Why Should the Church Endure the Great Trib?
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Trekson,
Pre Wrath makes no sense to me whatever and while I attempt to walk by faith and not by sight in my daily life in Christ, the doctrine to which I hold on to must be plausible. To take a chapter such as Revelation 6 and twist it to say that it is not talking about the wrath of God when it clearly says it is puts me off to the point that I cannot see past that error.
Pre Wrath makes no sense to me whatever and while I attempt to walk by faith and not by sight in my daily life in Christ, the doctrine to which I hold on to must be plausible. To take a chapter such as Revelation 6 and twist it to say that it is not talking about the wrath of God when it clearly says it is puts me off to the point that I cannot see past that error.
graceismine
good for you. i enjoyed reading your posts and seeing how you tried to see where he was coming from and not just argue. i'm impressed.
God bless
good for you. i enjoyed reading your posts and seeing how you tried to see where he was coming from and not just argue. i'm impressed.
God bless
Hi 7angels, I'm pre-wrath.
Hi Grace, You are free to believe as you wish but I do not appreciate the charge that I need to "twist" scripture to come up with my beliefs. I do not read into it what isn't there before it's time! Let me outline it again, one more time and then show other examples.
Rev. 6:10-11 - "And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."
The 5th seal martyrs and those who told them to rest both proclaim that God's judgment and wrath has not yet arrived! and then here we have the only times the word "wrath" is used in Rev. 6.
After the signs of the 6th seal which match the OT prophecies like Joel 2:31 as to what heralds the day of the Lord which is the day of His wrath and it must be said that no one can claim His wrath is come before these signs appear! Rev. 6:16-17 - " And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" As I said before the phrase "is come" is in the present/future tense meaning they are about to come!
Here are some other examples:
John 12:23 - "And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified."
John 14:29 - "And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe."
John 15:26 - "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:"
John 16:13 - "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come."
John 16:21 - "A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world."
I stayed with John as it is his writing style that seems to be in question. In all these verses the phrase "is come" is used to describe events that have not yet occurred but are on the immediate horizon. You are free to disagree but I read the scriptures as they are written in the way they are written. There is no twisting here!
Hi Grace, You are free to believe as you wish but I do not appreciate the charge that I need to "twist" scripture to come up with my beliefs. I do not read into it what isn't there before it's time! Let me outline it again, one more time and then show other examples.
Rev. 6:10-11 - "And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."
The 5th seal martyrs and those who told them to rest both proclaim that God's judgment and wrath has not yet arrived! and then here we have the only times the word "wrath" is used in Rev. 6.
After the signs of the 6th seal which match the OT prophecies like Joel 2:31 as to what heralds the day of the Lord which is the day of His wrath and it must be said that no one can claim His wrath is come before these signs appear! Rev. 6:16-17 - " And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" As I said before the phrase "is come" is in the present/future tense meaning they are about to come!
Here are some other examples:
John 12:23 - "And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified."
John 14:29 - "And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe."
John 15:26 - "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:"
John 16:13 - "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come."
John 16:21 - "A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world."
I stayed with John as it is his writing style that seems to be in question. In all these verses the phrase "is come" is used to describe events that have not yet occurred but are on the immediate horizon. You are free to disagree but I read the scriptures as they are written in the way they are written. There is no twisting here!
You mean you cannot actually see per the Seals in Rev.6 that God's wrath is not until that 6th Seal, AFTER the persecution of those of Christ's Church on earth back at the 5th Seal?Graceismine said:
If you cannot see that, then it means you're following something else other than God's Holy Writ.
trekson so you are a mid tribber. me personally i am a pre tribber but i would be just as happy if it happened during the mid trib. either way i avoid the 3.5 years of God's wrath on isreal.
veteran
please don't insult people's beliefs(If you cannot see that, then it means you're following something else other than God's Holy Writ.). the rapture to my knowledge has not been able to decide 100% that any side is right or wrong but experts do say that the pre trib and mid trib stand points have the most credibility as being correct. you can post all the scripture you want to prove otherwise but that does not really matter because all sides of the rapture can do the same thing so it is pointless to argue the fact.
God bless
veteran
please don't insult people's beliefs(If you cannot see that, then it means you're following something else other than God's Holy Writ.). the rapture to my knowledge has not been able to decide 100% that any side is right or wrong but experts do say that the pre trib and mid trib stand points have the most credibility as being correct. you can post all the scripture you want to prove otherwise but that does not really matter because all sides of the rapture can do the same thing so it is pointless to argue the fact.
