The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
I’m sorry, but I can’t find anything in Hebrews 9 where it speaks about what you say, that is, “the Father promises to accept the offering provided that Jesus' followers have the proper inwardness -- contrition, penitence, honesty, faith, hope, love and etc.”

Perhaps you can cite other scriptures, if any, where the Father made such promise and with those conditions.

What do you want? You want me to cite a passage where the Father says this explicitly? I don't think you are going to find a passage like this. We assemble the picture from the words of Jesus and his apostles. With regard to salvation being offered to those with honesty and contrition etc. Review Paul's argument in Romans 4, especially his take on Psalms 32.

Review and meditate on the passages found in the New Testament that speak about the reason why God raised Jesus from the dead.

Think about it for a minute. If the purpose of Jesus' death on the cross was to procure our release from sin and to become the basis for receiving eternal life, then his DEATH served that purpose. Why bring Jesus back to life? Some people who grow up in the church learn about the fact that Jesus died for their sins. But many of them treat the death of Jesus as a "fate accompi" not giving much attention to it. Now that Jesus dealt with our sins and brought us forgiveness, now we can figure out how to make our marriages better, how to have better kids, and how to improve our economic situation. Those with this attitude (not speaking about you of course) never give the cross another thought. Jesus has done everything he needed to do. Now we can get on with living the abundant life.

Might his resurrection serve another purpose? I can think of a couple. For one, according to Paul, God raised Jesus from the dead in order to authenticate Jesus as the one who would save his people from their sins. The promise of salvation through a son of God was predicted in the Hebrew scriptures, and it was the resurrection of Jesus from the dead that identified HIM to be the fulfillment of that promise Romans 1:1-6

Did Jesus save them from their sins at the cross? Yes and no. Yes, in that the death of Jesus on the cross dealt with the enmity between god and man, but no, in that the cross does not save us from the inevitable consequence of sin, i.e. death. The deliverance of the saints from the sting of sin, which is death, takes place later, the moment Jesus shouts, "come forth" and those in Christ rise from the dead to live forever with the Lord. We know this from the accounts in John's gospel where Jesus reveals to both Martha and Mary that he has been granted the authority to raise people from the dead, and he proves his case by example. And if we read through the Gospel of John carefully, we come to learn that the Father has granted his son Jesus the authority over who will enter into his kingdom and who will be left behind. John 5:21 for instance.

On what basis does Jesus then grant eternal life? Paul says we are justified by faith, but what is the content of that faith? Well, among other things, those who die in the Lord, are trusting that Jesus will call them out of the grave when the time comes. And if you think about it, trusting in a promised inheritance, which will be given to you after you die, takes a lot of faith and trust. This is the faith of Abraham, that our hope lies far beyond our own life expectancy. The Spirit intercedes for us now, Romans 8:26-27, but when the time comes, Jesus will intercede for us according to the power of an indestructible life. Hebrews 7:6 God raised Jesus from the dead so that he might save forever those who draw near to God, since he always lives to make intercession for them. Hebrews 7:25

For the most part, those who wish to reconcile with each other often times need an intercessor, and in this case, Jesus is our intercessor, who went before God himself and makes an appeal on our behalf.

I don't know what else to say at this point. :)

<<<You want me to cite a passage where the Father says this explicitly?>>>

Of course not. What I am saying is that Hebrews 9 nowhere effectively say that “the Father promises to accept the offering provided that Jesus' followers have the proper inwardness -- contrition, penitence, honesty, faith, hope, love and etc.”

<<<With regard to salvation being offered to those with honesty and contrition etc. Review Paul's argument in Romans 4, especially his take on Psalms 32.>>>

Romans 4 nor the part of Psalms 32 impress anything about salvation being an offer or is offered.

<<<Review and meditate on the passages found in the New Testament that speak about the reason why God raised Jesus from the dead.>>>

Among such passages, here’s one:

Romans 4:25 who was delivered up because of [dia] our offenses, and was raised because of [dia] our justification.

dia: through, on account of, because of

It was on account of our justification. May I ask, what can you say about that? How is Jesus’ resurrection from the dead said to be on account of our justification?

