I'm curious what you think you are adding to the conversation with posts like this. Well, not really, just hoping you'll think about it more. If contribution is what you want to do, do that, if something else . . .
Much love!
Secure Eternal Salvation
- Thread starter robert derrick
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Much love!
If your eternal life depends on you obeying God as Jesus did.
God forbid obeying God as Jesus did.
Then everyone is out of the running, and we should all go do something else, something useful.
I.e. you know the doctrine of obedience to the faith is true, and if that is the result you get from it, then according to your faith be it unto you.
Some people have a very serious issue with obedience to the faith, to accompany eternal salvation for all them that obey Him.
And it has nothing to do with some pseudo doctrine about unconditional eternal security, but everything to do with disobedience to God.
OSAS is nothing more than an invention to distract people from their serious problem of disobedience.
And rather then teaching grace to help them them from sins, they help them to sin with grace: to sin graciously.
If your eternal life depends on you obeying God as Jesus did.
The things being said here out of the abundance of the heart of OSAS just keep getting more marvellously incredible:
And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel?
"Because I just can't believe the things I am hearing from them that claim faith in Jesus unto eternal salvation!"
How did Jesus learn obedience? By enduring the feeling of His infirmity, which He Himself suffered in the garden and to the cross unto death.
Which is exactly how He became the Author of eternal salvation for all them that obey Him, likewise as He obeyed the Father. Because even as the Father helped the Son, so the Son and the Father will help them that love Him:
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
Eternal salvation is only for them that obey Him, not for them that believe Him only.
Eternal salvation is for them that obey Him, because our souls depend upon it.
The things being said here out of the abundance of the heart of OSAS just keep getting more marvellously incredible:
And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel?
"Because I just can't believe the things I am hearing from them that claim faith in Jesus unto eternal salvation!"
How did Jesus learn obedience? By enduring the feeling of His infirmity, which He Himself suffered in the garden and to the cross unto death.
Which is exactly how He became the Author of eternal salvation for all them that obey Him, likewise as He obeyed the Father. Because even as the Father helped the Son, so the Son and the Father will help them that love Him:
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
Eternal salvation is only for them that obey Him, not for them that believe Him only.
Eternal salvation is for them that obey Him, because our souls depend upon it.
I don't think you are giving proper due to sin and disobedience. I'm betting you don't feel this way, but your words to me read soft on sin and disobedience.
As if sin and disobedience are strictly prohibited, but, not really, cuz' after all, no matter how hard you try, you still sin sometimes. Isn't that right?
I think I sin every day, myself, not that I'm the proper judge. And that's the other thing! We don't even know ourselves well enough to be able to judge our obedience.
So I'm thinking that everyone who says that we have to obey like Jesus, is overlooking a good lot of what we do. You realize, impatience is a sin? It's not the Spirit. All that is not of faith is sin. All.
I'm thinking we actually need what God says we have, an high priest by the power of an endless life, who lives forever to make intercession for us. Not just for those big sins we all recognize, and many of us avoid. But even for those "little" hidden sins of the heart, maybe even hidden from ourselves!
Much love!
Then who has eternal salvation? I would suggest that under this rule, none would.
Much love!
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
You're the one that needs to contribute and add to the conversation. It was a legit question, and now you need to answer it. You challenged him, and he challenged you right back.
I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
OSAS truly is the smokescreen and cover for faith alone. They preach hoping for a salvation by faith only, which is the false hope of a temporal salvation by faith that is dead.
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
They appease the conscience of the disobedient to Him, that only want to believe they believe in Him, and not be bothered by the cloudstorms of disobedience.
And so, they preach that hope as white puffy clouds for happy thoughts in the day of sin.
What we believe. What we choose to do based on what we believe about God, and His Word to us.
Obedience is not a choice. It's not open for discussion with God. We either obey the faith, or we don't, and judgement of wrath is upon all them that disobey:
Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
Neither be seduced by their fair speeches with smiling face of happy whited thoughts in mind. Because the latter end thereof is always worse than the beginning:
And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails.
Eternal unconditional salvation is non-negotiable eternal salvation for all them that believe and obey Him, not just believe in being happy.
Salvation is not believing we are saved, nor more than happiness is thinking we are happy:
But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.
And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
OSAS truly is the smokescreen and cover for faith alone. They preach hoping for a salvation by faith only, which is the false hope of a temporal salvation by faith that is dead.
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
They appease the conscience of the disobedient to Him, that only want to believe they believe in Him, and not be bothered by the cloudstorms of disobedience.
And so, they preach that hope as white puffy clouds for happy thoughts in the day of sin.
