Why Should the Church Endure the Great Trib?

[Trumpeter]

Ask for what gift?? The gift of uncontrollable shaking of the head and body, uncontrollable laughter, writhing in the floor and making animal noises? running up and down the aisle like a mad man? falling backwards in the floor like Christ's enemies did that came to arrest Jesus? speaking jibberish which none present can understand?


NONE of those manifestations above are of GOD and The Holy Spirit!

JB doesn't have to ask for The Holy Spirit baptism, he already has it. Apostle Paul made it very PLAIN that NOT ALL speak the 'cloven' tongue of Pentecost (which obviously is not the same tongue you claim because the true cloven tongue MUST fit the example in Acts 2). Apostle Paul also listed the VARIOUS administrations divided among the brethren by The Holy Spirit.


One of the EASIEST ways to know one's claim of The Holy Spirit baptism being false is their adherence to the Pre-Trib secret Rapture fly away doctrine of men that began in 1830's Great Britain among those who were having those crazy seducing spirit manifestations in the above. That Pre-Trib secret Rapture doctrine was never a doctrine taught by Christ nor any of His Apostles.

Greetings veteran,

The gift of tongues. The rest of the things you mention are Demonic.
We left a church because a prophet gave them a Word and told them NOT to go running after miracles but to do Isaiah 58 instead.

Isa 58:10 [If] you extend your soul to the hungry And satisfy the afflicted soul, Then your light shall dawn in the darkness, And your darkness shall [be] as the noonday.

So what did the church leaders do? They went to Brownsville to bring this spirit back to the church! Needless to say, we don't attend there anymore.

The gift of tongues is scriptural and I have seen it used properly and it is very powerful.
No more than 2 or 3 may speak and when done there must be someone to interpret what was said.


I've seen the gift of tongues used in a proper setting at a Bible study we were attending.
The assistant pastor was teaching when all of a sudden he broke out speaking in tongues.
There were about half a dozen people there and nobody knew what he was saying until the lady hosting the Bible study suddenly spoke up and told everyone what he had said.
It was a very powerful Word from The Lord.
The hostess was a good friend of ours and wasn't an educated women. English was her only language.
After everyone had left we asked her what had happened and she told us that she heard him speaking in English.
She was as shocked about her ability to interpret as was everyone else.

God bless.

 

[John S]

I'm Sorry - that you fell for that "Gift of Tongues" ACT. The pastor expected you to hear it - so he let you hear it - and this woman just happened to be there to interpret. Now he has SUCH credibility.
That charlatan act is as old as the hills and yet naive people STILL fall for that act in 2013.

Satan will have his own charlatan acts that will put his to shame.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi John S,

I have heard the gift of interpretation many times. It is a specific gift, just as is prophecy or giving a tongue under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. There is always a first time for someone to interpret, even if they have operated other gifts previously - but never interpretation. God is looking for honest hearts, whose integrity can be trusted to bring forth the word that He has given, in its entirety with nothing held back and nothing added.

 

[John S]

If you want to believe that that parlor trick is actually happening, then good for you. I don't.

 

[ENOCH2010]

According to the Bible speaking in other tongues is speaking in other languages, not gibberish.

 

[veteran]

Greetings veteran,

The gift of tongues. The rest of the things you mention are Demonic.
We left a church because a prophet gave them a Word and told them NOT to go running after miracles but to do Isaiah 58 instead.

Isa 58:10 [If] you extend your soul to the hungry And satisfy the afflicted soul, Then your light shall dawn in the darkness, And your darkness shall [be] as the noonday.

So what did the church leaders do? They went to Brownsville to bring this spirit back to the church! Needless to say, we don't attend there anymore.

The gift of tongues is scriptural and I have seen it used properly and it is very powerful.
No more than 2 or 3 may speak and when done there must be someone to interpret what was said.

I most definitely... believe in the 'cloven' tongue that manifested on Pentecost... but only... in the manner of Acts 2 where we are given a detailed account of how... it manifested.

And per the Greek manuscript alternation in that Acts 2 chapter, it manifested as...

Acts 2:3 - Greek glossa ("tongues", known languages of the world)
Acts 2::4 - glossa ("tongues")
Acts 2:6 - dialektos ("language" - specifically one's dialect or slang of birth)
Acts 2:8 - dialektos ("tongue")
Acts 2:11 - glossa ("tongues")
Acts 2:26 - glossa ("tongue")


That order above is an alternation by The Holy Spirit given the writer of the Book of Acts. That kind of order appears often in all of God's Word, and what it does is help SEAL in the subject and meaning.

So not only did all present on Pentecost hear their 'own' language of birth being spoken by the Apostles, the people even heard them speak in their very own dialects... of where each person was born! For an English speaking person, that's even about the slang of one's area they were born and raised. If from the South it would be you-all, from the North it would be youse-guys, etc. That's how accurate... the true cloven tongue of Pentecost was and... is. God knows how we each speak and hear.


Moreover... in the 1 Corinthians 14 chapter, the KJV word "unknown" in the phrase "unknown tongue" is NOT... in the Greek manuscripts of The New Testament. Instead, only the Greek word 'glossa' is there, which means a known language.



Note the following early verse in 1 Cor.12 below where Apostle Paul first mentioned the idea of 'tongues'...

1 Cor 12:10
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
(KJV)


"divers" (999 added word) "kinds" (genos) "of tongues" (glossa)

Greek 'genos' is the key there, for it means 'kindred, family, stock, offspring'. So Apostle Paul did not say some new sounding tongue that is unlike the known languages of the world. He was specific that it's about the known... family of languages of the various peoples of the world.

Likewise with the last phrase, "interpretation of tongues", it is NOT... about interpreting some new unknown tongue, it is about known... languages of the world. Some have the gift of being able to speak many different languages and intepret also. If 99% of the congregation spoke only English, and someone who speaks only French prophesied, then that would require an interpreter for the English speaking folks present. That's the real meaning in 1 Cor.14.


That is the way the true... cloven tongue manifested to the people at Pentecost, and is still the true way it will manifest today.

If one goes to preach The Gospel to a people of a different language, The Holy Spirit will manifest the preacher's own language of birth into the languages and dialects of birth of ALL... present hearing it, even to their very dialects of birth.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

Ask for what gift?? The gift of uncontrollable shaking of the head and body, uncontrollable laughter, writhing in the floor and making animal noises? running up and down the aisle like a mad man? falling backwards in the floor like Christ's enemies did that came to arrest Jesus? speaking jibberish which none present can understand?


NONE of those manifestations above are of GOD and The Holy Spirit!

JB doesn't have to ask for The Holy Spirit baptism, he already has it. Apostle Paul made it very PLAIN that NOT ALL speak the 'cloven' tongue of Pentecost (which obviously is not the same tongue you claim because the true cloven tongue MUST fit the example in Acts 2). Apostle Paul also listed the VARIOUS administrations divided among the brethren by The Holy Spirit.


One of the EASIEST ways to know one's claim of The Holy Spirit baptism being false is their adherence to the Pre-Trib secret Rapture fly away doctrine of men that began in 1830's Great Britain among those who were having those crazy seducing spirit manifestations in the above. That Pre-Trib secret Rapture doctrine was never a doctrine taught by Christ nor any of His Apostles.

AMEN, Brother. Since I was a boy of 16 the LORD made it plain it was demonic. :)

If 'Trump' thinks he may persuade or convert me over to his position, he should know it would be easier to convert Satan, then try that on me.

