Why was "the Tree" placed in the center of the garden (orchard)

[face2face]

Only true followers saw. And the clouds obscured their view. verse 9

In like manner he will return. Your doctrine of Christ remaining in Heaven isn't Scripturally based, another one Keiw! David's throne is on earth.

F2F

 

[face2face]

@TheHC

When you have no substance at times, all you can do is laugh...the opposite is to learn...

I get it

 

[Aunty Jane]

Which adopted doctrines would that be?
Could you list them please?

As you wish……

Catholic doctrine, which finds no scriptural support at all…and kept people in ignorance for some 1500 years…..is as follows….

1) The nature of God…..presenting the Almighty as three separate beings who can talk to one another, pray to one another, have a different will to the others, and who can be in three places at once.
He can be his own servant (Acts 4:27) His own apostle and High Priest, (Heb 3:1) as well as his own mediator. (1 Tim 2:5-6)

The Jews did not know such a God and neither did the first Christian….who were all Jewish.

2) The position of Mary in relation to Jesus….Mary is never said to be “the mother of God”, because as an uncreated being, God cannot have a mother. She was not immaculately conceived, nor was she taken to heaven bodily. She was as sinful as any other person born from Adam.

3) There is no immortal soul ever mentioned in the Bible. “Souls” are living, breathing creatures who depend on external means to continue living. All “souls, both animals and humans, depend on oxygen, food and water, which was supplied in abundance by the Creator, along with the “tree of life” which guaranteed that mortal human life could continue indefinitely, as long as they remained obedient. Once sin entered into their lives, the means to grant them unending life (the tree of life) was denied. (Gen 3:22-24)

4) The instrument used to put Christ to death is not called a cross in the Greek Scriptures…it is called a “stauros” which means an upright stake…it doesn’t not mean a cross piece of timber at any angle.…beside which fact, we are told not to make religious images of “anything”. (Ex 20:4-5)

It is a bizarre thing indeed to make an image of the instrument used to put someone you live to death…and venerate it…..yet that is what we see….on church buildings, as jewelry worn around the neck, or on prayer beads.…something else that was missing in the first century…..repetitious prayers.

The Catholic church took idolatry even further and made statues of their objects of veneration, bowing down to them, in complete contradiction to God’s instructions.

5) Infant baptism…this makes a mockery of what baptism signifies…..it is treated as some kind of lucky charm, sprinkling an infant with water and calling it baptism so that it won’t go to hell if it dies…..Nowhere is it even mentioned in the Bible. Jesus was 30 when he was baptized. One must fully understand the significance of baptism and it has to be chosen as a decision of the heart of individuals who have accepted Christ as their savior, and have made the decision themselves to become baptized as such….there is no proxy arrangement.

6) The condition of the dead, (as believed by Jews) was that humans “slept” in death until the promised resurrection, which was a return to life, not a continuation of it in another form….in another realm. (Eccl 9:5, 10) When Jesus raised his friend Lazarus, where did he say Lazarus was? (John 11:11-14)

Death is the opposite of life…..so who was it that suggested that we don’t really die? Wasn’t that the devil’s first lie? He makes people believe that the dead go to either heaven or hell when they die, the Catholic church added “purgatory” but there is no such place mentioned in the Bible.

Since there is no such thing as an immortal soul, we do not have to invent places for them to go….especially not burning in eternal flames as if God were some kind of fiendish torturer…..another satanic lie!

7) Pagan celebrations dressed up as “Christian” events. We are told not to mix true worship with false worship. When Israel tried to do that God punished them. If you remember the golden calf incident, the Israelites coerced Aaron into fashioning their gold into the same kind of god they saw worshipped in Egypt….they called it “a festival to the Lord”, but it was no such thing…it was plainly idolatry. God put the offenders to death. It’s not what you call it…it’s what or whom the original was in honor of……Christmas, Easter, Valentine’s Day, Halloween,……all of pagan origin but celebrated by the whole of Christendom. (2 Cor 6:14-18) God saw the originals….he hated them then…he hates them still.

8) There were no priests officiating in the Christian congregations of the first century. Those congregations had a body of elders who were shepherds of the flock, a role that was never left to just one man.
There were no fancy vestments or headgear, as Jesus himself demonstrated…..he was dressed like his disciples….the reason why Judas had to identify him with a kiss.

9) There were no titles either, just positions of service.
One title that was never to be given to any man was “Father” in the spiritual sense (Matt 23:9)……how is the pope addressed? How are Catholic priests addressed?
Where will I even find a pope in first century Christianity?

“E·piʹsko·pos”, from which the word “bishop” is derived, simply means an overseer. It wasn’t a title denoting a position of authority, but one of responsibility….in the church, “Bishop” and “Archbishop” came to mean men of authority, wielding power over others.

10) Forgiveness of sins was granted on the basis of repentance and the shed blood of Jesus Christ. No man was ever authorized to forgive sins except Jesus, who had no sin. (Luke 5:20-24)

No sinful human being has any sanction from God to hear a confession and offer absolution on the basis of repetitious words, as if God is pleased with such things. Praying to God must come from the heart, not the hands fingering some beads that prompt a repetitious mental response. Where did the rosary come from? Not Christ. Where did “indulgences” come from? Again not Christ.

That will do for now…..but hopefully, you get the picture of why I reject what came from apostate Christianity.….

 

[GodsGrace]

I do identify as a Christian in the full understanding of what that means.

No Auntie Jane.
In the full understanding of what being a Christian means,
you should not consider yourself a Christian.

YOU don't get to make the requirements for being defined as Christian.
This was done at Jesus death and shortly thereafter by the church you detest,
why I certainly don't know.

Having been raised in Christendom, I have carefully studied all of my former church’s doctrines, and rejected every single one of them, based on my careful study of the Bible over 50 years.

Guess YOU know more than any denomination does.
Hope you have a PhD after your name....sounds like you deserve one.

