Refuting soul sleep, aka dirt nap doctrine
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Wrangler
Well-Known Member
OMG! The triune fallacy again. Paul talks about how the body has many parts. That does not make us a poly-une being.
Why did Jesus say people who died where sleeping?
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Where was Adam before he was created? He did not yet exist. But if God gave Adam a soul, and it exists independent of the body, and as such is the "real" Adam and existed prior to entering Adam does that mean Adam pre-existed creation?
Prior to his creation the dust of the ground existed, but it was not Adam. God had life in Himself long before He made man, but it was not Adam. In other words, while the dust of the ground and the breath of life from God were not combined by the process of creation, man did not yet exist. But when the two things--the earthly elements and the breath of life from God--were combined by the Creator in the proper way, this combination resulted in the existence of a living soul--man.
Prior to his creation the dust of the ground existed, but it was not Adam. God had life in Himself long before He made man, but it was not Adam. In other words, while the dust of the ground and the breath of life from God were not combined by the process of creation, man did not yet exist. But when the two things--the earthly elements and the breath of life from God--were combined by the Creator in the proper way, this combination resulted in the existence of a living soul--man.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Great point! The process flow is critical to understand the topic of Soul Sleep. 1st, God made a body. Then, he put his Spirit of Life into the body.
As Jesus said, give unto God what is God's.
Well I would certainly be in the Protestant camp, but the whole "soul sleep doctrine" is ridiculous, in my opinion. In our physical death, our body "sleeps," but we ourselves not so much. Part of being made in the image of God is that we ourselves are eternal beings, as He is... not eternity past and self-existing, as God is, of course, but we will all exist -- in one state/place or the other -- into eternity future. God does not annihilate anything that, as is clear in Genesis 1 He made and declared very good. I will get back to this, but first, the questions posed were:
Someone in a subsequent post answered:
That there is a continuation of consciousness is necessary considering that we know from ourselves that we can be aware of things having nothing to do with the body or "lower parts" of the soul, there is then no reason for that "portion of the soul" to stop having awareness of those things which it knows like that.
I would disagree with answer to question 1. Rather, my answer would be, to the same place as NT people of God. And regarding those not regenerate of the Spirit, to the same place as the OT people not among the people of God. God is the same God now as He was then.
Really like this answer to question number 2. Yes, God made us that way, and we will be that way again, upon the resurrection, which will take place upon Jesus's return. We will all be reunited with our physical bodies. What happens then depends on whether the person is on Jesus's right or left at the judgment. Those on the right will inherit the kingdom and enter into eternal life, and those on the left will depart... go away into eternal punishment. And regarding those on Jesus's right, God will make all His creation new again. This is Revelation 21:5. He is not making all new things, but rather making all things new again. This is the new heaven and new earth, which will finally be one.
To question number 3 regarding the time frame for being present with the Lord, I like the references above to Luke 20, but I think we can look to what Jesus said on the cross to the thief crucified on His right. He told him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in paradise" (Luke 23:43). Yes, God made us that way, and we will be that way again, upon the resurrection, which will take place upon Jesus's return. We will all be reunited with our physical bodies. What happens then depends on whether the person is on Jesus's right or left at the judgment. We will be with Christ that very day in paradise, just as he was.
On the other side of the "fence," as it were, as someone said above, we can look at Jesus's parable of Luke 16 and see that those who are not in Christ, upon their physical deaths and before Christ's return, are just as conscious and aware of their circumstances as those in and with Christ are/will be. And going back to Luke 23 above, that Jesus says nothing to the thief crucified on His left should not be interpreted to mean unbelievers will cease to exist but rather be... somewhere else... other than with the Lord in paradise.
So again, my answers in order:
Grace and peace to all!
1) Where did OT people of God go when they died?
2) We also have to ask, if one exists as a conscious disembodied spirit, then what's the point of a resurrection for both the just and unjust?
3) What is the time frame for being present with the Lord? For example, it has to be considered that if there's "soul sleep", time to the person means nothing, so the next conscious moment will be the resurrection, so one is with the Lord. Think of a time machine into the future c.f. Matthew 17:1-8
2) We also have to ask, if one exists as a conscious disembodied spirit, then what's the point of a resurrection for both the just and unjust?
3) What is the time frame for being present with the Lord? For example, it has to be considered that if there's "soul sleep", time to the person means nothing, so the next conscious moment will be the resurrection, so one is with the Lord. Think of a time machine into the future c.f. Matthew 17:1-8
Someone in a subsequent post answered:
1) Sheol, the dusty place of the dead, the righteous and unrighteous, to wait for the Harrowing.