I'm Sorry - that you fell for that "Gift of Tongues" ACT. The pastor expected you to hear it - so he let you hear it - and this woman just happened to be there to interpret. Now he has SUCH credibility.
That charlatan act is as old as the hills and yet naive people STILL fall for that act in 2013.

Satan will have his own charlatan acts that will put his to shame.

Indeed, if one sits under or submits to such teaching of these false teachers he has opened himself up to be deceived. Not only are there those who require a sign to believe but those who appear to have been genuinely converted, later received another spirit and therefore another gospel.

Both will end up in the same place.

 

[iamlamad]

I have read only this page of the thread, and have a few short things to comment.

According to Paul in 1 Corinthians 12,

27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?


To those advocating that speaking in tongues is the only sign of a person having been baptised in the Spirit, please correct your view into line with scripture, and start believing it.

To those advocating that speaking in tongues no longer goes on today, as if the Holy Spirit can no longer bring the gift of tongues to those to whom our Lord would give it, please correct your view into line with scripture and start believing it.

Paul says there are tongues, and not everybody gets them.


On veteran's point in the preceding post, it seems to me that anyone who has received the Holy Spirit has also experienced the way He discomfits anything which is opposed to God's order in our lives. Remember when Jesus went into the Temple and started driving out the animals and birds which had been brought into it unnecessarily? Likewise, when the Holy Spirit enters the temple of a person's body, the Lord will begin driving out any other entity (spirit) that has no place in His order.

This is one reason that people whose focus is not the Lord Himself, can receive 'another spirit' at the same time as the Holy Spirit is driving 'another spirit'(s) out of those nearby them in the same meeting. Likewise, a person who already has 'another spirit' may begin manifesting it when the Holy Spirit tries to move on them (or move into them) because the 'other spirit'(s) is protesting.

Sometimes it is wise to leave a person alone, and let them make the important inner choices of their heart without outside interference, but at others, if the Holy Spirit so directs, it may be appropriate to cast out 'another spirit' which is too strong for the person to deal with on their own. Nevertheless, it can be premature to pray for another spirit to depart because of what Jesus taught about it returning with seven other spirits more wicked than itself, should the person not be ready to receive the Holy Spirit, and have Jesus come to sit at his table and eat with Him.

This is not to say that a person who needs deliverance is deliberately engaging in wickedness. They may be in a profound battle for the spiritual integrity of their souls (hearts, minds and bodily peace), which they do understand, but cannot put into words to the outside world. We all need understanding. God is well able to disentangle a person's spiritual attachments, like separating the roots of the weeds from the roots of the plant you want to keep. It can be a hidden process to those watching, but gradually order is restored to the person's being, and this should become observable over time.

The Lord is always refining us, even after we are completely free of 'other spirits'.

28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?


Sorry, but I think you have missed the author's intent here.

What is an apostle? He is a person.
What is a prophet? Again, a person.
What are teachers? Again people.

These are GIFTS of people sent to a body of believes for the perfecting of the saints to the stature of the fulness of Christ.
So what did he mean by "miracles?" he meant PEOPLE who were gifted with the gift of miracles to minister to the body.
Same with gifts of healings. he is speaking of PEOPLE who were gifted with that gift to minister to the body.
Helps are PEOPLE gifted in the helps ministry. A pastor would be very hard up without anyone in the helps ministry helping him.
Governments refer to leaders in the ministry, again PEOPLE.
Diversities of tongues is again speaking of PEOPLE gifted in ministering to the body with the gift of tongues or interpretation of tongues.

So, are all apostles? Certainly not! Only a few people are called into the office of an apostle.
Are all prophets? Again, few people are called into the office of the prophet.
Are all teachers? There are more people in this office than others. Their gifting is as a teacher.
Are all workers of miracles? I have seen few people with the gift of miracles working through them,
Same with gifts of healings. I have seen few PEOPLE with this gift. It is wonderful in operation.
Do all speak with tongues? I have seen a few people use this gift with interpretation to provide great blessing to a local body.
I have seen two or three husband/wife teams as tongues and interpretation that were a great blessing to the body.

Therefore, I submit that this list is speaking of PEOPLE, not specific gifts. It really has nothing at all to do with the tongues Paul speaks of as our prayer language from heaven. EVERYONE should be filled with the spirit and EVERYONE should pray in tongues just as the early church did. We are still in the same dispensation and God did not change.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I see there is GREAT deception concerning the mighty baptism with the Holy Spirit and the SIGN of the baptism, speaking in tongues.

This is the HOLY SPIRIT operating this gift, so be very careful what you say about it. He is not happy when people badmouth Him.

Here is what the word of God says about this:

2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

First note that anyone speaking in tongues is not speaking to me, but to GOD. That blows some theories already written on this thread. Next note that NO MAN UNDERSTANDS him. Again that blows more theories already written on this thread. This also includes the speaker, HE does not understand. Next note that He is speaking "in the Spirit." It is NOT normal conversation that goes through the brain and is understood. It comes from the SPIRIT of man as the Holy Spirit gives the utterance.

In this one verse God has contradicted much of what has been written here about tongues.

3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

Paul is comparing prophecy with tongues in relation to a church service. Prophecy would be in the local language so understood by men. In this case, both would be supernatural speaking, from the Spirit, but one in tongues, the other in the common language.

4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

Now we learn something else about speaking in tongues: it edifies or builds up a believer who is speaking in tongues. However, someone prophesying is building up the local body, for they understand him. In either case there is edification.

5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

Note first of all, Paul (and of course the Holy Spirit who inspired him) wants ALL OF US to speak in tongues. HOW DIFFERENT than the tone of this thread! It seems we have disobedient Christians here. However, Paul votes for all to be edified, not just one, so he goes on to say, he would rather we prophesied (speak supernaturally in our own language, not tongues) One who can speak supernaturally, by the Spirit, in the common language is more valuable to the local body because the entire body can be edified, UNLESS the one speaking in tongues can interpret. then the two are equal. Why is intepretation needed? Because NO MAN UNDERSTANDS.

6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

This is because NO MAN UNDERSTANDS tongues.. of course no one would be profited. But if he speaks in the common language, everyone is edified.

7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?

Because NO MAN UNDERSTANDS tongues! There is not distinction of sound to be understood.

8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?

If someone is preparing for battle there MUST BE a distinction of sound so warriors know what to do.

9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

tongues are NOT "easy to be understood," for NO MAN UNDERSTANDS.

10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification

Every language has significance for people that can understand it. But for tongues, NO MAN UNDERSTANDS.

11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.

Tongues used in a service of believers with no interpreter makes no sense; for NO MAN UNDERSTANDS.

12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

We should be zealous for the gift of prophecy, and the other gifts of the spirit, so we can edify the church. Tongues is the least of the gifts, for NO MAN UNDERSTANDS. But it DOES edify the speaker.

13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

Paul is telling all who pray in tongues to pray for the interpretation of tongues. It sounds easy, but it comes by faith, the same as anything else.

14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Note again, this is our SPIRIT praying, not our brain or mind. Why? NO MAN UNDERSTANDS. Not even the one praying. Note, EVEN PAUL said He did not understand. It seems then that EVEN PAUL did not interpret all of His tongues.

15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

Paul is very clear there, there are TWO KINDS of praying; praying with the mind and with the understanding, and praying in the spirit with NO UNDERSTANDING. So Paul said he does BOTH KINDS of praying. Remember, the verse before said HIS, Paul's, understanding was unfruitful. So he spends time praying in Greek and then spends time praying in the spirit in tongues WITH NO UNDERSTANDING. HE sings the same very way.