Did you not know that Jesus foretold the apostasy that now masquerades as ”Christianity”…divided among thousands of denominational “churches” all claiming to teach the truth?

This happened because of the Reformation...a necessary historical happening - but an unfortunate one.
And I suppose that YOUR church is the only one that has the full truth.

How can you tell who the real Christians are? They hold no beliefs in common. “The wheat and the weeds” would be “separated” during this “time of the end”.

This is how:
They believe in one of the first creeds...like the Nicene Creed for instance.
They believe that Jesus was fully God and fully man.
They believe that Jesus always existed as the 2nd Person of the Holy Trinity.
They believe that Jesus PHYSICALLY died and resurrected.
This proves that Jesus IS GOD.

If you don't believe in the above - at the very least - I don't know what would qualify a person as Christian.

As this is a banned topic, let’s just say that in my research, this is a Catholic doctrine, passed down to her Protestant daughters along with “immortality of the soul” and “hellfire”…..yet there is no statement in the whole Bible where Jesus claims to be God…..or that humans live on invisibly after death…..or that God tortures souls in a fiery hell for all eternity.

I'm very happy that the deity of Jesus is a banned topic on this forum.
As it should be.
If Jesus is not God - then we're all following a man and it all ends right here.
Some claim that Jesus is the SON of God....
well AJ, if someone is a SON of God ,,,, then He is deity/divine, just as God is.
Nature begets nature.
No matter how you want to turn the coin..
JESUS IS GOD.

The Bible writers knew who the “sons of God” were…..the Bible differentiates between “sons of men” and “sons of God”.
Mention of them begins in Genesis 6:2, where we see rebel angels materializing and taking human women for the pleasures of the flesh, producing a hybrid race of gigantic bullies, (the Nephilim) who were violent in the extreme and disgustingly immoral in their activities. It was the reason God sent the flood…..this demonic interference took humanity into extreme wickedness way too soon. God flooded the world to destroy the wicked humans with the Nephilim, and to force their errant fathers back to the spirit realm, where God restrained them so that they could never materialize again. They could still interfere in the lives of humans but not in material form…..they can take over the body of another human, but not make one for themselves anymore. Demon possession still occurs to this day.

The above does not interest me.
Don't know why you even brought it up.

Faithful angels still brought messages to God’s human servants by materializing, as they did to Abraham at Mamre, and also to Lot in Sodom. They ate and drank what was provided for them by both families. (Gen 18 & 19)
Gabriel appeared to Daniel as a man. (Daniel 8:15-17)

So?

In Job we also see mention of “the sons of God” taking their places before Jehovah, and satan entered right in among them. (Job 1:6-7; Job 2:1)
In Job 38:4-7 we see again the “sons of God“ mentioned as applauding creation, having witnessed it all from their heavenly vantage point.
Someone’s Bible education is lacking if you did not know this….

So?

God created the human embryo implanted in Mary’s womb, transferring the life force of his precious son so that he could offer his life for mankind. He could not have any of the faulty DNA from any sinful human in order to be born “sinless”.

Oh my. You believe in the Immaculate Conception!
And to think you hate the CC which teaches this.

He could redeem the human race only if he was the exact equivalent of the first man.

When was Jesus the exact equivalent of the first man?
BEFORE the fall?
AFTER the fall?
NEVER?
What, in your opinion, makes Jesus like the first man in any one of the above times.


part 1 of 2

 

[GodsGrace]

2 of 2

@Aunty Jane

Jesus the man was created sinless by his Father. If he was God he would be immortal…which means it would be impossible for him to die. If Christ did not die the same death as Adam, we are not redeemed.

GOD IS IMMORTAL.
If you remember, having studied the bible for 50 years, Jesus resurrected from the dead and won death.
Does this not quality as being immortal?
Did Jesus remain dead?
Did He just die in a spiritual sense?

I'm not going to be discussing this with you ad infinitum.
You're free to believe what you believe - no matter how wrong it is.

He was “the last Adam“ who became a “life giving spirit”. (1 Cor 15:45)

1 Cor 15:47 says…”The first man is from the earth and made of dust; the second man is from heaven.”

Rom 5:19…”For just as through the disobedience of the one man many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one person many will be made righteous.”

There is no Scripture that promotes Jesus as a God/man….he was 100% human or he could not have paid the redemption price.
This formula you mention, is man made….it does not exist in Scripture at all.

I'll give you three instances where this is found in scripture:
MY LORD AND MY GOD. John 20:28 I don't recall Jesus correcting Thomas.
THE GLORY OF OUR GREAT GOD AND SAVIOR, JESUS CHRIST. Titus 2:13
YOU ARE THE CHRIST, THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD. Matthew 16:16 I seem to recall that Jesus stated that Matthew was correct.

The Jews believed that Jehovah was one, not three. (Deut 6:4) Jesus was Jewish and taught from the Hebrew Scriptures. He only ever said he was “the son of God”. (John 10:31-36)
The church invented the titles, “God the Son“ and “God the Holy Spirit“ to formulate their doctrine….they do not exist in any Bible verse.

GOD IS ONE.

Unfortunately, you don't take ALL of scripture into consideration.
The early church spent time studying Jesus and understanding who He was.
The RESURRECTION proved WHO HE WAS....
God in the flesh.
The Word become flesh.
The Word
The LOGOS

Again you demonstrate that you have little knowledge of Scripture….but perhaps much education in theology. These are not the same.
Jesus in his pre-human existence, was God’s “firstborn“…his “only begotten” (monogenes) which means an only child.
He was the first and only direct creation of his Father, as all other creation came through the agency of the son.…as John 1:2-3 and Col 1:16-17, clearly says.

Begotten means unique.
If it meant what YOU claim, the word would have long ago been removed
from the NT by the church you so detest so that the Trinity would not be endangered.

”This one was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.”…..

Since God had no beginning, what does that mean? What is it the “beginning” of?

In the beginning means from forever.
You could easily find this online.

“For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.”