God bless
Not an insult, but the truth...7angels said:
5th SEAL:
Rev 6:9-17
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
6th SEAL:
Rev.6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him That sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
(KJV)
There's no shame being in ignorance. It's willingly staying... in ignorance that is shameful.
Trekson,
IF you have the truth regarding your view on the rapture then I am blind. If you do not have the truth then my ignorance about what you are trying to say makes no difference. I'm sorry you don't like me saying you twisted the Scripture but that is how I see it. Once people start doing that something inside me shuts down.
I don't mean to offend you I'm just being truthful about how I see it. :)
Veteran said
We are not going through any of it, I am not looking for Antichrist to arrive and I won't be among any of those hiding in the rocks. I am not numbered in any way with unbelievers and what is to befall them. I am of the body of Christ. His body will not go through this torment which you seem to be playing down as if it is going to be a picnic.
Praise God for His grace and His mercy.
IF you have the truth regarding your view on the rapture then I am blind. If you do not have the truth then my ignorance about what you are trying to say makes no difference. I'm sorry you don't like me saying you twisted the Scripture but that is how I see it. Once people start doing that something inside me shuts down.
I don't mean to offend you I'm just being truthful about how I see it. :)
Well said to Veteran. :)7angels said:
Veteran said
You mean not being willing to agree with your view. ;) I don't like Pre Wrath mainly because we are not appointed to wrath and yáll want us to go through some sort of judgment because you can't accept that Jesus did it all.
We are not going through any of it, I am not looking for Antichrist to arrive and I won't be among any of those hiding in the rocks. I am not numbered in any way with unbelievers and what is to befall them. I am of the body of Christ. His body will not go through this torment which you seem to be playing down as if it is going to be a picnic.
Praise God for His grace and His mercy.
What does one's refusal to simply read... those verses about the 5th and 6th Seal events have to do with my "view"? Refusing to read those verses is a show of willful ignorance. Now if one doesn't really understand the English language very well because they are of a different language, then I can understand those having a problem with reading English. You nor anyone else here has not shown that to be the case.Graceismine said:
The specific wrath Apostle Paul was talking about in 1 Thess.5 that those in Christ are not appointed to suffer is about God's cup of wrath poured out upon the wicked on the LAST day of this present world, at Christ's second coming. The coming great tribulation period our Lord warned us about is Satan's wrath upon God's people. Those you are listening to have lied to you about that. I tell you now, our Lord Jesus wants us to make a stand for Him throughout that tribulation. We've got a specific duty to perform for Him in that time. Be strong in the Faith.Graceismine said:
Lot of Bible Scripture proves you wrong. You're listening to would-be Houdinis that cannot provide you a way of escape, for our Lord Jesus showed that our gathering at His coming is to be after... the great tribulation He mentioned (Matt.24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27).Graceismine said:
Veteran
My faith in God is bigger than fear of the coming storm. Isaiah 43 :2 When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee.
But It is not about me looking for a way of escape. It is about a theological point of view as to whether or not the Church .( meaning His whole body) will go through the Tribulation with Israel and other unbelievers.
You obviously see yourself and your family going through this terrible time a time so horrible that men are wanting the rocks to fall upon them. Why would you have to or want to when Jesus suffered the wrath of God for you?
Just answer the question, why must the church suffer the wrath of God at that time?
BTW I am truly grateful that God has provided an escape route through Jesus. My blessed hope lies with Him...Maranatha!
Veteran said
One thing I know is that anyone who is not "in Christ" will have to take a stand against the Antichrist or be decapitated. If you are not born again you will certainly be in the position of stand taking.
And FYI I do and have read the verses.
Nice try! That is usually what the Post Tribbers say. We are looking for a way of escape. Can you tell me why the church should go through any of The Tribulation not just part of it as the op ed asks?
My faith in God is bigger than fear of the coming storm. Isaiah 43 :2 When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee.
But It is not about me looking for a way of escape. It is about a theological point of view as to whether or not the Church .( meaning His whole body) will go through the Tribulation with Israel and other unbelievers.
You obviously see yourself and your family going through this terrible time a time so horrible that men are wanting the rocks to fall upon them. Why would you have to or want to when Jesus suffered the wrath of God for you?
