Will The New Heaven And Earth Have The Lake Of Fire Present?

[Truth7t7]

I used to argue that existence in Hell is much like being in a state of perpetual death without actually dying, and I still hold to that. But the question remains, will they exist in that state "forever" in the way you and I understand the term today...

I'm tempted to think that answer may be no, though I am not prepared to stand on it dogmatically yet.

It will be the lake of fire in conscious eternal torment, just as scripture teaches below

Revelation 14:9-11KJB
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

 

[Enoch111]

15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

You forgot to include Revelation 21:8. And Jesus said that Hell is in "outer darkness".

 

[Truth7t7]

You forgot to include Revelation 21:8. And Jesus said that Hell is in "outer darkness".

Your claim is false, no place does Revelation 21:8 below mention "outer darkness"

Revelation 21:8KJV
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

[Truth7t7]

I can’t make it fit. I do not think humans are born with eternal life in them. I think the only way to eternal life for humans is being born again from above with the Holy Spirit.
And if you read carefully, it is the smoke from their torment that burns forever. It doesn’t necessarily mean their torment is forever. In fact, it says that for humans it’s the second death, not eternal life.

Your statement is softly promoting the Jehovah's Witness false doctrine of "Annihilation" where humans cease to exist after death, as you suggest wicked humans/souls that have lived aren't eternal, but scripture below teaches otherwise

Wikipedia: Annihilationism is directly related to the doctrine of Christian conditionalism, the idea that a human soul is not immortal unless it is given eternal life. Annihilationism asserts that God will eventually destroy the wicked, leaving only the righteous to live on in immortality.

Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that there can be no punishment after death because the dead cease to exist.

The Wicked Will Suffer Conscious Eternal Torment After Death As Seen Below, Annihilationism Is A False Teaching

Revelation 14:9-11KJV
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Your statement is softly promoting the Jehovah's Witness false doctrine of "Annihilation" where humans cease to exist after death, as you suggest wicked humans/souls that have lived aren't eternal, but scripture teaches otherwise

Scripture below clearly teaches that those "Humans" who receive the mark or worship the image, they will be tormented eternally

Revelation 14:9-11KJV
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

I disagree. I do not think humans have eternal life in them when they are physically born. I believe the only way to have eternal life is to be born again from above.
And it says the SMOKE of their torment rises up forever. It does not say they are tormented forever.

 

[Truth7t7]

I disagree. I do not think humans have eternal life in them when they are physically born. I believe the only way to have eternal life is to be born again from above.
And it says the SMOKE of their torment rises up forever. It does not say they are tormented forever.

Your entire postings have been in denial of conscious eternal torment, as you go so far as to teach its the "Smoke" that rises eternally, and they aren't tormented "Really"

"He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone"

"They have no rest day or night"

What's that mean?

Revelation 14:9-11KJV
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Your entire postings have been in denial of conscious eternal torment, as you go so far as to teach its the "Smoke" that rises eternally, and they aren't tormented "Really"

"He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone"

"They have no rest day or night"

What's that mean?

Revelation 14:9-11KJV
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Have no rest day or night for how long? Day and night do cease to exist at some point and it’s always day then with no need of the sun because God will be the light. And what does it mean that it will be more tolerable for sodom in the judgement than for some others?
If they are tormented forever and everyone else is tormented forever, how does God say it will be more tolerable for some?
And if all men live forever, why do they need to be born again to gain eternal life if they already have eternal life in them?

 

[Truth7t7]

Have no rest day or night for how long? Day and night do cease to exist at some point and it’s always day then with no need of the sun because God will be the light. And what does it mean that it will be more tolerable for sodom in the judgement than for some others?
If they are tormented forever and everyone else is tormented forever, how does God say it will be more tolerable for some?
And if all men live forever, why do they need to be born again to gain eternal life if they already have eternal life in them?

You didnt answer the first question

"He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone"

What's that mean?