Rev 3:14 Jesus plainly says…..”
“And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation.“

Col 1:15…”He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation”.

How can a visible human be the image of an invisible Being? Only in character and personality.
In order to be the “firstborn of ALL creation” he had to have existed before “ALL creation“ and be a part of it himself.

Yes, Jesus did exist before all creation.
FIRSTBORN means Jesus is the first of all God's saved person.
This is easily found online.
The creator...which you yourself just posted above:
“For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.”

So, Auntie Jane, since Jesus created, through Himself, all that we see about us,
He CANNOT BE PART OF THE CREATION.

If a man makes a watch....he is not PART of that watch.

Your own reasoning belies you.

 

[face2face]

This happened because of the Reformation...a necessary historical happening - but an unfortunate one.
And I suppose that YOUR church is the only one that has the full truth.

We know this is not true that any one body has complete truth and if it did I doubt it would be in total obedience to the Will of God. The seven churches is testimony to this.

But Aunty Jane is right about the "many" false doctrines in the RCC.

You will recall the true believers needed to come out of the Jewish house and while that house has been left desolate we know there is another house today which will also be left desolate. Both houses represent what ought to the House of God but for the moment he is in neither of them...Christ will come to clense both houses, a work he started but was not in God's plan to finish until his second coming.

F2F

 

[GodsGrace]

Are you serious?

“…Jesus asked his disciples: “Who are men saying the Son of man is?” 14 They said: “Some say John the Baptist, others E·liʹjah, and still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” 15 He said to them: “You, though, who do you say I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” (Matt 16:13-16)

You seem to assume a lot…assumption is not truth…..unless it is proven.

Again, you don’t know what the Bible teaches about the way things would be in this “time of the end”.
What did Jesus and the apostles say about the time of Christ’s return?

Things would change as they must, when “the church” had led so many down a wrong path…..(Matt 7:13-14) It was time for the “wheat” to separate from the “weeds”….how would they do that? By closely examining every doctrine to make sure that it was solidly based on Scripture….something the RCC never did…they altered the meaning of scripture to support their false doctrines….and the common people were forbidden to read the Bible, so they had no point of reference…just an apostate church’s word for everything. It gave them complete control for centuries….even over the reigning Monarchs.

The late 1800’s was called “the great awakening” for the reason that people began to wake up to the false teachings and doctrines of “the church”, and began to chafe under its unscriptural dogmas……not the church established 2000 years ago, but what the church became after the death of the apostles. Dark times were foretold as infiltrators introduced ideas from paganism and dressed them up as “Christianity”. Most of what “the church” taught for the 1500 years of its tyrannical control over the “Christian” world, was false but because it has been around so long, no one questions the very foundations upon which it was built.

The Reformation was not the solution to this problem, although it put God’s word back into the hands of the people who could read it for themselves and see what it taught….it actually broke “Christianity” up into literally thousands of disunited sects…..Protestantism deleted the more obvious doctrines that Catholicism had promoted for centuries, but the core of false doctrines…the very foundation upon which it was built remained the same……were they all cults? Who said they were? Only those who disagreed with them.
The “wheat” would reveal themselves because of the world’s hatred for them…..they would be treated as “heretics”. (John 15:18-21)

Having been instructed by an apostle or learning from those who were taught by them, means little…..look at Judas…he was taught by the son of God, up close and personal for three and a half years, and yet he betrayed him for money.

A growing tide of false teachings and pagan adoptions swept those in “the church” along with it, so that by the time of Constantine, it was ripe for the takeover that occurred under his leadership. The corruption was now official….becoming the state religion of the Roman Empire.…a fusion of pagan Roman beliefs with a weakened form of Christianity.
God told us in his word, not to do that. (2 Cor 6:14-18)

Oh please…..let’s just concentrate on the Scriptures and what history teaches us about who demonstrated Christ-like qualities and who remained “friends of the world” (James 4:4) while taking the Christian faith completely off the rails.
You are simply parroting off what someone told you….do you know for sure that it is true? If not you are merely spreading gossip.

And you don’t think God knows who was martyred for their faith…and who wasn’t?

It goes way back to the end of the first century…..what got ‘left behind’ by those who saw through the ruse that satan created to spread his counterfeit “Christian” doctrines around the world, was the apostate ideas that had crept in over time as Jesus and the apostles had warned. Why do you think that “few” will be found on the road to life? The majority are cluelessly traveling the wrong road, oblivious to its destination. (Matt 7:13-14)
It will be a hated and persecuted minority that will be saved. (John 15:18-21)

What I am preaching is a very inconvenient truth…..what you hold as gospel truth is the APOSTASY.

I am an avid Bible student and have been since my departure from the corrupt and divided church system.
God’s spirit cannot operate in disunity. It is a uniting spirit, which is why Paul could say….
”Now I urge you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you should all speak in agreement and that there should be no divisions among you, but that you may be completely united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.” (1 Cor 1:10)
Does this describe Christendom?

It would be a long list and I will post them later as time allows.…but I am not sure that you will even read them?

Eccl 1:4…
“A generation goes, and a generation comes, but the earth remains forever.”
Planet Earth is not going anywhere…..it is the ungodly inhabitants who will be removed.
Jesus said that “the meek shall inherit the earth”…….will God destroy their inheritance? (2 Peter 3:7)

God’s Kingdom will “come” so that God’s will can be “done on earth as it is in heaven”…..how often do people parrot off that prayer without knowing what it is that Jesus taught them to pray for?

“New Jerusalem” is in heaven…also called “heavenly Jerusalem”, or “the Jerusalem above”.
It is the seat of God‘s worship after the death of Christ, and the destruction of the Temple in literal Jerusalem, meant that it no longer served God’s purpose on earth. No sacrifices were now necessary as Christ had paid the ultimate price in his sacrifice.

Earthly Jerusalem was a ‘type’ for heavenly things. God’s priesthood, chosen from among mankind and taken to a heavenly assignment as “kings and priests” (Rev 20:6) will serve God at this heavenly temple, ruling over a cleansed people on a cleansed earth.