Just answer the question, why must the church suffer the wrath of God at that time?
BTW I am truly grateful that God has provided an escape route through Jesus. My blessed hope lies with Him...Maranatha!
Veteran said
Replacement Theology? Who are the "God's people"to which you refer? As you can see I am replying bottom to top.Did Jesus tell you personally that He wants us to make a stand for Him throughout the Tribulation? I don't see that is Scripture. WHY would He want that anyway?
One thing I know is that anyone who is not "in Christ" will have to take a stand against the Antichrist or be decapitated. If you are not born again you will certainly be in the position of stand taking.
And FYI I do and have read the verses.
Right, that was a long time ago, or it seems so. well I disagree with him on that. Time to trundle away from this thread it is not going anywhere especially when I am going over the same things.Dan57 said:
DAN YOU MISUNDERSTAND THE STANCE OF VETERAN. he is a post tribber and not a mid tribber so he believes we will go through God's wrath. if i remember correctly and if i am wrong veteran you may correct me but he believes we are going through the tribulation now. a post tribber has one big problem with their beliefs. during the great trib God is going to give the devil power to overcome the saints which is the exact opposite that Jesus did for us by giving us all power over the devil. this is why the Lord said that for this reason the trib was going to be cut short or all the saints would be converted to satan's thinking. God is the same yesterday, today and forever so God would never change his covenant unless it no longer applies and for that to happen the church/bride has to be gone because that is who the covenant was make for and with.
God bless
God bless
Hi 7angels, Your words: " during the great trib God is going to give the devil power to overcome the saints which is the exact opposite that Jesus did for us by giving us all power over the devil. this is why the Lord said that for this reason the trib was going to be cut short or all the saints would be converted to satan's thinking."
I've never heard anyone interpret it that way before. The phrase, "overcome the saints" simply means that at that time the a/c will kill many of them, certainly not "convert" them. This time is where the 5th seal martyrs get "fulfilled per Rev. 6:11. In one way it could be the way this verse is defined. Matt. 10: 23-28 - "But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. 24 The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord. 25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household? 26 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known. 27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops. 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
There is also a companion verse to this prophecy. Dan.11:32-35 - "And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits. 33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. 34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. 35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed."
So, as you can see, "overcoming" the saints does NOT mean converting them. It means killing and imprisoning them.
I've never heard anyone interpret it that way before. The phrase, "overcome the saints" simply means that at that time the a/c will kill many of them, certainly not "convert" them. This time is where the 5th seal martyrs get "fulfilled per Rev. 6:11. In one way it could be the way this verse is defined. Matt. 10: 23-28 - "But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. 24 The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord. 25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household? 26 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known. 27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops. 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
There is also a companion verse to this prophecy. Dan.11:32-35 - "And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits. 33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. 34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. 35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed."
So, as you can see, "overcoming" the saints does NOT mean converting them. It means killing and imprisoning them.
sorry i could not find the exact scripture at the time so i paraphrased it. the antichrist will either convert or kill all the elect if the great tribulation were not cut short. either way through conversion or killing the elect will not survive if things kept going as they were heading. sorry about any misunderstanding.
So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel - … For then there will be great distress [tribulation], unequaled from the beginning of the world until now - and never to be equaled again. If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened (Matthew 24:15, 21-22).
Jesus is saying that if the Antichrist were not stopped at the end of the 3½ years of persecution “no one would survive.” In other words, if the Great Tribulation were allowed to continue until its natural conclusion – say another year for example - then, “no one would survive.” But, “for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.” Christ will return at the end of the 3½ years, gather the elect and defeat the Antichrist before everyone is killed.
God bless
So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel - … For then there will be great distress [tribulation], unequaled from the beginning of the world until now - and never to be equaled again. If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened (Matthew 24:15, 21-22).
Jesus is saying that if the Antichrist were not stopped at the end of the 3½ years of persecution “no one would survive.” In other words, if the Great Tribulation were allowed to continue until its natural conclusion – say another year for example - then, “no one would survive.” But, “for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.” Christ will return at the end of the 3½ years, gather the elect and defeat the Antichrist before everyone is killed.
God bless
Hi 7, Yes, that is the typical post-trib view, but personally I don't believe the bible gives any time frame for the duration of the great trib. My opinion has lately changed on that and now I'm leaning towards the great trib concluding by the middle of the week.
