.

Which is where Once Saved By Faith Only leads, especially when taught with all sins of future are already forgiven.

Unconfessed and repented sin can also be false doctrine that leads to unbelief, or is unbelief in the beginning, such as Once Saved By Faith Only, which is a hard lie to be repented of, because it is so subtly tempting.

What carnal mind wouldn't want to believe they are going to heaven, no matter how they live, because they are forever 'saved' by believing it only, and all future sins are as guaranteed forgiven as their salvation??

Sounds like the thinking of Adam and Eve in the garden: they will be as gods themselves with their own eternal life, independent of the commandments of the Lord!

It is a devilish recipe for disaster: We will surely sin and transgress, but it's already forgiven. So don't worry about it. Just feel bad for a little bit, and God will see our 'Godly sorrow', which is another lie. Godly sorrow worketh repentance, which is not just mental sorriness, but a work of repentance: Being sorry about being caught is the sorrow of the world, as was Esau.
 

Ferris Bueller

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The problem is that these people thought they were doing God's will because they were MISLED. The 6 verses prior tp this attest to that as they warn about false teachers/prophets.
That is correct.
And it isn't because they didn't have works. They had the wrong works. Works that in no way signify the presence of saving faith.
 

BreadOfLife

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Willful unrepentance is what is ultimately not covered by the blood for the believing Christian.
Meanwhile, the Sacrifice of High Priest Jesus covers the failures and shortcomings of the believer growing up into the stature of Christ.
The believer may not be aware of some of his failures and shortcomings. But just like under the old covenant, the High Priest's Sacrifice covers the sins of the people of God that they are not aware of and are not being called to account for because of ignorance or immaturity.
And the entire point of this has been that even the born again believer can be willfully unrepentant at any point and LOSE his security. Once again, I don't think I need to list the verses that repeatedly warn us about this.

Endurance in faith requires our cooperation with God's grace (Matt. 16:24, Luke 9:23, John 14:15, 15:10, James 1:22).


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BreadOfLife

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Works are indeed a by product of faith.
The woman in Luke 7:47 loved BECAUSE she had first received the forgiveness of God by faith.
As I pointed out before - (James 2:14-14, Gal. 6:8, 1 Cor. 13:1-13) describe the essence of what true faith is - NOT what causes good works.

The INITIAL grace to believe is a gift that we have nothing to do with.
But, accepting that gift and enduring in faith requires our cooperation with His grace.
 
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Wynona

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Here's the conclusion of the OSAS arguments against the Author of eternal salvation for all them that believe Him:

All OSAS is supposed to be about is not 'losing' salvation, cone salvation has begun: Once Saved Always Saved.

They cannot deny eternal salvation plainly comes with obedience to the faith of Jesus, even as He obeyed to the cross.

So, OSAS, who is supposed to only be about not 'losing' what is once begun, would simply teach: Any obedient believer of Jesus is eternally secure in the salvation of Christ.

The argument is not supposed to be against obedience, but against obedient believers ever possibly 'losing' eternal salvation. Right?

But no. They have argued vehemently against any obedience to the faith being with, and accompanying eternal salvation: when speaking of salvation, no calls to obedience is allowed. Ever!

Why?? No one is talking about 'losing' salvation once begun, but only obeying the faith of salvation.

And so, it is manifest, that obedience is the problem, and obedience with salvation is anathema, which has nothing to do with salvation being temporary or eternal.

No one is talking about being saved by works of obedience, but only calling on the believers to be obedient to the faith they are saved by.

And yet, no matter how obedience is brought into the doctrine of salvation by grace, it is outright rejected has having no such place to even be mentioned.

And yet, eternal salvation is for all them that obey Him. Eternal salvation with no mention of obedience is false.

Therefore, salvation and obedience has no place together in the doctrine of OSAS, because it is not about obtaining and losing salvation, but about a salvation with no place for obedience.

OSAS is in reality a false doctrine of salvation by faith only, which is not Scripture. They preach salvation by faith only, being saved by faith only, and living by faith only, and works of obedience has not one thing to do with it.

OSAS only uses a phantom teaching about unconditional security never 'losing' salvation, which they don't care one whit about whether it is lost or not, but only about whether obedience is excluded or not.