No one seems to realize that going to heaven was never in God’s plan for humanity…..he designed this beautiful earth for us to live forever and to enjoy for all eternity with our loved ones.
What Adam lost for us, Christ came to get back. (Rev 21:2-4)

I read your tirade.
That's all it is.
You do like to hear yourself speak - I will say that.

Love is the basis for the Christian religion.
Not hate. Not pride.
'nuff said.

 

[Aunty Jane]

No Auntie Jane.
In the full understanding of what being a Christian means,
you should not consider yourself a Christian.

YOU don't get to make the requirements for being defined as Christian.

But you have appointed yourself as my judge and jury without really investigating the information I present because you reject it outright…..as if your own views, held by the majority, cannot possibly be wrong….the Pharisees did that too…..did their majority views make what Jesus taught, “wrong”? Did their errors justify what they did in judging Jesus worthy of death?

What did “the church” do to so called “heretics”? It tortured confessions out of them and then justified murdering them. Where did Jesus give permission for such things?

This was done at Jesus death and shortly thereafter by the church you detest,
why I certainly don't know.

No, certainly NOT by the church I detest…..Jesus and his apostles demonstrated what it meant to call oneself a “Christian”….and “the church” that fell into apostasy, did so very early in Christian history…..in fact the apostles themselves lamented that it had already begun, but was “restrained” by the presence of the apostles, (2 Thess 2:3-12) until the last words of the Christian Scriptures were penned by John. After his death, that “restraint” was removed and the defection from Christ’s teachings began to spread…..by the time of Constantine, it was ripe for the complete takeover that was instituted by that pagan Emperor, not because he was drawn to Christianity, but because it was expedient for him to consolidate his divided empire with one state religion. The Roman Catholic Church was born. Christianity has no nationality. (Acts 10:34-35)

Guess YOU know more than any denomination does.
Hope you have a PhD after your name....sounds like you deserve one.

So credentials are necessary in your opinion? A PhD?……Awarded by whom?
Funny but the Pharisees thought that too….
Acts 4:13…
”Now when they saw the outspokenness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated and ordinary men, they were astonished. And they began to realize that they had been with Jesus.”
Imagine the audacity of humble fishermen teaching educated people, when they had no credentials!

John 7: 14-16…
“When the festival was half over, Jesus went up into the temple and began teaching. 15 And the Jews were astonished, saying: “How does this man have such a knowledge of the Scriptures when he has not studied at the schools?” 16 Jesus, in turn, answered them and said: “What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him who sent me.”

Jesus was not educated by their standards either….and that was the very reason why he chose the uneducated ones to be his apostles…..they were not indoctrinated by years of false teachings and misinterpretation of Scripture in the rabbinical schools. Jesus was taught by his Father…the one who “sent” him. (John 17:3) Jesus taught only what his Father taught him. How could he say that, if he was God?

This happened because of the Reformation...a necessary historical happening - but an unfortunate one.
And I suppose that YOUR church is the only one that has the full truth.

If one does not believe that they have the truth, why would they be here? This is a place for people to come and evaluate what others have to say…..if the truth is here on these boards, God will direct them to it. (John 6:44; 65)

The Reformation is not when the apostasy began….it was an episode in Christian history, when the time was due for the tyrannical power of the RCC to be broken, and the word of God to be made known. It was the time for translations to be produced so that people could read God’s word for themselves and see where the church had taken them…..down a long, dark path of lies and deceit.

This is how:
They believe in one of the first creeds...like the Nicene Creed for instance.

Who wrote the creeds? Where will I find them in the Bible?

They believe that Jesus was fully God and fully man.

Where will I find that in the Bible?

They believe that Jesus always existed as the 2nd Person of the Holy Trinity.Where will I find that in the Bible?

Where will I find that in the Bible?

They believe that Jesus PHYSICALLY died and resurrected.
This proves that Jesus IS GOD.

Yes, Jesus did die physically, and he was resurrected “in the spirit” where he returned to his Father after 40 days of proving to his apostles and disciples, that he was alive. He had survived the “heel” wound prophesied in Gen 3:15.
How any of those things is proven by Scripture is more about inference than stated fact.

Any Scripture proving that Jesus is more than “the son of God”, must be studied in the Greek, not just the English translations that can misrepresent what is written…..influenced by an ancient bias.

If you don't believe in the above - at the very least - I don't know what would qualify a person as Christian.

Believing the truth about who Jesus was, and still is (John 17:3)…..and continuing to follow his teachings, is what qualifies a person as one of his disciples.
When Jesus returned to heaven, he continued to call his Father “my God”…four times in one verse in the Revelation to John…..
“The one who conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out from it anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the New Jerusalem that descends out of heaven from my God, and my own new name.”

How does God have a god even in heaven? Please explain…..

 

[Aunty Jane]

I'm very happy that the deity of Jesus is a banned topic on this forum.
As it should be.
If Jesus is not God - then we're all following a man and it all ends right here.

That view is not scriptural. Jesus was “sent” as the redeemer of mankind….he spoke about being “sent” to accomplish his Father’s will many times…..please tell me why God had to “send” himself to die, when he is an immortal.…a being whose life cannot be destroyed.

God “sent” his son to become a human and to give his life as a ransom for Adam’s children. The price demanded under God’s law was… “an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life”.
Adam lost his perfect sinless life when he deliberately disobeyed God’s command….to fulfill his law, God sent his son to do what he could not. If Jesus was God, then he could not die the same death as Adam and the ransom is not paid, and therefore we are not redeemed and it ends there…..you see? It’s all in the way you read it.

Some claim that Jesus is the SON of God....

Jesus said that he is “the son of God”…it is all he ever claimed to be. (John 10:31-36)

well AJ, if someone is a SON of God ,,,, then He is deity/divine, just as God is.
Nature begets nature.
No matter how you want to turn the coin..
JESUS IS GOD.