At this point, I still do not see any reference scriptures in your post that effectively supports the position that ““the Father promises to accept the offering provided that Jesus' followers have the proper inwardness -- contrition, penitence, honesty, faith, hope, love and etc.” And it is because there’s none, at least in mu reading. That is why I am asking.

Anyway, moving on, let me comment on some points in the rest of your post.

<<<no, in that the cross does not save us from the inevitable consequence of sin, i.e. death.>>>

The cross sure does not save us from death, if the death you refer to is that state of the body without the spirit, or the world’s definition of it. But that is not what death is, at least as I understand it that is spoken in scriptures in relation to sin.

Tong
R4354

 

[Tong2020]

Why do you think that ?

Comment: I don’t think this is the case that “sin was justified by the blood Christ”.

Why do I think that?

Sin could never be righteous, nor could it be justified or declared righteous.

Tong
R4355

 

[CadyandZoe]

My question is HOW Jesus is “the propitiation for our sins”.

I am sorry, I just could not seem to find the answer as to the HOW.

Well, I'm not sure what you are asking exactly. I've been telling you that propitiation is not a matter of justice in order to disabuse you of the common understanding of the atonement, which I will illustrate this way. The boys are out front playing baseball in the street and someone hits a baseball through the window. Dad rushes out saying, "which one of you hit the ball into my window?" The boys sheepishly point to the boy holding the bat. Dad asks the boy, "how are you going to pay for this window?" The answer is obvious. The boy is too young to have a job. So his parents will be required to pay for the window. A stranger passing by says, "I will pay for the window and he pulls out a money roll bigger than his fist, peels off five hundred bucks and hands it to Dad. "Is this enough?"

This is how many people view the cross. We owe God a debt so large that we can't pay it. But thank God, Jesus came along and paid the debt for us. Not only did he pay the debt for our sins, he paid the debt for everyone's sins. And how can he pay so much moral debt? He is actually God, and an infinite God can pay an infinite debt. Salvation is by grace, not because God forgave the debt, Jesus paid the debt, but the act of grace was Jesus paying the debt.

But the Bible doesn't actually teach vicarious atonement. The narrative above doesn't accurately describe the act of propitiation. I think I told the story, earlier, about the little girl who tipped over and broke an expensive vase while playing in the house. And her father became very angry. After awhile the daughter brings her father some flowers from the garden and this act was enough to melt her father's heart and restored the relationship. The girl didn't replace the broken vase. She wasn't punished for breaking the vase. Rather her disobedience and the subsequent effect upset her father to the point of anger. And the question is, what would the father accept from his daughter so that he might act friendly to her again?

Propitiation is the act or thing that answers to the question, "what will it take to get the god to bless me and grant me his favor." New Testament propitiation is significant within the context of reconciliation. Accordingly, NT propitiation answers to the question, "what will it take to repair our relationship with God and bring peace with God?" The answer comes back, "I require that Jesus Christ, my son, be unjustly put to death on a cross, which will allow me to both demonstrate my righteousness but also justify those who were unjust toward me." Therefore, Jesus volunteered to unjustly suffer the death penalty, even while he was obedient unto death. And the Father raised him from the dead. This death and subsequent resurrection allowed the Father to demonstrate his righteousness.

Since Jesus did this for his Father, the Father gave his son the authority to choose or determine who would be saved. This is how Jesus acted as the propitiatory offering. He volunteered to allow the Father to use him to demonstrate his righteousness, and for that, he gave Jesus to be head over all creation and to save those whomever he chooses.

 

[MatthewG]

Thankfully to be seen right with God is by faith in Him, and His Son.


Don’t let the sin of unbelief creep into your mind.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
My question is HOW Jesus is “the propitiation for our sins”.

I am sorry, I just could not seem to find the answer as to the HOW.

Well, I'm not sure what you are asking exactly. I've been telling you that propitiation is not a matter of justice in order to disabuse you of the common understanding of the atonement, which I will illustrate this way. The boys are out front playing baseball in the street and someone hits a baseball through the window. Dad rushes out saying, "which one of you hit the ball into my window?" The boys sheepishly point to the boy holding the bat. Dad asks the boy, "how are you going to pay for this window?" The answer is obvious. The boy is too young to have a job. So his parents will be required to pay for the window. A stranger passing by says, "I will pay for the window and he pulls out a money roll bigger than his fist, peels off five hundred bucks and hands it to Dad. "Is this enough?"