Revelation 14:9-11KJV
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

 

[Truth7t7]

Have no rest day or night for how long? Day and night do cease to exist at some point and it’s always day then with no need of the sun because God will be the light. And what does it mean that it will be more tolerable for sodom in the judgement than for some others?
If they are tormented forever and everyone else is tormented forever, how does God say it will be more tolerable for some?
And if all men live forever, why do they need to be born again to gain eternal life if they already have eternal life in them?

Where in scripture does it state the "New Earth" won't have need for the sun?

There will be a "New Earth" and "New Jersualem" on this "New Earth"

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Where in scripture does it state the "New Earth" won't have need for the sun?

There will be a "New Earth" and "New Jersualem" on this "New Earth"

Wait…I thought I was the one accused of never reading certain scriptures.

And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

And somewhere it also says there will be no ocean there either. I remember thinking, oh, but it’s so beautiful to look at! But then I thought, surely it will be replaced by things even more beautiful!

 

[GRACE ambassador]

it says that for humans it’s the second death, not eternal life.

Is this assuming "second death" = NON existence/annihilation? I understand
"arson fire" does NOT annihilate anything into NON existence, but DOES
"change the structure," leaving ashes behind... Also, see below:

will they exist in that state "forever" in the way you and I understand the term today...I'm tempted to think that answer may be no, though I am not prepared to stand on it dogmatically yet.

Good idea to not be dogmatic yet, as JESUS Makes It Plain and Clear About
the spiritual realm - it Has:

"continued Existence" of the soul, with abilities of "feeling, sight, thirst, memory, and
verbalization," even though dead, "was existing IN THE FLAMES." (Luke 16:23-31)

How Exactly is this annihilation?

Of course, IF this THIS is an "UNtrue parable [really meaning something else],"
as some believe, Did JESUS Then "LIE" to us? I thought HE Spoke ALL of HIS
"Words Of Truth" For Sound Doctrine, NOT for "sophistry, trickery, and deceit"???

the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched

Correct! JESUS Himself Confirmed This Truth [existence in everlasting fire?],
In Triplicate (Mark 9:44-48), Did HE not?

Also, why is it confirmed that "Shall NEVER perish" = ETERNAL Life, But:

"Shall NEVER be quenched" = Only Temporary age/time, instead of ETERNAL?
+
Why ALL Of HIS (JESUS') Severe Warnings, Such As:

Mat_10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul:
but rather Fear HIM Which Is Able To Destroy Both soul and body in hell."
(cp Luke 12:5)

Does this indicate avoiding annihilation? OR: Fearing: "Everlasting torment!"?

Revelation 14:9-11KJB

+

include Revelation 21:8.

And, then there are these:

2Th_1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from
The Presence of the Lord, and from The Glory Of His Power;

Heb_10:29 Of How Much Sorer Punishment, suppose ye, shall he be
thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot The SON Of God, and
hath counted The BLOOD of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified,
an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of Grace?

Conclusion: Everlasting fire will "continue for what purpose," IF annihilation
is true?
+
IF annihilation is true, there is not much incentive for the lost to come to
The Salvation Of God, Correct? However:

IF "Everlasting torment for UNbelievers" Is True, Then There Is
EVERY Incentive to do so, Correct?
+
"...God is NOT Willing that ANY should PERISH!..." (2 Peter 3:9)

TODAY IS "The Day Of Salvation!": God's Simple Will! Amen?

 

[ewq1938]

The lake of fire is not on the Earth:

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Earth and heaven fleeing away means this is a place away from both Heaven and Earth.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Good idea to not be dogmatic yet, as JESUS Makes It Plain and Clear About
the spiritual realm - it Has:

"continued Existence" of the soul, with abilities of "feeling, sight, thirst, memory, and
verbalization," even though dead, "was existing IN THE FLAMES." (Luke 16:23-31)

How Exactly is this annihilation?

Well, it wouldn’t be annihilation yet. It would be annihilation if and when he was thrown into the lake of fire.
And I don’t think Jesus was telling a literal story there. I believe it was a parable.