As was shown to you in plain English, Jehovah has many “sons”, whom Jesus calls his “brothers”.
He can be “divine”, without usurping his Father’s position as “the only true God”.

Look up the word “theos“ (god) in a Greek Interlinear and see that it doesn’t just mean “God” with a capital “G”.
As the Scripture in John 10:31-36 indicates, human judges were called “gods” by Jehovah himself. They were divinely authorized by him, representing him. Jesus did too, representing him in every way.

The above does not interest me.
Don't know why you even brought it up.

So?

So?

You don’t know why I brought it up? That tells me that you didn’t bother to read what was posted….it was an integral point to the discussion. Who are called “sons of God” in the Bible?
Jesus is a “son of God”, but not the only one. He is God’s “firstborn” (Col 1:15) He is the first and only direct creation of his Father, which makes him unique. (Rev 3:14) All creation came into existence “through” the agency of this beloved firstborn son….he is the “us” and “our” in Genesis 1:26.
I am not surprised that you wanted to ignore it.

Oh my. You believe in the Immaculate Conception!
And to think you hate the CC which teaches this.

Again, you show how little you really know…..the “immaculate conception” relates to Mary in the RCC, not Jesus. Do you believe in the immaculate conception of Mary?
Jesus was ‘miraculously’ conceived by the power of God’s spirit.….as the Scriptures plainly state.

When was Jesus the exact equivalent of the first man?
BEFORE the fall?
AFTER the fall?
NEVER?
What, in your opinion, makes Jesus like the first man in any one of the above times.

Jesus became the one sent to redeem the human race when Mary gave birth to him….he did not become “the Christ” however, until his baptism in 29CE, when the holy spirit anointed him for the difficult mission he was to carry out. Now empowered to perform miracles, he would draw many of the “lost sheep” into the fold he would create.…..a different flock to the Jews who rejected him.

The ransom required an exact exchange…’a sinless life for a sinless life’…..that is why Jesus had to come from outside the now sinful human race….he was not carrying the imperfection of sin in his DNA. His life was transferred from heaven in order for God’s will to be done in rescuing Adam’s offspring.

 

[Keiw]

In like manner he will return. Your doctrine of Christ remaining in Heaven isn't Scripturally based, another one Keiw! David's throne is on earth.

F2F

His return= the presence( Matt 24:37--1Cor 15:23-- 2Pet 1:16))=Rev 6:2-He receives his crown=1914- Only true followers saw this occur
He comes to earth at Rev 19:11 leading Gods armies at Harmageddon. Rev 16= EVERY kingdom( Govt, armies, supporters) on earth are mislead to stand in opposition to Gods king then. They are now as well.= 99% on earth will fall. Jesus compared these last days to Noahs day( Luke 17:26) 99.9% fell then. He said the world took no note( Thats because they are being mislead by blind guides who run 99% of all religion on earth)--- Few find the road that leads off into life( be saved)

 

[face2face]

Rev 6:2-He receives his crown=1914-

Keiw, you can't even discern Genesis Chapter 3 correctly so how can you believe you will be those who are saved in the day of his coming? If you don't understand the first Covenant of Promise in the Bible how do you know all the covenants?

And the start date of the Kingdom on Earth is when he is appointed King of Israel by his people.

Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah; not according to the covenant I made with their fathers. Heb. 8:8, 9; Jer. 31:31, 32.

His coronation did not take place in 1914, nor did he take his seat on David's throne from Jerusalem.

Who do you think this is speaking of in Rev 6:2?

So I looked, and here came a white horse! The one who rode it had a bow, and he was given a crown, and as a conqueror he rode out to conquer. Re 6:2.

F2F

 

[Keiw]

Keiw, you can't even discern Genesis Chapter 3 correctly so how can you believe you will be those who are saved in the day of his coming? If you don't understand the first Covenant of Promise in the Bible how do you know all the covenants?

And the start date of the Kingdom on Earth is when he is appointed King of Israel by his people.

Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah; not according to the covenant I made with their fathers. Heb. 8:8, 9; Jer. 31:31, 32.

His coronation did not take place in 1914, nor did he take his seat on David's throne from Jerusalem.

Who do you think this is speaking of in Rev 6:2?

So I looked, and here came a white horse! The one who rode it had a bow, and he was given a crown, and as a conqueror he rode out to conquer. Re 6:2.

F2F

I know 100% its you who are in darkness not me.

 

[LuxMundy]

The forbidden tree placed where it had to be confronted often.

Why was the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil
placed in the center (midst) of the orchard (garden) of Eden?

Interestingly, Adam and Eve had to be deceived to "eat thereof".

It seems they had no intention of eating from the forbidden tree.

What was going on here?

Whether you take the story as literal or figurative, it begs many questions.

The tree is metaphorical.

Disobedience was the beginning of the downfall: "Do not eat and do not touch of that tree" said God. And man and woman did not respect that prohibition, although as kings of creation they were allowed to touch and eat of everything except of that tree because God wanted them to be inferior only to angels.

The tree: the means to test their obedience. What does obedience to God's commands imply? It implies all possible good, because God commands nothing but good. What is disobedience? It is evil, because it brings about a rebellious mental state in which Satan can be active.

Eve goes toward the tree, which, if avoided, would have caused her welfare, if approached, would cause her ruin. She goes there led by the childish curiosity of seeing what is special about it, and by a rashness that makes her consider God's command a useless one since she is strong and pure, the queen of Eden, where everything is subject to her and nothing can hurt her. Her presumption is her ruin. Presumption is the yeast of pride.