16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

If someone prays in tongues to start a service, how can anyone know what is prayed, for NO MAN UNDERSTANDS. It seems most do not get the gift of interpretation.

17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

It is a good prayer! ANY prayer in tongues is always a perfect prayer for the time, for it is the HOLY SPIRIT CREATING the prayer. However, NO MAN UNDERSTANDS. It is a prayer to GOD, not to men.

18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

So WHERE did Paul do all his praying in tongues? Of course, ALONE in his prayer closet.

20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.

Paul is telling us we NEED to grow up and understand this! Yet it is obvious, few do.

So HOW do we put this together with what happened in Acts 2? According to Paul, when they spoke in tongues, they were speaking to GOD, not to man, and NO MAN UNDERSTANDS.

It is very simple, God gave an ADDED MIRACLE on that day, and every man HEARD in his own language. The 120 praying in tongues were NOT speaking all those earthly languages, because NO MAN UNDERSTANDS and they were speaking to GOD, not to man. But God opened their EARS to HEAR in their own language.

Bottom line? God did not SUGGEST we be filled with the spirit, it was a COMMAND. Many believers want to SKIP Acts 1 and 2 and move on WITHOUT this gift.

Did you ever see a real Picasso or perhaps a Remington? They are masterpieces, and famous for being masterpieces.

Ask yourself, WHY DON'T I SPEAK IN TONGUES?

Your answer is a masterpiece of deception from the enemy. He has painted a masterpiece for you, and you took it, hook, line and sinker.

Next, ask yourself, could I say to another believer what Paul ask?

Have you received the Holy Spirit SINCE you believed?

Lamad

 

[Trumpeter]

28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?


Sorry, but I think you have missed the author's intent here.

What is an apostle? He is a person.
What is a prophet? Again, a person.
What are teachers? Again people.

These are GIFTS of people sent to a body of believes for the perfecting of the saints to the stature of the fulness of Christ.
So what did he mean by "miracles?" he meant PEOPLE who were gifted with the gift of miracles to minister to the body.
Same with gifts of healings. he is speaking of PEOPLE who were gifted with that gift to minister to the body.
Helps are PEOPLE gifted in the helps ministry. A pastor would be very hard up without anyone in the helps ministry helping him.
Governments refer to leaders in the ministry, again PEOPLE.
Diversities of tongues is again speaking of PEOPLE gifted in ministering to the body with the gift of tongues or interpretation of tongues.

So, are all apostles? Certainly not! Only a few people are called into the office of an apostle.
Are all prophets? Again, few people are called into the office of the prophet.
Are all teachers? There are more people in this office than others. Their gifting is as a teacher.
Are all workers of miracles? I have seen few people with the gift of miracles working through them,
Same with gifts of healings. I have seen few PEOPLE with this gift. It is wonderful in operation.
Do all speak with tongues? I have seen a few people use this gift with interpretation to provide great blessing to a local body.
I have seen two or three husband/wife teams as tongues and interpretation that were a great blessing to the body.

Therefore, I submit that this list is speaking of PEOPLE, not specific gifts. It really has nothing at all to do with the tongues Paul speaks of as our prayer language from heaven. EVERYONE should be filled with the spirit and EVERYONE should pray in tongues just as the early church did. We are still in the same dispensation and God did not change.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I see there is GREAT deception concerning the mighty baptism with the Holy Spirit and the SIGN of the baptism, speaking in tongues.

This is the HOLY SPIRIT operating this gift, so be very careful what you say about it. He is not happy when people badmouth Him.

Here is what the word of God says about this:

2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

First note that anyone speaking in tongues is not speaking to me, but to GOD. That blows some theories already written on this thread. Next note that NO MAN UNDERSTANDS him. Again that blows more theories already written on this thread. This also includes the speaker, HE does not understand. Next note that He is speaking "in the Spirit." It is NOT normal conversation that goes through the brain and is understood. It comes from the SPIRIT of man as the Holy Spirit gives the utterance.

In this one verse God has contradicted much of what has been written here about tongues.

3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

Paul is comparing prophecy with tongues in relation to a church service. Prophecy would be in the local language so understood by men. In this case, both would be supernatural speaking, from the Spirit, but one in tongues, the other in the common language.

4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

Now we learn something else about speaking in tongues: it edifies or builds up a believer who is speaking in tongues. However, someone prophesying is building up the local body, for they understand him. In either case there is edification.

5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

Note first of all, Paul (and of course the Holy Spirit who inspired him) wants ALL OF US to speak in tongues. HOW DIFFERENT than the tone of this thread! It seems we have disobedient Christians here. However, Paul votes for all to be edified, not just one, so he goes on to say, he would rather we prophesied (speak supernaturally in our own language, not tongues) One who can speak supernaturally, by the Spirit, in the common language is more valuable to the local body because the entire body can be edified, UNLESS the one speaking in tongues can interpret. then the two are equal. Why is intepretation needed? Because NO MAN UNDERSTANDS.

6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

This is because NO MAN UNDERSTANDS tongues.. of course no one would be profited. But if he speaks in the common language, everyone is edified.

7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?

Because NO MAN UNDERSTANDS tongues! There is not distinction of sound to be understood.

8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?

If someone is preparing for battle there MUST BE a distinction of sound so warriors know what to do.

9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

tongues are NOT "easy to be understood," for NO MAN UNDERSTANDS.

10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification

Every language has significance for people that can understand it. But for tongues, NO MAN UNDERSTANDS.

11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.

Tongues used in a service of believers with no interpreter makes no sense; for NO MAN UNDERSTANDS.

12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

We should be zealous for the gift of prophecy, and the other gifts of the spirit, so we can edify the church. Tongues is the least of the gifts, for NO MAN UNDERSTANDS. But it DOES edify the speaker.

13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

Paul is telling all who pray in tongues to pray for the interpretation of tongues. It sounds easy, but it comes by faith, the same as anything else.

14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Note again, this is our SPIRIT praying, not our brain or mind. Why? NO MAN UNDERSTANDS. Not even the one praying. Note, EVEN PAUL said He did not understand. It seems then that EVEN PAUL did not interpret all of His tongues.

15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

Paul is very clear there, there are TWO KINDS of praying; praying with the mind and with the understanding, and praying in the spirit with NO UNDERSTANDING. So Paul said he does BOTH KINDS of praying. Remember, the verse before said HIS, Paul's, understanding was unfruitful. So he spends time praying in Greek and then spends time praying in the spirit in tongues WITH NO UNDERSTANDING. HE sings the same very way.

16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

If someone prays in tongues to start a service, how can anyone know what is prayed, for NO MAN UNDERSTANDS. It seems most do not get the gift of interpretation.

17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

It is a good prayer! ANY prayer in tongues is always a perfect prayer for the time, for it is the HOLY SPIRIT CREATING the prayer. However, NO MAN UNDERSTANDS. It is a prayer to GOD, not to men.

18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

So WHERE did Paul do all his praying in tongues? Of course, ALONE in his prayer closet.

20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.

Paul is telling us we NEED to grow up and understand this! Yet it is obvious, few do.

So HOW do we put this together with what happened in Acts 2? According to Paul, when they spoke in tongues, they were speaking to GOD, not to man, and NO MAN UNDERSTANDS.

It is very simple, God gave an ADDED MIRACLE on that day, and every man HEARD in his own language. The 120 praying in tongues were NOT speaking all those earthly languages, because NO MAN UNDERSTANDS and they were speaking to GOD, not to man. But God opened their EARS to HEAR in their own language.