This is how many people view the cross. We owe God a debt so large that we can't pay it. But thank God, Jesus came along and paid the debt for us. Not only did he pay the debt for our sins, he paid the debt for everyone's sins. And how can he pay so much moral debt? He is actually God, and an infinite God can pay an infinite debt. Salvation is by grace, not because God forgave the debt, Jesus paid the debt, but the act of grace was Jesus paying the debt.

But the Bible doesn't actually teach vicarious atonement. The narrative above doesn't accurately describe the act of propitiation. I think I told the story, earlier, about the little girl who tipped over and broke an expensive vase while playing in the house. And her father became very angry. After awhile the daughter brings her father some flowers from the garden and this act was enough to melt her father's heart and restored the relationship. The girl didn't replace the broken vase. She wasn't punished for breaking the vase. Rather her disobedience and the subsequent effect upset her father to the point of anger. And the question is, what would the father accept from his daughter so that he might act friendly to her again?

Propitiation is the act or thing that answers to the question, "what will it take to get the god to bless me and grant me his favor." New Testament propitiation is significant within the context of reconciliation. Accordingly, NT propitiation answers to the question, "what will it take to repair our relationship with God and bring peace with God?" The answer comes back, "I require that Jesus Christ, my son, be unjustly put to death on a cross, which will allow me to both demonstrate my righteousness but also justify those who were unjust toward me." Therefore, Jesus volunteered to unjustly suffer the death penalty, even while he was obedient unto death. And the Father raised him from the dead. This death and subsequent resurrection allowed the Father to demonstrate his righteousness.

Since Jesus did this for his Father, the Father gave his son the authority to choose or determine who would be saved. This is how Jesus acted as the propitiatory offering. He volunteered to allow the Father to use him to demonstrate his righteousness, and for that, he gave Jesus to be head over all creation and to save those whomever he chooses.

As I pointed out, there is much that Christ accomplished by His death. And propitiation or appeasement is only one of that, which was for the whole world. So, we should not have any issue on that one, except perhaps our understanding of it. And we do agree that propitiation is not justification.

Now, another purpose of Why Christ Jesus gave His life, is as ransom for many. This is different from being a propitiation, which also is different from justification. The ransom payment is His His precious blood. It is payment, which generally, is to set free from various things. Scriptures tells us about such things as bondage to sin, curse of the law, death, lawless deeds.

Both things considered, Christ’s death benefits mankind as a whole. However, it can’t be denied that, from among mankind, God had chosen people to be His people, whom apostle John said, the Father had given to the Son to raise up at the last day. These are they whom on the other hand apostle Paul said God had foreknew, predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, whom He called, whom He justified; and whom He justified, and also glorified.

So, Christ’s death benefits all men, but specially the chosen people, who believe in God and Him whom He sent, the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Tong
R4356

 

[brightfame52]

He is the Saviour of the Body ! 2

Now the fact is this, there is no such thing in God's Purpose of Christ, wherein He is not the Head of A Body, whenever there has been a Christ, there has been in Union with Him His Body, the Church, the possibility of a Christ without a Body does not exist, for He was before all things in that Capacity as Head Col 1:15-19

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Therefore because the Head was raised from the dead by God's Mighty Power, this same Mighty Power is exerted in His Body, for the Body has a residual effect and must participate in the Power that raised up its Head ! As by this Power, the Head of the Body overcame the World, Sin, the Devil and Death, and so it is incumbent upon every member of His Body to overcome the World, Sin the devil and death as evidence of the Victory of their Head, as well as every Memebr of the Body must be caused to believe according to the working of that same Mighty Power Eph 1:19-20

19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

Thats how and why they believe, to evidence the Mighty Power that raised up their Head from the dead after He had been delivered to death on behalf of their sins, and consequently He is the Saviour of the Body !