At the tree she finds the Seducer, who sings his song of lies to her inexperience, to her beautiful virginal inexperience, to her badly guarded inexperience. "You think there is evil here? No, there isn't. God told you because He wants to keep you as slaves under His power. You think you are king and queen? You are not even as free as wild animals. Animals can love one another with true love. You cannot. Animals are granted the gift of being creators like God. Animals generate little ones and see their families grow as much as they like. You do not. You are denied this joy. Why make you man and woman if you have to live thus? Be gods. You do not know the joy of being two in one flesh, that creates a third one and many more. Do not believe God when He promised you the joy of posterity seeing your children forming new families, leaving their father and mother for their families. He has given you a sham life: real life is to know the laws of life. Then you will be like gods and will be able to say to God: 'We are equal to You.'

And the allurement continued because there was no will to break it, on the contrary there was the will to continue it and to learn what did not belong to man. And the forbidden tree becomes really mortal for the human race because from its branches there hangs the fruit of bitter knowledge that comes from Satan. And the woman becomes a female and with the yeast of Satanic knowledge in her heart, she moves on to corrupt Adam. With their bodies and souls degraded and their morals corrupted, they became acquainted with sorrow and the death of both their souls deprived of Grace and of their bodies divested of immortality. And Eve's wound engendered suffering, which will not subside until the last couple on earth are dead.

It is said in Genesis that the Serpent tempted Eve when the Lord was not walking in Eden. If God had been in Eden, Satan could not have been there. If Eve had invoked God, Satan would have fled. If she had called to God! If she had hurried to Him saying: "Father! The Serpent has caressed me and I am upset." The Father would have purified and healed her with His breath, which could have infused new innocence into her as it had infused life. And it would have made her forget the snake's poison, nay it would have engendered in her a disgust for the Serpent, as it happens in those who bear an instinctive dislike for diseases of which they have just been cured. But Eve does not go to the Father. Eve goes back to the Serpent. The sensation is a sweet one for her. "Seeing that the fruit of the tree was good to eat and pleasing and agreeable to the eye, she took it and ate it."

And "she understood." Now Malice was inside her and was gnawing at her intestines. She saw with new eyes and heard with new ears the habits and voices of beasts. And she craved for them with insane greed.

She began the sin by herself. She accomplished it with her companion. That is why a heavier sentence is laid on woman. Because of her, man has become rebellious towards God and has become acquainted with lewdness and death. Because of her, he was no longer capable of dominating his three reigns: the reign of the spirit, because he allowed the spirit to disobey God; the moral reign, because he allowed passions to master him; the reign of the flesh, because he lowered it down to the instinctive level of beasts. "The Serpent seduced me" says Eve. "The woman offered me the fruit and I ate of it" says Adam. And the triple greed has ruled the three dominions since then.

Only Grace can relax the hold of this ruthless monster. And if Grace is alive, nay thoroughly alive, and kept more and more alive by the good will of a faithful son, it will succeed in strangling the monster and will no longer have anything to fear. It will not be afraid of internal tyrants, which are the flesh and passions; neither will it be afraid of external tyrants, these are the world and the mighty ones on the earth. It will dread neither persecutions nor death. It is as Paul the Apostle says: "I fear none of these things, neither do I care for my life more than I care for myself, provided I carry out the mission and the ministry the Lord Jesus gave me, and that was to bear witness to the Good News of God's Grace."

[Note: the meaning of "naked" in Gen. 3:7: "repellent in your humanity mixed with satanism."]

(The Poem of the Man-God: Vol. I)

 

[face2face]

I know 100% its you who are in darkness not me.

100 you say...and yet you have proven conclusively you know nothing about Genesis 3

How can you say such things Keiw?

 

[Aunty Jane]

GOD IS IMMORTAL.
If you remember, having studied the bible for 50 years, Jesus resurrected from the dead and won death.
Does this not quality as being immortal?

The very fact that Jesus died tells you that he was not an immortal. Immortality is defined as “the power of an indestructible life”. Jesus died, or else the ransom was not paid.
Perhaps it is a good thing to understand the difference between “immortality” and “everlasting life”….they are not the same. Mortals can be granted everlasting life and still remain mortal…..it doesn’t mean that they have to die, but only under the right circumstances, they can.
What kind of a fool would God be to grant immortality to a free willed untested creature?
Why do you think that access to “the tree of life“ was denied once sin had entered the picture?
Was God going to have a bunch of renegade humans who cannot die? Imagine…..

Did Jesus remain dead?
Did He just die in a spiritual sense?

He died physically, but was raised as a spirit by his God and Father. (1 Peter 3:18) As a reward, he was granted immortality, as will his elect when they too are taken to heaven as spirit beings to dwell in the presence of God, and bringing redeemed mankind back to God in reconciliation. (1 Cor 15:42-49)

I'm not going to be discussing this with you ad infinitum.
You're free to believe what you believe - no matter how wrong it is.

I am only the messenger…..you are free to believe or to disbelieve whatever you wish…..that is not my call. I am merely declaring a truth that is not popular with those in Chistendom who have been taught something completely different…….but then the “wheat and the weeds” have to be completely different, especially in this “time of the end”.
How do you understand Jesus parable? (Matt 13: 24-30; 36-42)

Begotten means unique.
If it meant what YOU claim, the word would have long ago been removed
from the NT by the church you so detest so that the Trinity would not be endangered.

To be “begotten” in the Scriptures requires a “begetter”…..one who existed before them, and was responsible for giving them life. Jesus is “only begotten” (monogenes) which means an only child….he is a unique being, who was “the beginning of God’s creation”. (Rev 3:14)

In the beginning means from forever.
You could easily find this online.

Since when has a “beginning“ ever meant “forever”?……the mere fact that something has a “beginning”, means that there was a time when it did not exist…..are you writing your own dictionary now?
I can find a lot of things “online”….but it doesn’t make them true.

Yes, Jesus did exist before all creation.
FIRSTBORN means Jesus is the first of all God's saved person.

Read that again and try to make sense of what you just said….God saved God…..???

This is easily found online.
The creator...which you yourself just posted above:
“For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.”

So, Auntie Jane, since Jesus created, through Himself, all that we see about us,
He CANNOT BE PART OF THE CREATION.