2) Because man was made to have a body and soul, a unity of matter and spirit. It is unnatural for a human to be deprived of this and moreover existing in a separated state like that is a sign of death (death is in essence just disintegration) which God does not will, and in conquering death God will necessarily conquer this also.
3) I do not know, but it is almost certainly like the angels, who are spirits without bodies that are conscious, exist forever, and act in time. The disembodied Saints also act in time and are currently residing with the angels so whatever reference they have these also have.
2) Because man was made to have a body and soul, a unity of matter and spirit. It is unnatural for a human to be deprived of this and moreover existing in a separated state like that is a sign of death (death is in essence just disintegration) which God does not will, and in conquering death God will necessarily conquer this also.
3) I do not know, but it is almost certainly like the angels, who are spirits without bodies that are conscious, exist forever, and act in time. The disembodied Saints also act in time and are currently residing with the angels so whatever reference they have these also have.
That there is a continuation of consciousness is necessary considering that we know from ourselves that we can be aware of things having nothing to do with the body or "lower parts" of the soul, there is then no reason for that "portion of the soul" to stop having awareness of those things which it knows like that.
I would disagree with answer to question 1. Rather, my answer would be, to the same place as NT people of God. And regarding those not regenerate of the Spirit, to the same place as the OT people not among the people of God. God is the same God now as He was then.
Really like this answer to question number 2. Yes, God made us that way, and we will be that way again, upon the resurrection, which will take place upon Jesus's return. We will all be reunited with our physical bodies. What happens then depends on whether the person is on Jesus's right or left at the judgment. Those on the right will inherit the kingdom and enter into eternal life, and those on the left will depart... go away into eternal punishment. And regarding those on Jesus's right, God will make all His creation new again. This is Revelation 21:5. He is not making all new things, but rather making all things new again. This is the new heaven and new earth, which will finally be one.
To question number 3 regarding the time frame for being present with the Lord, I like the references above to Luke 20, but I think we can look to what Jesus said on the cross to the thief crucified on His right. He told him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in paradise" (Luke 23:43). Yes, God made us that way, and we will be that way again, upon the resurrection, which will take place upon Jesus's return. We will all be reunited with our physical bodies. What happens then depends on whether the person is on Jesus's right or left at the judgment. We will be with Christ that very day in paradise, just as he was.
On the other side of the "fence," as it were, as someone said above, we can look at Jesus's parable of Luke 16 and see that those who are not in Christ, upon their physical deaths and before Christ's return, are just as conscious and aware of their circumstances as those in and with Christ are/will be. And going back to Luke 23 above, that Jesus says nothing to the thief crucified on His left should not be interpreted to mean unbelievers will cease to exist but rather be... somewhere else... other than with the Lord in paradise.
So again, my answers in order:
1.) To the same place as NT people of God, and regarding those not regenerate of the Spirit, to the same place as the OT people not among the people of God.
2.) God made us with physical bodies, and we will be that way again, upon the resurrection, reunited with our physical bodies. What happens then depends on whether the person is on Jesus's right or left at the judgment.
3.) We will be with Christ that very day in paradise. There will be no time lapse between our physical death and being conscious and very aware of our presence with the Lord.
2.) God made us with physical bodies, and we will be that way again, upon the resurrection, reunited with our physical bodies. What happens then depends on whether the person is on Jesus's right or left at the judgment.
3.) We will be with Christ that very day in paradise. There will be no time lapse between our physical death and being conscious and very aware of our presence with the Lord.
Grace and peace to all!
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Where do you get this idea? I like it. Just not sure I can find it in Scripture, especially with God creating Adam and there being a 2nd death. Seems as temporal as can be.
Well, again, I would say that it is part of the whole idea of being created/made in the image of God, which Genesis 1 is very clear on. While the first death is physical and takes place in the temporal realm, the second death (not experienced by those in Christ) is not physical but spiritual and is an eternal state of being.
Grace and peace to you.
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BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
I would say that Genesis 1 is not at all clear that "made in God's image" means "eternal" in any way, shape, or form. One of the very first things that God instructed Adam and Eve on was that disobedience would bring about death. Being eternal also means having no beginning, which is obviously not a part of man's makeup.
Welcome to the forum. :)
On the contrary, the very fact that the Tree of Life was within the Garden of Eden confirms that God planned to give human beings eternal life. And now He gives it freely as a gift to those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Rom 6:23).
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Being inherently eternal (timeless) in and of Oneself (no gift needed) and being sustained in linear time by an outside force for eternity future (the gift) are two different things. Are you actually suggesting that mankind is inherently eternal?