 

[Tong2020]

@CadyandZoe @brightfame52 @MatthewG and to anyone who wants to share their thoughts.

With regards the topic, may I know your thoughts on this:

Did Jesus die for Abel?
Did Jesus die for Enoch?
Did Jesus die for Noah?
Did Jesus die for Abraham?
Did Jesus die for Isaac?
Did Jesus die for Jacob?
Did Jesus die for Moses?

Tong
R4359

 

[MatthewG]

Don’t know, what do you think @tong?

 

[brightfame52]

He died for them that shall believe on Him !

Another way of determining exactly for whom Christ died, is understanding whom it was He prayed for ! If we remember, He frankly states that He does not pray for the world at large Jn 17:9

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

And later He states thise Jn 17:20

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Thats because those that shall believe on Him through their word, would be His Sheep that He died for Jn 10:15-16

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Remember in Jn 17:9 He mentions those given Him !

Well the same is said of His Sheep Jn 10:27-29

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

The word gave here is the same word given in Jn 17:9 the greek word didōmi :


I.to give


II.to give something to someone

A.of one's own accord to give one something, to his advantage

i.to bestow a gift



B.to grant, give to one asking, let have


C.to supply, furnish, necessary things


D.to give over, deliver

i.to reach out, extend, present


ii.of a writing


iii.to give over to one's care, intrust, commit

and those who never believe on Him, they were not His Sheep given Him Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

As such He never died for them, nor did He ever pray/intercede for them Jn 17:9

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

Christ died for only Believers !

 

[brightfame52]

@CadyandZoe @brightfame52 @MatthewG and to anyone who wants to share their thoughts.

With regards the topic, may I know your thoughts on this:

Did Jesus die for Abel?
Did Jesus die for Enoch?
Did Jesus die for Noah?
Did Jesus die for Abraham?
Did Jesus die for Isaac?
Did Jesus die for Jacob?
Did Jesus die for Moses?

Tong
R4359

The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

 

[Tong2020]

The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

I was just asking very simple, easy, specific, and direct questions, which could easily be answered by a simple yes or no.

Did Jesus die for Abel?
Did Jesus die for Enoch?
Did Jesus die for Noah?
Did Jesus die for Abraham?
Did Jesus die for Isaac?
Did Jesus die for Jacob?
Did Jesus die for Moses?

Thanks.

Tong
R4363

 

[Tong2020]

Don’t know, what do you think @tong?

Thank you for your thoughts.

Tong
R4364

 

[Curtis]

Another popular Myth in the religious world today, is the Jesus Christ died or gave His Life for everyone in the world without exception, but the problem with that, is there is not one shred of scripture evidence that states that.

The scripture however does say that He died for His Sheep or His Church as per Jn 10:11,15

11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Eph 5:25

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

His People Isa 53:8

8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. cp Matt 1:21

Now, are all without exception His Sheep ? No

Are all without exception His Church ? No

Are all without exception His People ? No

For surely the seed of the serpent Gen 3:15 cannot be of His Sheep, His Church, or His People.

So why does the religous world proclaim that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception, when they have no scripture proof ? Because it is a Myth.

1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for OUR sins: and NOT for ours ONLY, but ALSO for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD.

 

[Tong2020]

1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for OUR sins: and NOT for ours ONLY, but ALSO for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD.

Yes. However, it cannot be denied in scriptures that the whole world is not saved unto eternal life, but only somez

So, may I know, what is your take on “propitiation”? What is propitiation for you?

Tong
R4366

 

[MatthewG]

Thank you for your thoughts.

Tong
R4364

I also would like to know your thoughts please

 

[Tong2020]

I also would like to know your thoughts please

My answer is yes to all.

Tong
R4367

 

[CadyandZoe]

Of course not. What I am saying is that Hebrews 9 nowhere effectively say that “the Father promises to accept the offering provided that Jesus' followers have the proper inwardness -- contrition, penitence, honesty, faith, hope, love and etc.”

Hebrews 9:14 states that the blood of Christ, offered to God without blemish, cleanses the conscience from dead works to serve the living God. I simply answer the question, what does a cleansed conscience look like? In verse 15, Paul argues that the death of Christ on the cross, redeemed those who were slaves of sin so that those who have been called might receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. What are the most salient features of those whom God called, if not repentance, contrition, confession, and honesty?