Bottom line? God did not SUGGEST we be filled with the spirit, it was a COMMAND. Many believers want to SKIP Acts 1 and 2 and move on WITHOUT this gift.

Did you ever see a real Picasso or perhaps a Remington? They are masterpieces, and famous for being masterpieces.

Ask yourself, WHY DON'T I SPEAK IN TONGUES?

Your answer is a masterpiece of deception from the enemy. He has painted a masterpiece for you, and you took it, hook, line and sinker.

Next, ask yourself, could I say to another believer what Paul ask?

Have you received the Holy Spirit SINCE you believed?

Lamad

Amen Lamad,

That was a very good exegesis.


1Cr 14:37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.

1Cr 14:38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.

1Cr 14:39 Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues.

1Cr 14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order.

God bless.

 

[veteran]

OK, we've heard the Pre-Trib 'fly away' preacher version of 1 Cor.14, now the proper version...

1 Cor 14:1-33
1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

Paul's meaning of "prophesy" here means to... teach, preach under influence of The Holy Spirit with 'understandable' words.

2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Strike the word "unknown" there, it is not in the Greek NT manuscripts. The word "tongue" is Greek 'glossa' which means a known language of the world. Someone speaking a foreign language no one present can understand has to be speaking to God only, for only God would understand. Even with speaking mysteries by The Spirit only God would understand because other's lack of understanding the foreign language.

That's why if one speaks a foreign language no one present understands, that one is not speaking unto men, but to God only.

3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

One that does what? One that "prophesieth" speaks unto men to edify, exhort, and comfort. So right here in these first verses of 1 Cor.14 Paul is stressing the idea of teaching-preaching with understanding under influence of The Spirit as the meaning to prophesy. That is the opposite of speaking a gibberish that no one present can understand, and it is the opposite... idea of those who claim speaking the gibberish tongue is prophesying! It is not prophesying, because Apostle Paul clearly defined... what it means to prophesy right here in these first verses, to speak unto men "to edification, and exhortation, and comfort."

Paul will continue to explain what it means to prophesy...

4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

One speaking a foreign language none present can understand only edifies himself, simply because no one there would understand what is spoken. But one that "prophesieth" (preach-teach with known words) is how the church, the congregation, is edified. That means with known, understandable words the congregation can understand.

5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

Again, Paul makes a distinction between speaking in a foreign language vs. prophesying in understandable speech. The KJV translators put 'glossa' in the plural here as "tongues". That's not about some special unknown tongue idea.

6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

Notice Paul is teaching about the idea of known languages of the world, not the cloven tongue of Pentecost. Once again he compares the difference between speaking a foreign language one can't understand vs. preaching by revelation, knowledge, doctrine by prophesying.

But I thought to prophesy meant speaking an unknown tongue that requires an interpreter? Nope, not what Paul was teaching here. He was teaching about foreign languages other than the one of your natural birth.


7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?

A flute or harp has its own kind of sound. That's why when you hear a flute played you know its a flute and not something else. It has its own distinct sound.

8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?

If troops in battle formation are ready for the call of the trumpet to move, and the troops cannot distinguish the sound of that trumpet, it will confuse them; they won't recognize the uncertain sound. That's all Paul is saying there.

9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

Likewise when speaking in a foreign language with words no one can understand, how can others know what is said? That one speaking will be just speaking hot air.

10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.

The Gree word for "voices" here is 'phone', it's means tones. The various tones in the world are all distinct and each has its own signification or purpose.

11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.

In Paul's day and the early Church, the idea of a "barbarian" was used for a foreigner. So once again, Paul is talking about the different languages of different peoples in the world here, not some unknown tongue.

12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

So if you're zealous of spiritual gifts, seek to prophesy in understandable speech, for that's how Paul defined the idea of prophesying in the previous verses. To prophesy means speaking understandable words under influence of The Holy Spirit. And that's HOW the cloven tongue of Pentecost manifested to the multitude present, each hearing the Apostles speak in their very dialect of birth about "the wonderful works of God" (Acts 2:11).

13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

If you go into a congregation that doesn't know your own language, then Paul says to pray that you may be able to interpret what you've said to the other languages of those present, so they can understand.

14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Even if we pray in a foreign language we ourselves don't understand (yes, it can be done), we won't understand it, so our spirit only is praying. That's done simply by asking one of another language how to say in their language... something like The Lord's Prayer. If you don't speak German, and ask someone who does how to say it in that language, you won't understand what the words mean, but your spirit will know though.

15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

What Paul is actually saying there is that BOTH...the understanding and spirit go TOGETHER when praying and singing. Sing a hymn in a foreign language you don't know and your 'understanding' is not there also.

16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

Otherwise, if you prayed in spirit only, HOW would others in the room understand and know when to say Amen?

17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

You would be giving thanks for yourself only, and no others present would be edified. So do you see Paul is teaching here about 'understanding' with known and understandable words, and not some unknown tongue?

18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

Paul was a Hebrew scholar and he spoke the street Greek of the people, and Aramaic. He spoke several known languages of the world, and that's what he was talking about there.

19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

Obviously, ten thousand words in a foreign language no one present could understand would be useless to those there. Better to speak the known language of those present so you can... do what? Prophesy, preach, teach, so the congregation will understand what you're saying.

20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.

That's a big comparison there Paul gives. Don't be like little children with this idea of understanding, as children get into bits of trouble when they're growing up, but instead be men with understanding. In other words, don't go babeling like little children do when they're growing up, but instead be mature and act like men. Paul is actually comparing child's speech with the speech of men.

21 In the law it is written, "With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord."

Where was that written? Isaiah 28:11-12. That word "tongues" there is definitley plural, about known languages of the world. During Judah's Babylon captivity, they started using Aramaic instead of Hebrew. And their captors spoke different languages than Hebrew.

22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

What the Apostles were given to do on Pentecost with speaking and everyone present heard in their own language and dialects of birth, is a sign for the unbeliever.

Is speaking some claimed unknown tongue the unbelievers can't understand a sign? No. Why not? Because per the Acts 2 example of the cloven tongue, it was how the multitude well knew Galileans (Apostles) were speaking in everyone's language of birth, and the people KNEW... the Apostles could not have studied and learned all those languages then. it was SO... accurate that the people marveled how the Apostles even spoke the very dialects of their villages of birth!

That would be like going into the most remotest region of the Amazon among a lost people, and speaking their dialect perfectly as if you had lived there all your life! Don't you think the natives there would recognize you were not one of them, and hadn't lived with them to learn their language that accurately?? THAT's the sign for the unbeliever.

But prophesying (preaching-teaching in understandable words) is for the Church.

23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

Paul is speaking of known languages here. Know how we can be sure of that? Because he uses the idea there of "unlearned". The true cloven tongue of Pentecost is NOT... something that is learned. But known languages of the world are learned. So if an unbeliever goes into a Church where everyone is speaking a different language all at once, they would think it madness.

24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

But if you prophesy (preach-teach with understandable words), then the unbeliever will understand and be converted.

26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

Once again, the word "tongue" there is Greek glossa, meaning known languages of the world. So Paul is NOT... speaking of someone that wants to stand up and speak gibberish to the congregation. He's talking about members of the body with different languages that have an understanding to impart to the members, or a song, etc. That is done every time Church members gather together, they share with each other what God has shown them in Bible study, they share their experiences of God working in their lives, etc.

27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

If someone has something to edify the congregation, let them speak and let one interpret after each one. In Paul's days, that was very important, since many within the congregation spoke different languages, and there was need for it to be interpreted.