 

[ewq1938]

Well, it wouldn’t be annihilation yet.

He is confusing Hades with the lake of fire. Two different places.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Of course, IF this THIS is an "UNtrue parable [really meaning something else],"
as some believe, Did JESUS Then "LIE" to us? I thought HE Spoke ALL of HIS
"Words Of Truth" For Sound Doctrine, NOT for "sophistry, trickery, and deceit"???

Ah, cmon. A parable is an illustrative tale that conveys spiritual truths. It’s silly to ask if Jesus lied. I mean, do you think the parable about the talents actually means God is going to require cash from us…?? And if not, did He LIE to us? Psh!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Mat_10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul:
but rather Fear HIM Which Is Able To Destroy Both soul and body in hell."

Does this indicate avoiding annihilation? OR: Fearing: "Everlasting torment!"?

Ah here we go again. Second death does not mean death at all. It means to live eternally. And destroy body and soul does not mean destroy, it means eternal life.

 

[Truth7t7]

And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

And somewhere it also says there will be no ocean there either. I remember thinking, oh, but it’s so beautiful to look at! But then I thought, surely it will be replaced by things even more beautiful!

Your claim is talking about the (City) "New Jerusalem" where Gods throne will be, not the "New Earth" where there will be the new moons

Revelation 21:23KJV
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Um…is the new city of Jerusalem on the new earth?

you got me there…where is the verse that talks about the new moons on the new earth?

oh wait, sorry I forgot, you don’t think there’s a thousand year reign on this earth.

 

[Truth7t7]

Is this assuming "second death" = NON existence/annihilation? I understand
"arson fire" does NOT annihilate anything into NON existence, but DOES
"change the structure," leaving ashes behind... Also, see below:

Good idea to not be dogmatic yet, as JESUS Makes It Plain and Clear About
the spiritual realm - it Has:

"continued Existence" of the soul, with abilities of "feeling, sight, thirst, memory, and
verbalization," even though dead, "was existing IN THE FLAMES." (Luke 16:23-31)

How Exactly is this annihilation?

Of course, IF this THIS is an "UNtrue parable [really meaning something else],"
as some believe, Did JESUS Then "LIE" to us? I thought HE Spoke ALL of HIS
"Words Of Truth" For Sound Doctrine, NOT for "sophistry, trickery, and deceit"???


Correct! JESUS Himself Confirmed This Truth [existence in everlasting fire?],
In Triplicate (Mark 9:44-48), Did HE not?

Also, why is it confirmed that "Shall NEVER perish" = ETERNAL Life, But:

"Shall NEVER be quenched" = Only Temporary age/time, instead of ETERNAL?
+
Why ALL Of HIS (JESUS') Severe Warnings, Such As:

Mat_10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul:
but rather Fear HIM Which Is Able To Destroy Both soul and body in hell."

Does this indicate avoiding annihilation? OR: Fearing: "Everlasting torment!"?

+


And, then there are these:

2Th_1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from
The Presence of the Lord, and from The Glory Of His Power;

Heb_10:29 Of How Much Sorer Punishment, suppose ye, shall he be
thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot The SON Of God, and
hath counted The BLOOD of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified,
an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of Grace?

Conclusion: Everlasting fire will "continue for what purpose," IF annihilation
is true?
+
IF annihilation is true, there is not much incentive for the lost to come to
The Salvation Of God, Correct? However:

IF "Everlasting torment for UNbelievers" Is True, Then There Is
EVERY Incentive to do so, Correct?
+
"...God is NOT Willing that ANY should PERISH!..." (2 Peter 3:9)

TODAY IS "The Day Of Salvation!": God's Simple Will! Amen?

Yes this is the Jehovah's Witness doctrine of Annihilation, that denies eternal torment of the dead, and the scripture you have provided

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I had no idea they believed the lake of fire was annihilation for mortals. Interesting.