Read the whole passage again….
Col 1:13-18….
”He rescued us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14 by means of whom we have our release by ransom, the forgiveness of our sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all things, and by means of him all things were made to exist, 18 and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he might become the one who is first in all things”.

Tell me what you read….he is “the firstborn of ALL creation”…..which makes him part of that creation. As God’s “firstborn”….he holds a unique place in the heavenly arrangement. He was used in the creation of all things, after his own creation. (Rev 3:14) He was “with God” “in the beginning”…..

If a man makes a watch....he is not PART of that watch.

Who could argue with that? What does it have to do with Christ?….of whom it is clearly stated “he is the firstborn of ALL creation”.
Not only did creation come “through” him…it was brought into existence “for him”.

Your own reasoning belies you.

Perhaps you need to study up on what you believe is truth, to see if the Bible agrees with your beliefs?

I'll give you three instances where this is found in scripture:
MY LORD AND MY GOD. John 20:28 I don't recall Jesus correcting Thomas.

Was Thomas in disagreement with the rest of the apostles who said collectively, (and which must have included Thomas)..…..
1 Cor 8:5-6…
”For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.”

Was Thomas calling Jesus “theos” any different to John calling him “theos” in John 1:1?
Do you know what neither of these disciples called Jesus?…”ho theos”, which is seen in the Greek when speaking about Jehovah…..Jesus is never call “ho theos” because it means “THE God”…..this is what they called Jehovah because the Greeks had no word for a singular god without a name. The Jews had ceased uttering it, (for their own reasons,) so there was no other way to describe him in their language.
When you consult an Interlinear you can see the differentiation, especially in John 1:1. Only one is “ho theos”…the other is just “theos” which can mean “divine” or or “one given authority by the Almighty” as seen in John 10:31-36.

THE GLORY OF OUR GREAT GOD AND SAVIOR, JESUS CHRIST. Titus 2:13

In case you are not aware, Greek does not use the same phraseology as English.
In the Greek it reads….”the glory of the great God of us and of savior, Jesus Christ”.
It does not say what is translated into English to support an erroneous doctrine.

YOU ARE THE CHRIST, THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD. Matthew 16:16 I seem to recall that Jesus stated that Matthew was correct.

Yes, Jesus is ”the Christ” or “anointed one”. So who anointed Jesus? His Father did at his baptism, empowering him with holy spirit and confirming his audible approval for the mission he was sent to carry out.
Jesus is “the son of the living God”…as Peter clearly said…..being “the son of God” makes him “the son”…..a completely separate entity to his Father.….like any other son. It’s the accepted definition of the word in English, is it not? Who on these boards imagines themselves to be their own father?

 

[Aunty Jane]

@asoul ….I am curious about your avatar, can you explain what it means?

[Note: the meaning of "naked" in Gen. 3:7: "repellent in your humanity mixed with satanism."]

May I ask where this definition comes from? As far as I know, being “naked” is what the first humans were from the beginning, with no feelings of shame or embarrassment…..it meant that now a knowledge of evil had entered their consciousness, that nakedness would somehow be tied inextricably to sin……and judging by the amount of attention God’s law gave to Israel regarding sexual matters, it was an important part of the law…..identifying evil, with God teaching his people to try to avoid it.

Why was sexual sin so important to God?…..because we are designed to be ‘creators’, passing life on to the next generation. It was to be a sacred thing, as life itself is sacred to God. Children were to be produced in a loving family arrangement, with two parents who were committed to one another in marriage, and would each contribute to their child’s education, in their own way.
But when misused, sexual sin makes a mockery of the sexual act, throwing it in the gutter and making it filthy. It then became the means for selfish gratification and the noble part of passing on life became an inconvenience….often leading to abortion, and all manner of sexual deviation.
God helps us to keep our now corrupted human nature, under control.
We always need to search below the surface to find what is not explicitly stated, but is backed up elsewhere in the Scriptures. It’s how we get the big picture, rather than staring at a few dead pixels….and guessing the rest.

 

[LuxMundy]

@asoul ….I am curious about your avatar, can you explain what it means?

It's a painting titled Body and Soul. The artist created this visual embodiment of the dichotomy of the human condition.

May I ask where this definition comes from?

I edited in a link to the source in my post (#173).

 

[face2face]

The very fact that Jesus died tells you that he was not an immortal. Immortality is defined as “the power of an indestructible life”. Jesus died, or else the ransom was not paid.
Perhaps it is a good thing to understand the difference between “immortality” and “everlasting life”….they are not the same. Mortals can be granted everlasting life and still remain mortal…..it doesn’t mean that they have to die, but only under the right circumstances, they can.

If you are saying a mortal who has the law of sin and death working in their members can possess everlasting life you very deceived.

Maybe you should provide an example!

F2F

 

[face2face]

@asoul ….I am curious about your avatar, can you explain what it means?


May I ask where this definition comes from? As far as I know, being “naked” is what the first humans were from the beginning, with no feelings of shame or embarrassment…..it meant that now a knowledge of evil had entered their consciousness, that nakedness would somehow be tied inextricably to sin……and judging by the amount of attention God’s law gave to Israel regarding sexual matters, it was an important part of the law…..identifying evil, with God teaching his people to try to avoid it.

...and God covered their (A&E) nakedness and sin Jane

Wow how can you write this and still not understand such a simple principle.

F2F

 

[GodsGrace]

But you have appointed yourself as my judge and jury without really investigating the information I present because you reject it outright…..as if your own views, held by the majority, cannot possibly be wrong….the Pharisees did that too…..did their majority views make what Jesus taught, “wrong”? Did their errors justify what they did in judging Jesus worthy of death?

What makes you think I haven't investigated?
Judge and jury?
Yes.
I maintain and insist on my right to believe you to be wrong in some doctrine or other.
I also insist on my right to know what a Christian is and to know if someone is or is not a Christian.
Just to be transparent, this does not mean I don't believe you to be saved...doctrine does not save a person.