What we believe. What we choose to do based on what we believe about God, and His Word to us.
Obedience is not a choice. It's not open for discussion with God. We either obey the faith, or we don't, and judgement of wrath is upon all them that disobey:
Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
Neither be seduced by their fair speeches with smiling face of happy whited thoughts in mind. Because the latter end thereof is always worse than the beginning:
And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails.
Eternal unconditional salvation is non-negotiable eternal salvation for all them that believe and obey Him, not just believe in being happy.
Salvation is not believing we are saved, nor more than happiness is thinking we are happy:
But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.
I guess that's it. Do we add to faith by works? Or do we show faith by works?
Much love!
How much have you done since "being saved"?
Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
Then who has eternal salvation?
With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
Do we add to faith by works? Or do we show faith by works?
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
We show our faith by our works, and and so, we show what we add to our faith by our works of added faith.
You going to ask me what to do with a penny now?
Do you ask these things as a disciple or a snare?
God giveth grace to the humble, but He taketh the crafty in their own craftiness.
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Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
"There is a sin that leads to death; I am not saying he should ask regarding that sin. 17All unrighteousness is sin, yet there is sin that does not lead to death." 1 John 5:16-17
I think the sin unto death is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. That is, willful unbelief in the face of irrefutable evidence. The sin that, ultimately, once you are turned over to, you can not come back from.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Yes they can stop believing. But Jesus remains faithful.
Remember this passage:
Philippians 1:6
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
theree is no exception for if one stops believing! If you think it was important- don't you think that god would have made sure Paul would have added that???????
We have at least 4 passages that show that there are people who by appearances were believers and let because they never were1 why do you feel compelled to have to correct God and add the exeption , as long as they keep believing< to all the passages where it does not appear????
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
YOu need to go to the Greek and realize that the faith for salvation is a once for all time gift. You make it a basis of work (keep on believing) that is error.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
all you are doing is masking a maintaining salvation by works by saying one has to keep believing. So if a person has a bad week and for that week stops believing- you have him lost forever?
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
External obedience is a visible sign that one is saved. but it is not the conclusive sign nor the primary sign. God sees those who are his no matter how many good works or lack thereof are present in their life.
Works can be done that seem "good" but are actually motivated by ego.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well the answer lies in the word true! If one "stops believing" and stay "not believing" The Bible said they were never saved to begin with. I care not what Jacob Armenius or John Calvin taught. But the bible says we are dead and our lives are hidden with Christ. And when Jesus appears, we shall appear with him- with no caveat added as you insist we do.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
I understand Scripture just fine! It is you who rewrite Scripture to fall in line with your romanist masters.
It matters not if a person believes they have the true faith. Jesus showed in Matt. 7 that many who THINK they have it actually do not! That is the Scripture as written.
And romans 10:9, when kept in its full context shows that yes whoever calls on the Lord will be saved!
And I never said that true faith has no works. Saving faith works. But the works do not save a soul! They are the result of a soul being saved! And many "good" works God will show to be actually evil because they were not done in faith but in a hidden agenda.
And go back and read James again. Oh never mind you wi9ll look at it and probably twist it. so I wil lpost it!
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
YOu declare that this is some kind of saving faith- it is not. Believing in God does not save a soul! Believing God is one, does not save a soul. Mental assent to the death and resurrection of Jesus does not save a soul. Trust (which is the biblical faith) in the death and resurrection of Jesus for the complete payment for your sin debt is what saves. The good works come as a result of that trust (pistis).
Faith without works is dead! But that dead does not mean the person is unsaved. The issue is whether you are a child of God or not. If not you are lost no matter how "hoply", "pious" and "religious" you are. Matt. 7 proves that as well as the parable of the wheat and weeds. If you are saved then you are a child of God and then you are either an obedient child or a disobedient child. When we disobey, god often lets the natural consequences of sin to affect us so we may learn to hate it more. But we are still a child. Boy I hope you don't deal with your natural children in the way you falsely picture your father in heaven does to His children. According to you- screw upi and you are no longer a child.
But teh rejoicing truth is, once we are made children of God We are His children forever. We may disobey, lose our fellowship with god, but we can never break the relationship, just like your children can never become your un-children.
Here's the conclusion of the OSAS arguments against the Author of eternal salvation for all them that believe Him:
All OSAS is supposed to be about is not 'losing' salvation, cone salvation has begun: Once Saved Always Saved.
They cannot deny eternal salvation plainly comes with obedience to the faith of Jesus, even as He obeyed to the cross.