28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

But if there is none that can interpret the language spoken, those were to keep silent. Is that what happens within churches today that claim an unknown tongue? No. And definitely not in the Kundalini manifestation churches.

29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

Is Paul saying let those with an unknown tongue speak? No. If you paid attention to the first part of this chapter you should well know by now that to prophesy means to speak in a known language the congregation can understand to edify and teach with the understanding.

32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
(KJV)

Thus in the authentic Christian Church, order and peace is always... present, not acts of confusion, nor speaking in confusion.

 

[Rex]

Ask for what gift?? The gift of uncontrollable shaking of the head and body, uncontrollable laughter, writhing in the floor and making animal noises? running up and down the aisle like a mad man? falling backwards in the floor like Christ's enemies did that came to arrest Jesus? speaking jibberish which none present can understand?


NONE of those manifestations above are of GOD and The Holy Spirit!

If I'm understanding you correctly this is how house cleaning looks before the HS moves in?

On veteran's point in the preceding post, it seems to me that anyone who has received the Holy Spirit has also experienced the way He discomfits anything which is opposed to God's order in our lives. Remember when Jesus went into the Temple and started driving out the animals and birds which had been brought into it unnecessarily? Likewise, when the Holy Spirit enters the temple of a person's body, the Lord will begin driving out any other entity (spirit) that has no place in His order.

This is one reason that people whose focus is not the Lord Himself, can receive 'another spirit' at the same time as the Holy Spirit is driving 'another spirit'(s) out of those nearby them in the same meeting. Likewise, a person who already has 'another spirit' may begin manifesting it when the Holy Spirit tries to move on them (or move into them) because the 'other spirit'(s) is protesting.

I'll be quite honest, I look at anyone that professes to be a charismatic or pentecostal with an eye of speculation. I have met some in person and the sharing of Gods word was a pleasant experience. But for the most part it's like winding the crank on one of those music boxes. As a child you learn by cranking the handle and listening, just when to box is going to open, but in the case of spirits flying around, theatrics going on and all manner of prophets with the latest revelations and spirits of discernment and knowledge, it begins to look like a spiritual circus, you simply don't know whats going to pop out of the box next. In that, I think thats what keeps Pentecostals interested.
It's like, lets crank it up and see what pops up next. The throwing themselves down, running around, speaking gibberish, repetitious chanting ect ect ect is nothing more than cranking the box IMO.

This is the kids toy I'm referring to

I don't understand pentecostal worship at all
and now I apologize to those Pentecostals offended, you may very well be firmly rooted in Christ and what I said may not apply to you at all.
but your salvation is not dependent on the flavor of church you choose to arm band yourself with. The only thing your doing is telling everyone my church is right we have salvation, but at the same time you make yourself vulnerable to criticisms by the actions and teachings of others "your church".
When you tell someone you believe and follow Jesus that is fine and dandy but as soon as you tell someone I'm "your church here" you have tainted your testimony with every thing negative or otherwise they have ever heard about that church. Were a world full of people that love pigeon holes, and Satan is loving every minute of it.

We see in the NT where Paul might say and I am sending so and so please accept him as a brother.
Today we have replaced this greeting with this, "I'd like you to meet Joe hes a church name here he's a brother in the Lord"
The church as we define and know it today can never be a letter of recommendation nor should it ever become a source of truth or salvation, but that's what it has become. You see how we have become denominational orientated instead of personally orientated in Christ.

Have you ever noticed that in the NT and old when the church, be it in what ever province is addressed it is nearly always accompanied with chastisement, warnings. Why then do people insist on clothing themselves in a church is beyond me, because once you do so you can't remove the testimony you have just covered yourself in. What a wonderful way for the enemy to make your testimony of no value, or to taint it with error and misconception it doesn't matter whether these per-conceptions are the truth or not, you just covered yourself with it. Isn't it enough to cover ourselves with Christ and go into the world that hates him, do we also have to cover ourselves with the fitly garments of men and women called a church.

 

[veteran]

If I'm understanding you correctly this is how house cleaning looks before the HS moves in?

The manifestations of uncontrollable shaking of the head, uncontrollable laughter, falling backwards in the floor, writhing in the floor, making animal noises, speaking gibberish...

ALL of those things are CLAIMED by Charismatics to be 'signs' of HAVING RECEIVED... THE HOLY SPIRIT!

To make it easy, they claim THOSE very manifestations are... directly FROM The Holy Spirit!


That's why what dragonfly suggested doesn't really work, for they are NOT claiming those manifestations as examples of cleaning one's house so The Holy Spirit can come into the person, they're claiming those manifestions ARE THE HOLY SPIRIT MANIFESTING THROUGH THE PERSON.

 

[iamlamad]

OK, we've heard the Pre-Trib 'fly away' preacher version of 1 Cor.14, now the proper version...

1 Cor 14:1-33
1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

Paul's meaning of "prophesy" here means to... teach, preach under influence of The Holy Spirit with 'understandable' words.

2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Strike the word "unknown" there, it is not in the Greek NT manuscripts. The word "tongue" is Greek 'glossa' which means a known language of the world. Someone speaking a foreign language no one present can understand has to be speaking to God only, for only God would understand. Even with speaking mysteries by The Spirit only God would understand because other's lack of understanding the foreign language.

That's why if one speaks a foreign language no one present understands, that one is not speaking unto men, but to God only.

3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

One that does what? One that "prophesieth" speaks unto men to edify, exhort, and comfort. So right here in these first verses of 1 Cor.14 Paul is stressing the idea of teaching-preaching with understanding under influence of The Spirit as the meaning to prophesy. That is the opposite of speaking a gibberish that no one present can understand, and it is the opposite... idea of those who claim speaking the gibberish tongue is prophesying! It is not prophesying, because Apostle Paul clearly defined... what it means to prophesy right here in these first verses, to speak unto men "to edification, and exhortation, and comfort."

Paul will continue to explain what it means to prophesy...

4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

One speaking a foreign language none present can understand only edifies himself, simply because no one there would understand what is spoken. But one that "prophesieth" (preach-teach with known words) is how the church, the congregation, is edified. That means with known, understandable words the congregation can understand.

5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

Again, Paul makes a distinction between speaking in a foreign language vs. prophesying in understandable speech. The KJV translators put 'glossa' in the plural here as "tongues". That's not about some special unknown tongue idea.

6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

Notice Paul is teaching about the idea of known languages of the world, not the cloven tongue of Pentecost. Once again he compares the difference between speaking a foreign language one can't understand vs. preaching by revelation, knowledge, doctrine by prophesying.

But I thought to prophesy meant speaking an unknown tongue that requires an interpreter? Nope, not what Paul was teaching here. He was teaching about foreign languages other than the one of your natural birth.


7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?

A flute or harp has its own kind of sound. That's why when you hear a flute played you know its a flute and not something else. It has its own distinct sound.

8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?

If troops in battle formation are ready for the call of the trumpet to move, and the troops cannot distinguish the sound of that trumpet, it will confuse them; they won't recognize the uncertain sound. That's all Paul is saying there.

9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

Likewise when speaking in a foreign language with words no one can understand, how can others know what is said? That one speaking will be just speaking hot air.

10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.

The Gree word for "voices" here is 'phone', it's means tones. The various tones in the world are all distinct and each has its own signification or purpose.

11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.

In Paul's day and the early Church, the idea of a "barbarian" was used for a foreigner. So once again, Paul is talking about the different languages of different peoples in the world here, not some unknown tongue.