As to the majority....
Jesus had some new ideas, so of course He would not be in the majority.
But look at the Christian church just a few years later.

I'll state this:
If 98 persons see a blue wall
and 2 persons see a green wall
I'd stop and investigate and give credence to the 98 that see a blue wall.
Could be the other 2 have eye problems.

What did “the church” do to so called “heretics”? It tortured confessions out of them and then justified murdering them. Where did Jesus give permission for such things?

You won't get a complaint our of me.
But what this has to do with the truth....I don't know.

Are we discussing a church now or doctrine?
All I did was to bring attention to the fact that you HATE the CC,
that hate has no room in a Christian person,
and that you allow this to cloud your reasoning ability and allows you to believe some man that invented some doctrine in the 1800's.

Yes. I'd question anyone who came up with any new idea that was not present at the time of Jesus - or shortly thereafter.

No, certainly NOT by the church I detest…..Jesus and his apostles demonstrated what it meant to call oneself a “Christian”….and “the church” that fell into apostasy, did so very early in Christian history…..in fact the apostles themselves lamented that it had already begun, but was “restrained” by the presence of the apostles, (2 Thess 2:3-12) until the last words of the Christian Scriptures were penned by John. After his death, that “restraint” was removed and the defection from Christ’s teachings began to spread…..by the time of Constantine, it was ripe for the complete takeover that was instituted by that pagan Emperor, not because he was drawn to Christianity, but because it was expedient for him to consolidate his divided empire with one state religion. The Roman Catholic Church was born. Christianity has no nationality. (Acts 10:34-35)

I agree that it was a mistake for the early church to align itself with any governmental power.
And this mistake continued up until, I'd say, certainly the 1800s.

So credentials are necessary in your opinion? A PhD?……Awarded by whom?
Funny but the Pharisees thought that too….
Acts 4:13…
”Now when they saw the outspokenness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated and ordinary men, they were astonished. And they began to realize that they had been with Jesus.”
Imagine the audacity of humble fishermen teaching educated people, when they had no credentials!

John 7: 14-16…
“When the festival was half over, Jesus went up into the temple and began teaching. 15 And the Jews were astonished, saying: “How does this man have such a knowledge of the Scriptures when he has not studied at the schools?” 16 Jesus, in turn, answered them and said: “What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him who sent me.”

Yes. I do believe that theologians know much more about the bible than you or I do.
It's a shame more of us don't pay enough attention to them.

I'll give you a quick example.
Calvinists insist that the NT teaches that we are dragged to God because of translation issues.
But do the verses they use really use the word drag?
And does EVERY verse they use translate correctly?
No.
And this is an important issue.

Jesus was not educated by their standards either….and that was the very reason why he chose the uneducated ones to be his apostles…..they were not indoctrinated by years of false teachings and misinterpretation of Scripture in the rabbinical schools. Jesus was taught by his Father…the one who “sent” him. (John 17:3) Jesus taught only what his Father taught him. How could he say that, if he was God?

Was Paul dumb too?
Does someone that is not educated mean they are dumb?
This is very prejudiced on your part - and I don't use that word lightly.

You don't understand the Trinity and you don't want to, so I'm not wasting time on how the Father taught the Son.

If one does not believe that they have the truth, why would they be here? This is a place for people to come and evaluate what others have to say…..if the truth is here on these boards, God will direct them to it. (John 6:44; 65)

The Reformation is not when the apostasy began….it was an episode in Christian history, when the time was due for the tyrannical power of the RCC to be broken, and the word of God to be made known. It was the time for translations to be produced so that people could read God’s word for themselves and see where the church had taken them…..down a long, dark path of lies and deceit.

I hope you're aware that most persons:
1. Could not read.
2. Bibles cost a small fortune that only the super rich could afford.

Who wrote the creeds? Where will I find them in the Bible?

Where will I find that in the Bible?

Where will I find that in the Bible?

Not going back to see what I posted,
but everything the early church taught was in the bible.

Yes, Jesus did die physically, and he was resurrected “in the spirit” where he returned to his Father after 40 days of proving to his apostles and disciples, that he was alive. He had survived the “heel” wound prophesied in Gen 3:15.
How any of those things is proven by Scripture is more about inference than stated fact.

Any Scripture proving that Jesus is more than “the son of God”, must be studied in the Greek, not just the English translations that can misrepresent what is written…..influenced by an ancient bias.

Jesus was resurrected only in Spirit.
That kind of ends our conversation, doesn't it?
You sound like the very gnostics the early church was fighting.
As to the Greek - I hope you know that the inventor of the JWs CLAIMED to know Greek but did not.

Maybe we should leave knowing "the Greek" to scholars - those with the PhD after their name.

Believing the truth about who Jesus was, and still is (John 17:3)…..and continuing to follow his teachings, is what qualifies a person as one of his disciples.
When Jesus returned to heaven, he continued to call his Father “my God”…four times in one verse in the Revelation to John…..
“The one who conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out from it anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the New Jerusalem that descends out of heaven from my God, and my own new name.”

How does God have a god even in heaven? Please explain…..

If Jesus was JUST A TEACHER,
we could just as well be following BUDDHA...
what's the difference?
So, sure you could be a disciple of Jesus...
but that DOES NOT make you a Christian.....just a follower.
Even Richard Dawkins has declared himself a cultural Christian.

How does God have a God in heaven?
Perhaps you should also read Revelation 19 and stop cherry picking verses that you like.

In Revelation 19, who is the one sitting on white horse and called Faithful and True, and will judge in righteousness? He is wearing a bloody robe (ask yourself why) in verse 13 He iscalled THE WORD OF GOD. I do believe John called Jesus the WORD OF GOD.

On his robe was written Lord of Lords and King of kings.
To whom is that referring?
To Jesus or to God Father?
or perhaps BOTH?
Jesus and the Father are one....
Jesus is in the Father and the Father is in Jesus.
John 10:13 I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE.

It all makes a lot of sense once you understand the Trinity.