So, OSAS, who is supposed to only be about not 'losing' what is once begun, would simply teach: Any obedient believer of Jesus is eternally secure in the salvation of Christ.
The argument is not supposed to be against obedience, but against obedient believers ever possibly 'losing' eternal salvation. Right?
But no. They have argued vehemently against any obedience to the faith being with, and accompanying eternal salvation: when speaking of salvation, no calls to obedience is allowed. Ever!
Why?? No one is talking about 'losing' salvation once begun, but only obeying the faith of salvation.
And so, it is manifest, that obedience is the problem, and obedience with salvation is anathema, which has nothing to do with salvation being temporary or eternal.
No one is talking about being saved by works of obedience, but only calling on the believers to be obedient to the faith they are saved by.
And yet, no matter how obedience is brought into the doctrine of salvation by grace, it is outright rejected has having no such place to even be mentioned.
And yet, eternal salvation is for all them that obey Him. Eternal salvation with no mention of obedience is false.
Therefore, salvation and obedience has no place together in the doctrine of OSAS, because it is not about obtaining and losing salvation, but about a salvation with no place for obedience.
OSAS is in reality a false doctrine of salvation by faith only, which is not Scripture. They preach salvation by faith only, being saved by faith only, and living by faith only, and works of obedience has not one thing to do with it.
OSAS only uses a phantom teaching about unconditional security never 'losing' salvation, which they don't care one whit about whether it is lost or not, but only about whether obedience is excluded or not.
They do not teach salvation by faith, but they teach salvation by faith only to the exclusion of obedience. It is the opposite of salvation by works to the exclusion of faith: Obedience without faith is not pleasing God, and faith without obedience is no faith at all.
OSAS is all about a temporary salvation of faith only, which has nothing eternal about it, because eternal salvation without obedience is not Authored by Jesus.
They have no problem with allowing for disobedience of sins on a daily basis, but any call to obedience on a daily basis is scorned, ridiculed, blasphemed against, and denounced as being from the pit of hell:
But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
OSAS does not just teach faith only for salvation, but also faith only during salvation, which is the very definition of unconditional salvation without works accompanying.
All OSAS is supposed to be about is not 'losing' salvation, cone salvation has begun: Once Saved Always Saved.
They cannot deny eternal salvation plainly comes with obedience to the faith of Jesus, even as He obeyed to the cross.
So, OSAS, who is supposed to only be about not 'losing' what is once begun, would simply teach: Any obedient believer of Jesus is eternally secure in the salvation of Christ.
The argument is not supposed to be against obedience, but against obedient believers ever possibly 'losing' eternal salvation. Right?
But no. They have argued vehemently against any obedience to the faith being with, and accompanying eternal salvation: when speaking of salvation, no calls to obedience is allowed. Ever!
Why?? No one is talking about 'losing' salvation once begun, but only obeying the faith of salvation.
And so, it is manifest, that obedience is the problem, and obedience with salvation is anathema, which has nothing to do with salvation being temporary or eternal.
No one is talking about being saved by works of obedience, but only calling on the believers to be obedient to the faith they are saved by.
And yet, no matter how obedience is brought into the doctrine of salvation by grace, it is outright rejected has having no such place to even be mentioned.
And yet, eternal salvation is for all them that obey Him. Eternal salvation with no mention of obedience is false.
Therefore, salvation and obedience has no place together in the doctrine of OSAS, because it is not about obtaining and losing salvation, but about a salvation with no place for obedience.
OSAS is in reality a false doctrine of salvation by faith only, which is not Scripture. They preach salvation by faith only, being saved by faith only, and living by faith only, and works of obedience has not one thing to do with it.
OSAS only uses a phantom teaching about unconditional security never 'losing' salvation, which they don't care one whit about whether it is lost or not, but only about whether obedience is excluded or not.
They do not teach salvation by faith, but they teach salvation by faith only to the exclusion of obedience. It is the opposite of salvation by works to the exclusion of faith: Obedience without faith is not pleasing God, and faith without obedience is no faith at all.
OSAS is all about a temporary salvation of faith only, which has nothing eternal about it, because eternal salvation without obedience is not Authored by Jesus.
They have no problem with allowing for disobedience of sins on a daily basis, but any call to obedience on a daily basis is scorned, ridiculed, blasphemed against, and denounced as being from the pit of hell:
But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
OSAS does not just teach faith only for salvation, but also faith only during salvation, which is the very definition of unconditional salvation without works accompanying.
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The real argument is not about obtaining and losing salvation. That is sideshow of distraction, that no one takes seriously.
It is about being saved by grace through faith, or through faith only. Faith only being dead, because it is along and without God.