12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

So if you're zealous of spiritual gifts, seek to prophesy in understandable speech, for that's how Paul defined the idea of prophesying in the previous verses. To prophesy means speaking understandable words under influence of The Holy Spirit. And that's HOW the cloven tongue of Pentecost manifested to the multitude present, each hearing the Apostles speak in their very dialect of birth about "the wonderful works of God" (Acts 2:11).

13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

If you go into a congregation that doesn't know your own language, then Paul says to pray that you may be able to interpret what you've said to the other languages of those present, so they can understand.

14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Even if we pray in a foreign language we ourselves don't understand (yes, it can be done), we won't understand it, so our spirit only is praying. That's done simply by asking one of another language how to say in their language... something like The Lord's Prayer. If you don't speak German, and ask someone who does how to say it in that language, you won't understand what the words mean, but your spirit will know though.

15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

What Paul is actually saying there is that BOTH...the understanding and spirit go TOGETHER when praying and singing. Sing a hymn in a foreign language you don't know and your 'understanding' is not there also.

16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

Otherwise, if you prayed in spirit only, HOW would others in the room understand and know when to say Amen?

17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

You would be giving thanks for yourself only, and no others present would be edified. So do you see Paul is teaching here about 'understanding' with known and understandable words, and not some unknown tongue?

18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

Paul was a Hebrew scholar and he spoke the street Greek of the people, and Aramaic. He spoke several known languages of the world, and that's what he was talking about there.

19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

Obviously, ten thousand words in a foreign language no one present could understand would be useless to those there. Better to speak the known language of those present so you can... do what? Prophesy, preach, teach, so the congregation will understand what you're saying.

20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.

That's a big comparison there Paul gives. Don't be like little children with this idea of understanding, as children get into bits of trouble when they're growing up, but instead be men with understanding. In other words, don't go babeling like little children do when they're growing up, but instead be mature and act like men. Paul is actually comparing child's speech with the speech of men.

21 In the law it is written, "With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord."

Where was that written? Isaiah 28:11-12. That word "tongues" there is definitley plural, about known languages of the world. During Judah's Babylon captivity, they started using Aramaic instead of Hebrew. And their captors spoke different languages than Hebrew.

22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

What the Apostles were given to do on Pentecost with speaking and everyone present heard in their own language and dialects of birth, is a sign for the unbeliever.

Is speaking some claimed unknown tongue the unbelievers can't understand a sign? No. Why not? Because per the Acts 2 example of the cloven tongue, it was how the multitude well knew Galileans (Apostles) were speaking in everyone's language of birth, and the people KNEW... the Apostles could not have studied and learned all those languages then. it was SO... accurate that the people marveled how the Apostles even spoke the very dialects of their villages of birth!

That would be like going into the most remotest region of the Amazon among a lost people, and speaking their dialect perfectly as if you had lived there all your life! Don't you think the natives there would recognize you were not one of them, and hadn't lived with them to learn their language that accurately?? THAT's the sign for the unbeliever.

But prophesying (preaching-teaching in understandable words) is for the Church.

23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

Paul is speaking of known languages here. Know how we can be sure of that? Because he uses the idea there of "unlearned". The true cloven tongue of Pentecost is NOT... something that is learned. But known languages of the world are learned. So if an unbeliever goes into a Church where everyone is speaking a different language all at once, they would think it madness.

24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

But if you prophesy (preach-teach with understandable words), then the unbeliever will understand and be converted.

26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

Once again, the word "tongue" there is Greek glossa, meaning known languages of the world. So Paul is NOT... speaking of someone that wants to stand up and speak gibberish to the congregation. He's talking about members of the body with different languages that have an understanding to impart to the members, or a song, etc. That is done every time Church members gather together, they share with each other what God has shown them in Bible study, they share their experiences of God working in their lives, etc.

27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

If someone has something to edify the congregation, let them speak and let one interpret after each one. In Paul's days, that was very important, since many within the congregation spoke different languages, and there was need for it to be interpreted.

28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

But if there is none that can interpret the language spoken, those were to keep silent. Is that what happens within churches today that claim an unknown tongue? No. And definitely not in the Kundalini manifestation churches.

29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

Is Paul saying let those with an unknown tongue speak? No. If you paid attention to the first part of this chapter you should well know by now that to prophesy means to speak in a known language the congregation can understand to edify and teach with the understanding.

32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
(KJV)

Thus in the authentic Christian Church, order and peace is always... present, not acts of confusion, nor speaking in confusion.

OK, readers, here is the question: you need open-heart surgery to save your life. One doctor who has done a hundred of these surgeries wants to do yours, and charge you $100,000.

Another doctor has never done even ONE open-heart surgery, but tells you he has read the books and is confident he can do it right - he tells you he will do it for $50,000.

So, WHICH doctor would you choose?

I have been praying in the Spirit since 1966. I know from experience that tongues are UNKNOWN to the hearer and to the speaker, for it is the Holy Spirit that gives the utterance. HE creates the words and the mouth speaks the words out, bypassing the brain or mind entirely. OF COURSE if someone has never received this baptism with the Holy Spirit, with the evidence of speaking in tongues, they will not understand this. Veteran has used his human understanding, and it this case it has fallen short, as it usually does.

Paul knew EXACTLY what he was talking about here: he that "speakes in a tongue speaks not unto men, but unto God: for no man understands him; howbeit in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

Veteran missed this part, NO MAN, anywhere on the planet understands, because it is NOT an earthly language: it is the Holy Spirit that creates it. He is speaking "mysteries" for that same reason, it is a HEAVENLY, GODLY language.

God the Holy Spirit creates the utterance: "they...began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

This is speaking or praying IN THE SPIRIT: For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Readers, understand, this is supernatural speech, not normal speech, for normal speech goes through the mind and thoughts are thought first and then spoken. For tongues or prophecy, the mind is bypassed and the utterance comes from the Holy Spirit to the human spirit to the mouth to be spoken out. It is entirely supernatural. No wonder Paul said the understanding is unfruitful: because it is a heavenly language and NO MAN (anywhere on the planet) understands. I will give an example. Once I was called up to lead the church in prayer for a certain thing. I started out with my mind and got maybe two or three words out with my understanding, when suddenly the Holy Spirit took over, and I prayed the rest of the prayer out (in English) WITHOUT my understanding. This utterance came straight from the Holy Spirit to my spirit to my mouth. I did not know what I was going to say until I heard the words that I spoke. It was a prophecy prayer; in my own language but supernatural.

Paul knew exactly what He was talking about, for he prayed in tongues (praying mysteries in the Spirit) more than all the rest.
A prayer in the spirit is "unfruitful" to the mind because it DOES NOT ORIGINATE in the mind, but in the Spirit by the Holy Spirit.

We should understand, ANY prayer in the Spirit is a perfect prayer for that time and place, because it comes from God the Holy Spirit that understands us more than we do, and knows EXACTLY what to pray. So He created the sounds, and attaches MEANING to the sounds as it is passed to the mouth to be spoken. God the Father (and Jesus) is the ONLY OTHER that understands what was prayed, for HE CREATED it. God the Father then answers these prayers just as He answers any other prayer.

This is a gift for ALL BELIEVERS. It is free and comes when one receives the mighty baptism with the Holy Spirit. It is not to be scoffed at or made fun of, for it is the Holy Spirit. It is not nice to make fun of the Holy Spirit! It is dangerous!

Lamad.

 

[Trumpeter]

OK, readers, here is the question: you need open-heart surgery to save your life. One doctor who has done a hundred of these surgeries wants to do yours, and charge you $100,000.