They do not teach salvation by faith, but they teach salvation by faith only to the exclusion of obedience. It is the opposite of salvation by works to the exclusion of faith: Obedience without faith is not pleasing God, and faith without obedience is no faith at all.

OSAS is all about a temporary salvation of faith only, which has nothing eternal about it, because eternal salvation without obedience is not Authored by Jesus.

They have no problem with allowing for disobedience of sins on a daily basis, but any call to obedience on a daily basis is scorned, ridiculed, blasphemed against, and denounced as being from the pit of hell:

But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.


OSAS does not just teach faith only for salvation, but also faith only during salvation, which is the very definition of unconditional salvation without works accompanying.

I gleaned a lot from this.

Mainly, why OSAS is such a strong opinion by so many.

The real crux of the issue is not loss of salvation, but how important obedience is to the life of the believer. This is where the true divide is.

This is why it's so important to be in the Scriptures and not just into theological traditions.

Scripture is, frankly, a lot tougher on sin than I would be. It emphasizes obedience way more than what I originally thought.
 

farouk

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I gleaned a lot from this.

Mainly, why OSAS is such a strong opinion by so many.

The real crux of the issue is not loss of salvation, but how important obedience is to the life of the believer. This is where the true divide is.

This is why it's so important to be in the Scriptures and not just into theological traditions.

Scripture is, frankly, a lot tougher on sin than I would be. It emphasizes obedience way more than what I originally thought.
@Wynona Ephesians 2 verses 8, 9 and 10 all go together, right? :)
 

Ferris Bueller

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As I pointed out before - (James 2:14-14, Gal. 6:8, 1 Cor. 13:1-13) describe the essence of what true faith is - NOT what causes good works.

The INITIAL grace to believe is a gift that we have nothing to do with.
But, accepting that gift and enduring in faith requires our cooperation with His grace.
I don't know why you're arguing with me.
I guess because I'm not Catholic you automatically think I'm Calvinist, lol.

You're going to have to understand that since both Catholic and Protestant theologies are corrupt to some extent there are those of us who read the Bible for ourselves and through the anointing and gifts that all believers have we discern the truth apart from the corrupt teachings and influences of the man-made institutions that exist today. So don't automatically put me in Calvin's camp, lol. It's me and God and other believers like me who read the Bible for ourselves discerning it's message through the Holy Spirit. We are few and we do not belong to the corrupt, worldly institutions people call the 'church' in existence at this time in church history. So don't assume anything. We talk about and operate in specific and individual doctrines, not official fabricated systems of theology.
 

robert derrick

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It tickles the ears.
And then sears the conscience with a hot iron.

OSAS was a hot new doctrine for modern times.

It relieved all pressure to obey with their salvation, and so have no need to obey for their soul's sake.

No more wrestling with the Lord over our own will, as both Jacob and Jesus did.

It never had anything to do with 'losing' salvation, and has everything to do with being saved and living by faith alone, which is dead on arrival.

It is purely a temporal salvation for the carnal mind that wants to beveling in being saved, and ends at the grave.

It is the whited milk for babies that never grow up, because they never learn obedience unto death, because they never need to:

How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.

They do not need the grace that is help in time of need to overcome temptation, because they have an idolized grace than cannot be 'touched' by disobedience to God.
 
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Wynona

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I want to say from experience how confusing it was for me before I learned the biblical version of grace.

One prominent reformed Pastor said "We only get better when we realize that if we never get any better, God still loves us."

He explained that grace means our sin is no longer the problem.

So I figured that when I was sinning, it wasn't from a lack of effort but because I was trying too hard to be good and therefore not resting in the grace of God.

Surely if I rested enough in God's grace, I wouldn't want to sin anymore, right?

Wrong.

I still wanted to sin. And sin mopped the floor up with me. See, I thought that because we were saved by grace through faith alone that my fruit and sanctification was an automatic add-on to me resting in grace and God's love. That is what I was taught and promised.

This ultimately distracted me from God's call to me to obey Him and to actively resist the devil so he would flee from me.

When I read the Scriptures, I learned that the true evidence of saving faith is obedience. I also learned that many of the popular pastors, teachers, and theologians had led me astray and that I was better off reading the Scriptures and learning that way, rather than the confusing hyper-grace principles that sounded really really good on paper, but did not hold up.
 
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