It doesn't spell it out, no. Our being created in God's image means a lot of things, concerning a lot of things, like what God made us to be, why He did it, and what He put us here to do. In Genesis 1:27, Moses tells us that man is created in Their image, in Their likeness. That one sentence tells us a lot -- we are in God's image, His likeness. That tells us far more than that we look like Him. Actually, we don't woodenly "look like" the Father, because He is Spirit, as John 4:24 says. But as far as what God made us to be and why He did it and what we are here to do, Genesis 1:28 tell us that, and it's fleshed out in the rest of the Bible. And of course in Jesus, we have the perfect Model. Surely we cannot achieve it perfectly (or even close to perfectly) in this life -- that's why we need and have a Savior -- but it is what it is.
Ah! Love that you said this. Yes, in Genesis 2:17, death in this life; God told them that they would die that very day, and they did; even though they were still alive in the temporal sense, because they were banished from Eden (and became dead in sin) when they did partake of the fruit in Genesis 3 (after Satan deceived Eve). So they brought sin and death into the world; this is man's natural state, the human condition from birth. And God spells this out in Genesis 3, saying that Adam's and Eve's (and thus our) temporal lives would come to an end, that they (and we) would suffer death from this life. But this curse in Genesis 3 is also a blessing and a promise from God in that they would (we will) not have to endure the effects of the Fall forever, but only for a short time (during our lives here on earth). And of course there's the first mention of the Gospel and the promise of a Savior and everlasting life in Him -- and with Him -- in Genesis 3:15... which leads to my final point:
I agree that having no beginning -- of eternity past, as God is; only He is from everlasting to everlasting -- is not part of man's makeup. But we will all exist -- in one place or the other :) -- in eternity future; it is in that sense that God created us eternal. Yes, we are God's created, and not Creator as God is... not self-existing, as He is. In Bible texts treating eternal destinies, 'eternal' refers to the age to come. And the age to come lasts as long as the life of the eternal God Himself. Because He is eternal -- He "lives forever and ever" (Revelation 4:9-10; Revelation 10:6; Revelation 15:7 -- so is the age to come. And Jesus plainly sets this forth in His message on the sheep and goats: "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (Matthew 25:46). The punishment of the lost in hell is coextensive to the bliss of the righteous in heaven -- both are everlasting.
So... I'm not sure if you subscribe to annihilationism or not, but annihilationism is absolutely not Biblical.
Thank you. But I'm surely not a message board "newbie." :)
Grace and peace to you.
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Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Seems Enoch's post explains Genesis take on us being eternal is inconsistent with the rest of Genesis.
Well said Enoch!
Well that's just Enoch's take on Genesis, isn't it? I would agree with Enoch, actually, that prior to the Fall, Adam and Eve -- and thus all of their progeny -- were not subject to death from this life. And even after the Fall, there is the promise of restoring it, for those who repent and believe. Again, we are not eternal with regard to the past, i.e. self-existing, as God is. But with regard to eternity future, we will all exist... in one of two states/places (as is clear in places like Matthew 25, Luke 16, and Revelation 20.
Grace and peace to you.
Yes. All human souls and spirits are imperishable, therefore eternal. As a result, those who believe on Christ receive the gift of eternal life -- everlasting life (John 3:16). Those who do not, are eternally damned (Mk 16:16). And that is why the Gospel must be preached in all the world and to every creature.
Did not Christ Himself come down from Heaven and took on flesh? Why is it so hard to see that we did also. Your quote from Job is accurate ,however you missing the bigger picture .
That which Job describes is ALL of us . We were on this earth(in our spiritual bodies) before He(God) destroyed it the first time ,When satan then know as lucifer attempted the overthrow 1/3 of the children followed him ,at that time God could had destroyed all of them ,but in His mercy came up with a plan, which is this flesh age
Do you actually think you were created at birth ?
Believe whatever you wish. The Second Death is eternal separation from God. The body, soul, and spirit remain alive but suffer. See all the pronouncements of Christ and the biblical meaning of death.
All souls return to God. Where is He ? He gave you the facts with the rich man, why is it you don't believe it ?
When someone makes God a liar, then that means there is no hope for that person. All the saved who have passed on are indeed in Heaven (Hebrews 12). And those who will be alive at the Rapture will also go to Heaven.
So only Satan can be behind any assertion that there are no souls in Heaven. He wants them all in Hell.
What's the meaning of destroyed ?
Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
This is important that you understand that there is only one person that can kill both your body and the soul, and that person is the Almighty God Himself. He created both your body and your soul, and just as He created both, He also can destroy both body and soul. This also documents just where it is that the wicked souls will be destroyed.
Where does death of the soul is separation from God in all of scripture ?
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