Another doctor has never done even ONE open-heart surgery, but tells you he has read the books and is confident he can do it right - he tells you he will do it for $50,000.

So, WHICH doctor would you choose?

I have been praying in the Spirit since 1966. I know from experience that tongues are UNKNOWN to the hearer and to the speaker, for it is the Holy Spirit that gives the utterance. HE creates the words and the mouth speaks the words out, bypassing the brain or mind entirely. OF COURSE if someone has never received this baptism with the Holy Spirit, with the evidence of speaking in tongues, they will not understand this. Veteran has used his human understanding, and it this case it has fallen short, as it usually does.

Paul knew EXACTLY what he was talking about here: he that "speakes in a tongue speaks not unto men, but unto God: for no man understands him; howbeit in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

Veteran missed this part, NO MAN, anywhere on the planet understands, because it is NOT an earthly language: it is the Holy Spirit that creates it. He is speaking "mysteries" for that same reason, it is a HEAVENLY, GODLY language.

God the Holy Spirit creates the utterance: "they...began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

This is speaking or praying IN THE SPIRIT: For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Readers, understand, this is supernatural speech, not normal speech, for normal speech goes through the mind and thoughts are thought first and then spoken. For tongues or prophecy, the mind is bypassed and the utterance comes from the Holy Spirit to the human spirit to the mouth to be spoken out. It is entirely supernatural. No wonder Paul said the understanding is unfruitful: because it is a heavenly language and NO MAN (anywhere on the planet) understands. I will give an example. Once I was called up to lead the church in prayer for a certain thing. I started out with my mind and got maybe two or three words out with my understanding, when suddenly the Holy Spirit took over, and I prayed the rest of the prayer out (in English) WITHOUT my understanding. This utterance came straight from the Holy Spirit to my spirit to my mouth. I did not know what I was going to say until I heard the words that I spoke. It was a prophecy prayer; in my own language but supernatural.

Paul knew exactly what He was talking about, for he prayed in tongues (praying mysteries in the Spirit) more than all the rest.
A prayer in the spirit is "unfruitful" to the mind because it DOES NOT ORIGINATE in the mind, but in the Spirit by the Holy Spirit.

We should understand, ANY prayer in the Spirit is a perfect prayer for that time and place, because it comes from God the Holy Spirit that understands us more than we do, and knows EXACTLY what to pray. So He created the sounds, and attaches MEANING to the sounds as it is passed to the mouth to be spoken. God the Father (and Jesus) is the ONLY OTHER that understands what was prayed, for HE CREATED it. God the Father then answers these prayers just as He answers any other prayer.

This is a gift for ALL BELIEVERS. It is free and comes when one receives the mighty baptism with the Holy Spirit. It is not to be scoffed at or made fun of, for it is the Holy Spirit. It is not nice to make fun of the Holy Spirit! It is dangerous!

Lamad.

Amen +1

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Lamad.

...

I have been praying in the Spirit since 1966. I know from experience that tongues are UNKNOWN to the hearer and to the speaker, for it is the Holy Spirit that gives the utterance. HE creates the words and the mouth speaks the words out, bypassing the brain or mind entirely. OF COURSE if someone has never received this baptism with the Holy Spirit, with the evidence of speaking in tongues, they will not understand this. Veteran has used his human understanding, and it this case it has fallen short, as it usually does.

Paul knew EXACTLY what he was talking about here: he that "speaks in a tongue speaks not unto men, but unto God: for no man understands him; howbeit in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

Veteran missed this part, NO MAN, anywhere on the planet understands, because it is NOT an earthly language: it is the Holy Spirit that creates it. He is speaking "mysteries" for that same reason, it is a HEAVENLY, GODLY language.

...

Lamad.

This is the part that scares me. I agree with Veteran here.

There's no such thing as a "HEAVENLY, GODLY language!" What would be the point? When Yeshua` spoke to Paul from the sky (from "heaven"), He spoke to him in the HEBREW TONGUE, the HEBREW LANGUAGE! (Acts 26:14)

My dad was a Baptist minister and he and a missionary friend to Zaire, Africa, a close friend of his, visited the only "Christian" church in a small town, which happened to be charismatic, for someplace to go to church on a Sunday. When the preacher began to speak in an "unknown" tongue, my dad's missionary friend whispered to my dad that he was speaking in a particular dialect of the Congo, and he said that he was saying the most blasphemous, filthy, and outrageous things a person could speak in that language! They high-tailed it out of there as soon as they could!

If God is omniscient (and He is), then He knows our THOUGHTS! We don't need some "HEAVENLY, GODLY language" to communicate with Him! The SPIRIT ITSELF interprets our thoughts with "groanings which CANNOT be uttered!"

We need to be on guard against the trickery and deceit of haSatan AT ALL TIMES! We cannot allow ourselves the luxury of letting our guard down! The great deceiver will find any excuse he can to discredit God's people! God doesn't WANT us to "bypass our brains or minds!" He wants us to USE our minds!

It's always fascinated me how people who quote Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 14:2 don't continue the quote!


1 Corinthians 14:1-19
1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.
12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.
18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
KJV

Seems pretty clear to me. Speaking in a foreign language (tongue) needs to be UNDERSTOOD! If you can't tell someone what you said, then WHAT GOOD IS IT?! If it can't be understood, it is futile - pointless - empty - VAIN! And, Paul was not advocating speaking in tongues as much as he was advocating PROPHESYING, which we call "preaching" today!

 

[PeterAV]

The prupose is that God removes His own so that he can do battle without injuring or killing His own when he comes to destroy them which destroy the earth. Every government removes their citizens from an area they are about to invade and so will the Lord. He does it for our protection. He doesn't remove us from tribulation. He removes us from Armageddon!



Can't you see that it's salvation and not a rapture that averts God's wrath? And you say you haven't added or changed anything!

Again. What a bunch of fabrication, contradiction and complications. It's really sad to see people like you and the rest of your camp as well as the pre-trib camp so blatantly deceived. God help you come out of denial and see the truth.

*******
Amen Kaoticprofit,
The statement that stuck out was:"He doesn't remove us from tribulation. He removes us from Armageddon!"
This 100% Bible truth. And so few get it, even in the post tribulation camp.
All one needs to do is look at Revelation 13 and 14 to get a chronological account of the end times.
*******
Beast rises. Revelation 1 3:1
Power given unto him for 3.5 years. Revelation 1 3:5
Beast blasphemes God. Revelation 1 3:6
Beast wages war against saints. Revelation 1 3:7
False Prophet rises. Revelation 1 3:11-18
Vision of 144,000. Revelation 1 4:1-5
Angel declares God's judgment has come. Revelation 1 4:7*=1st Vial cf. Revelation 1 5:4
Angel declares Babylon is fallen. Revelation 1 4:8* Last vial cf. Revelation 1 6:17,19
Angel declares those with mark
will drink of the wine of the
wrath of God poured into his cup. Revelation 1 4:9-10* Last vial, as above.
Son of man on cloud reaps earth. Revelation 1 4:14-16= resurrection
Angel gathers wicked. Revelation 1 4:19
Winepress is trodden. Revelation 1 4:20= Armageddon
*******
So simple when the Bible is the final authority instead of mortal men's opinions.
*******
PeterAV
Every word of God is pure:

 

[michaelvpardo]

No, it is not that at all. Many readers come and read, some trying to learn the truth. If pretribbers were not here posting, there WOULD BE NO TRUTH here.