There is no believing Jesus without obeying Jesus, because believing Him is obeying Him, and so His eternal salvation is for all them that believe to obey Him.
If we are not obeying Him, we are not believing Him, and eternal salvation is not for us.
What is not of ourselves, is the faith of Jesus, which is the gift of God that saves, because the faith of Jesus obeys Him.
What is of ourselves is a salvation by faith only, where we are saved only because we believe we are saved, which has nothing to do with Scripture.
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
Them that believe Jesus, obey Jesus, and they have an understanding given to them by the gift of Jesus: His faith. Which is the understanding that there is no faith of Jesus without obeying Him.
Salvation by grace is not by faith only. That is not Scripture, nor teaching of Scripture, but is contrary to Scripture.
The eternal salvation of Jesus is by grace for them that obey Him, because they believe Him, not by works of our own righteousness without His faith, but by grace in obedience to His faith.
Believing in salvation is not believing Jesus.
Believing Jesus is obeying Jesus, but believing in salvation is believing we are saved only, which has nothing to do with being saved by believing and obeying Jesus, whereby we know we have eternal life.
With Jesus, believing is obeying, and not obeying is not believing, and unbelief is death:
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Show us a believer only, believing in salvation by faith only, and we will see a dead believer of faith only.
Salvation by grace through faith only is a myth and a devilish lie, used only to separate faith from works of faith, which is dead faith that does not save.
Salvation by grace through the gift of faith of God, is not anathema to works, but is the surety of obedience to God, by which we are justified with God and called a Friend of God, as Abraham was by works.
There is no salvation of God, standing 'isolated' from works of faith of God. The salvation of God is not eternally and graciously aloof from obedience to God. It is not a salvation by grace that cannot be 'touched' by sins of disobedience. That is a mystical salvation of an idolized grace, separated from God and His faith that obeys Him:
Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.
Now, if someone wants to dispute eternal security of them that continue to believe and obey the Lord unto the end. I won't argue with it.
"But that's not possible!! Who then can be saved unto the end??"
With God all things are possible, and with God nothing shall be impossible, but without obedience to God nothing is possible, especially not salvation.
Who argues against obedience to the faith of our salvation, for eternal salvation to them that obey??
The disobedient, of course.
It is about being saved by grace through faith, or through faith only. Faith only being dead, because it is along and without God.
There is no believing Jesus without obeying Jesus, because believing Him is obeying Him, and so His eternal salvation is for all them that believe to obey Him.
If we are not obeying Him, we are not believing Him, and eternal salvation is not for us.
What is not of ourselves, is the faith of Jesus, which is the gift of God that saves, because the faith of Jesus obeys Him.
What is of ourselves is a salvation by faith only, where we are saved only because we believe we are saved, which has nothing to do with Scripture.
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
Them that believe Jesus, obey Jesus, and they have an understanding given to them by the gift of Jesus: His faith. Which is the understanding that there is no faith of Jesus without obeying Him.
Salvation by grace is not by faith only. That is not Scripture, nor teaching of Scripture, but is contrary to Scripture.
The eternal salvation of Jesus is by grace for them that obey Him, because they believe Him, not by works of our own righteousness without His faith, but by grace in obedience to His faith.
Believing in salvation is not believing Jesus.
Believing Jesus is obeying Jesus, but believing in salvation is believing we are saved only, which has nothing to do with being saved by believing and obeying Jesus, whereby we know we have eternal life.
With Jesus, believing is obeying, and not obeying is not believing, and unbelief is death:
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Show us a believer only, believing in salvation by faith only, and we will see a dead believer of faith only.
Salvation by grace through faith only is a myth and a devilish lie, used only to separate faith from works of faith, which is dead faith that does not save.
Salvation by grace through the gift of faith of God, is not anathema to works, but is the surety of obedience to God, by which we are justified with God and called a Friend of God, as Abraham was by works.
There is no salvation of God, standing 'isolated' from works of faith of God. The salvation of God is not eternally and graciously aloof from obedience to God. It is not a salvation by grace that cannot be 'touched' by sins of disobedience. That is a mystical salvation of an idolized grace, separated from God and His faith that obeys Him:
Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.
Now, if someone wants to dispute eternal security of them that continue to believe and obey the Lord unto the end. I won't argue with it.
"But that's not possible!! Who then can be saved unto the end??"
With God all things are possible, and with God nothing shall be impossible, but without obedience to God nothing is possible, especially not salvation.
Who argues against obedience to the faith of our salvation, for eternal salvation to them that obey??
The disobedient, of course.
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