Graceismine said:
Christ Jesus specifically proclaimed His coming return and the gathering of His AFTER... the tribulation He mentioned, as per the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture. And there are many more Bible Scriptures that seal that same timing. If you refuse to listen to Him regarding that, then what good would it do for me to remind you of it? You are left in your deceptions from following men's doctrines, instead of what Christ said.
Bearing false witness again I see.7angels said:
I NEVER said that we as believers on Christ Jesus who remain faithful will ever... suffer God's wrath.
Your statement about the saints is twisted; simply because your trying... to fit men's doctrines you heed into those Scriptures about the dragon being given power over the saints for the end. The meaning of that is power over their flesh, NOT power over their spirit, which is WHY those in Christ who stand fast during the tribulation will be targeted by Satan's host and many of us will be persecuted, just as the events of the 5th Seal does declare.
The Lord is all about reaching down to people and making Himself known to them. He is all about saving people from themselves and ultimately a Christ-less eternity.
First, God sent Jesus and allowed Him to suffer unimaginable suffering in order to be a witness to mankind of the Father's love.
Now, He is working through the Church and still reaching out to people, to make Himself known and to display to the world what the love of God is. We have been bought with a price and our life is not our own. God reserves the right to make Himself known to others through our lives and what He chooses to do with and through our lives. Just like Jesus, He may see fit to crush us, so that a sweet fragrance of God's love will be revealed to lost people.
What would we know and where would we be without Job's, Jesus Christ's and Paul's sufferings? We would have little to no understanding of the ways of the Lord and how He uses trials and tribulation to add to the Church and refine and purify His children.
Most centuries since Pentecost have had some kind of great tribulation in many parts of the World. The Rapture theology only flourishes in a nation where no tribulation is happening. Try selling that theology to Christians in countries where they are being tortured and killed for their faith. You may not get many takers.
First, God sent Jesus and allowed Him to suffer unimaginable suffering in order to be a witness to mankind of the Father's love.
Now, He is working through the Church and still reaching out to people, to make Himself known and to display to the world what the love of God is. We have been bought with a price and our life is not our own. God reserves the right to make Himself known to others through our lives and what He chooses to do with and through our lives. Just like Jesus, He may see fit to crush us, so that a sweet fragrance of God's love will be revealed to lost people.
What would we know and where would we be without Job's, Jesus Christ's and Paul's sufferings? We would have little to no understanding of the ways of the Lord and how He uses trials and tribulation to add to the Church and refine and purify His children.
Most centuries since Pentecost have had some kind of great tribulation in many parts of the World. The Rapture theology only flourishes in a nation where no tribulation is happening. Try selling that theology to Christians in countries where they are being tortured and killed for their faith. You may not get many takers.
Hi Axehead, Your words: "The Rapture theology only flourishes in a nation where no tribulation is happening."
That's not a true statement at all. The rapture isn't about "rescue" from the great trib or from torture, imprisonment or martyrdom. The one and only thing the "rapture" is about is removing His church before the wraths begin. Ask those same people if they're looking for the return of Christ as their "blessed hope" and I'll bet you'll get an enthusiastic and resounding yes! Fortunately, they occur at the same time!
That's not a true statement at all. The rapture isn't about "rescue" from the great trib or from torture, imprisonment or martyrdom. The one and only thing the "rapture" is about is removing His church before the wraths begin. Ask those same people if they're looking for the return of Christ as their "blessed hope" and I'll bet you'll get an enthusiastic and resounding yes! Fortunately, they occur at the same time!
Matthew 24:21-22
For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s (Strong's #1588) sake those days will be shortened.
Colossians 3:9-13
Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all. Therefore, as the elect of God (Strong's #1588), holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering; bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do.
To say that the elect in Matthew 24 only refers to the physical nation of Israel is, in light of Colossians 3, heresy. Without this heresy, the pretribulation argument fails.
Therefore, doctrine debunked.
For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s (Strong's #1588) sake those days will be shortened.
Colossians 3:9-13
Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all. Therefore, as the elect of God (Strong's #1588), holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering; bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do.
To say that the elect in Matthew 24 only refers to the physical nation of Israel is, in light of Colossians 3, heresy. Without this heresy, the pretribulation argument fails.
Therefore, doctrine debunked.
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