Romans 4 nor the part of Psalms 32 impress anything about salvation being an offer or is offered.

I'm not suggesting that salvation itself is an offer. I am arguing from the Biblical premise that the cross was/is a means of reconciliation and a propitiatory offering. The cross is being compared to those two things and we are invited to find a correspondence or a partial similarity between them. How is the cross like a propitiatory offering? How is the cross like the terms that make for peace? And why does the New Testament say that God, through the cross, was making peace with the entire world?

What is the cross if not Jesus' offering the Father something that will please the Father and make salvation possible? God is not going to listen to our appeals for peace, but he will listen to his son. But salvation isn't possible for those who are unwilling to make peace with God. Therefore, the tell-tail markers of our wish to make peace are contrition, confession, repentance, and especially an honest and good heart.

And, I am also taking into account what Jesus himself had to say about the cross, especially with reference to Numbers 21:8 where we read that Moses lifted a fiery serpent onto a standard. What are the points of correspondence between the standard and the cross Jesus wishes us to understand, if not the fact that in each case, the person wishing to be healed, or forgiven, must come before the standard or cross to look at it. In other words, the terms of peace not only require Jesus' death on a cross, but also require the penitent to bow to the significance of the cross. And what does it look like to face the implication of the cross if not contrition, repentance, etc?

Romans 4:25 who was delivered up because of [dia] our offenses, and was raised because of [dia] our justification.

dia: through, on account of, because of

It was on account of our justification. May I ask, what can you say about that? How is Jesus’ resurrection from the dead said to be on account of our justification?

I agree with the NET Bible commentators who suggest that the second "dia" is prospective rather than retrospective. That is, his resurrection justifies our trust in his finished work.

Anyway, moving on, let me comment on some points in the rest of your post.

<<<no, in that the cross does not save us from the inevitable consequence of sin, i.e. death.>>>

The cross sure does not save us from death, if the death you refer to is that state of the body without the spirit, or the world’s definition of it. But that is not what death is, at least as I understand it that is spoken in scriptures in relation to sin.

I understand. You and I are attempting to communicate complex ideas in a short a post as possible. In my video, "Understanding the Gospel: understanding the bad news." I explain, "There are three fundamental aspects of the bad news: 1. This life offers so much but delivers so little; 2. Death robs life of meaning and significance; and 3. All human beings must face the righteous judgment of God who will render to each person according to his deeds." In a certain context, the term "death" has been employed to speak about each of those three ideas.

 

[CadyandZoe]

@CadyandZoe @brightfame52 @MatthewG and to anyone who wants to share their thoughts.

With regards the topic, may I know your thoughts on this:

Did Jesus die for Abel?
Did Jesus die for Enoch?
Did Jesus die for Noah?
Did Jesus die for Abraham?
Did Jesus die for Isaac?
Did Jesus die for Jacob?
Did Jesus die for Moses?

Tong
R4359

Of course. This may be controversial for some, but Paul argues in his letter to the Ephesians that God was managing all of history so as to bring all believers throughout time under Christ.

 

[amadeus]

@CadyandZoe @brightfame52 @MatthewG and to anyone who wants to share their thoughts.

With regards the topic, may I know your thoughts on this:

Did Jesus die for Abel?
Did Jesus die for Enoch?
Did Jesus die for Noah?
Did Jesus die for Abraham?
Did Jesus die for Isaac?
Did Jesus die for Jacob?
Did Jesus die for Moses?

Tong
R4359

Is God limited by time as a man of flesh? As we see it with our natural perceptions these men lived and died before Jesus was born in Bethlehem. For whom was/is Jesus the Messiah?

Is God a respecter of persons?

 

[Tong2020]

Of course. This may be controversial for some, but Paul argues in his letter to the Ephesians that God was managing all of history so as to bring all believers throughout time under Christ.

Thank you for your thoughts there.

The next question would then be, what does it profit them, that is, Jesus’ dying for these dead men?

Tong
R4369