Lamad

Hey Lamad, get over yourself. Those of us who believe that the church will be protected through the tribulation, with many also dieing in the process, have a faith built upon what the scripture actually says. A belief in a pre trib rapture requires a belief in a doctrine never explicity taught in the body of scripture. The doctrine relies completely upon "implied" cross references and the misappropriation of scriptures which descibe the glorification of the Church at the second coming of Christ.

 

[iamlamad]

Hey Lamad, get over yourself. Those of us who believe that the church will be protected through the tribulation, with many also dieing in the process, have a faith built upon what the scripture actually says. A belief in a pre trib rapture requires a belief in a doctrine never explicity taught in the body of scripture. The doctrine relies completely upon "implied" cross references and the misappropriation of scriptures which descibe the glorification of the Church at the second coming of Christ.

It seems there is no end to the fabrication experts - the posttribbers! OF COURSE pretrib is explicitly taught! I would not believe it if it wasn't.

It is quite clear from the context that Paul's apotasia is the depature of the one restaining or holding down the revealing. It is quite clear that Paul's rapture comes at a time of peace and safety, as the trigger for the signs as seen at the 6th seal.

But the real mental 2 x 4 for posttrib is John seeing the raptured church in heaven in chapter 7 of Revelation, before he even started the 70th week of Daniel. Posttribbers therefore must try to rearrange John's God given order to make it fit their theory.

By the way, HOW do you find it a time of peace and safety when the world's population has gone from 7 billion down to perhaps a few million? How do you do that? The vials have been poured out, and people are sitting in the dark, gnawing their tongues for pain, scared out of their wits wondering what God will do next. The ONLY thing they found they could enjoy was the death of the two witnesses, 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial. But now they wait, KNOWING God has said no one will know the day nor the hour. They KNOW He is coming, but they are scared. Is this your "peace and safety?" Perhaps you guess they are thinking, "God, is this the best you've got? We are still here and we are still alive! Now that you have given it your best shot, we can finally have peace and safety!"

You might want to take a look at Daniel 9, and see WHO this 70th week is for. You may want to meditate on Luke 21 and see WHO might be found worthy to escape all these things.

Always know, Michael, it is difficult to teach a posttrib theory when God is very much pretrib. It is like forcing a square peg into a round hole. It won't fit, but the mentality is, if those teaching posttrib hit it enough times, just maybe it will fall through. What real scripture, taken in its context really teaches a posttrib rapture? You have Matt. 24, a gathering from heaven. Sorry, don't fit. Perhaps your very best scripture is John 6 "the last day." But the Day of the Lord IS the "last day," and it is an extended "day" that begins right where John says, "the day of His wrath has come." Oh, let's see, what does posttrib do with this verse? They IGNORE it! So not only does postrib have the rapture wrong, they also have the Day of the Lord wrong. It is like dominoes: if one starts to fall, all the others fall with it.

May I suggest you take off your preconceived glasses, and start again with Rev. 1. This time, tell God you will NOT form any doctrine until HE tells you what His intended meaning was when He caused John to write.

Lamad

Shalom, Lamad.


This is the part that scares me. I agree with Veteran here.

There's no such thing as a "HEAVENLY, GODLY language!" What would be the point? When Yeshua` spoke to Paul from the sky (from "heaven"), He spoke to him in the HEBREW TONGUE, the HEBREW LANGUAGE! (Acts 26:14)

My dad was a Baptist minister and he and a missionary friend to Zaire, Africa, a close friend of his, visited the only "Christian" church in a small town, which happened to be charismatic, for someplace to go to church on a Sunday. When the preacher began to speak in an "unknown" tongue, my dad's missionary friend whispered to my dad that he was speaking in a particular dialect of the Congo, and he said that he was saying the most blasphemous, filthy, and outrageous things a person could speak in that language! They high-tailed it out of there as soon as they could!

If God is omniscient (and He is), then He knows our THOUGHTS! We don't need some "HEAVENLY, GODLY language" to communicate with Him! The SPIRIT ITSELF interprets our thoughts with "groanings which CANNOT be uttered!"

We need to be on guard against the trickery and deceit of haSatan AT ALL TIMES! We cannot allow ourselves the luxury of letting our guard down! The great deceiver will find any excuse he can to discredit God's people! God doesn't WANT us to "bypass our brains or minds!" He wants us to USE our minds!

It's always fascinated me how people who quote Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 14:2 don't continue the quote!


1 Corinthians 14:1-19
1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.
12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.
18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
KJV

Seems pretty clear to me. Speaking in a foreign language (tongue) needs to be UNDERSTOOD! If you can't tell someone what you said, then WHAT GOOD IS IT?! If it can't be understood, it is futile - pointless - empty - VAIN! And, Paul was not advocating speaking in tongues as much as he was advocating PROPHESYING, which we call "preaching" today!

It is so nice to see someone knows more than God and can show Him what is really the point.

Why is it you find God's word so hard to believe? What did Paul write? NO MAN UNDERSTANDS. This was Paul inspired by the Holy Spirit. But, it seems neither you nor Veteran really believes This. You have MISSED Paul's entire argument; that the #1 purpose of tongues was for personal prayer, not for a church service. First, it builds the speaker UP, like charging a battery. Next, the pray'er is really praying about the things in his or her life that is preventing or hindering their next step closer to God - things they probably would NOT pray about in their natural tongue. God knew we did not know HOW to pray as we ought, so He planned this out so HE could pray FOR US, but yet use out authority in the earth. It is as simply as ABC, but yet you stumble over it. You don't have to worry at all - as long as you belittle it, God will make SURE you never get it. The Holy Spirit has feelings and really does not like people belittling Him. Please, be CAREFUL about speaking against the Holy Spirit!

By the way, if God the Holy Spirit is creating the language, and He certainly is (see Acts 2:4) then OF COURSE it is a heavenly language.

Lamad

 

[Trumpeter]

It seems there is no end to the fabrication experts - the posttribbers! OF COURSE pretrib is explicitly taught! I would not believe it if it wasn't.

It is quite clear from the context that Paul's apotasia is the depature of the one restaining or holding down the revealing. It is quite clear that Paul's rapture comes at a time of peace and safety, as the trigger for the signs as seen at the 6th seal.

But the real mental 2 x 4 for posttrib is John seeing the raptured church in heaven in chapter 7 of Revelation, before he even started the 70th week of Daniel. Posttribbers therefore must try to rearrange John's God given order to make it fit their theory.

By the way, HOW do you find it a time of peace and safety when the world's population has gone from 7 billion down to perhaps a few million? How do you do that? The vials have been poured out, and people are sitting in the dark, gnawing their tongues for pain, scared out of their wits wondering what God will do next. The ONLY thing they found they could enjoy was the death of the two witnesses, 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial. But now they wait, KNOWING God has said no one will know the day nor the hour. They KNOW He is coming, but they are scared. Is this your "peace and safety?" Perhaps you guess they are thinking, "God, is this the best you've got? We are still here and we are still alive! Now that you have given it your best shot, we can finally have peace and safety!"

You might want to take a look at Daniel 9, and see WHO this 70th week is for. You may want to meditate on Luke 21 and see WHO might be found worthy to escape all these things.

Always know, Michael, it is difficult to teach a posttrib theory when God is very much pretrib. It is like forcing a square peg into a round hole. It won't fit, but the mentality is, if those teaching posttrib hit it enough times, just maybe it will fall through. What real scripture, taken in its context really teaches a posttrib rapture? You have Matt. 24, a gathering from heaven. Sorry, don't fit. Perhaps your very best scripture is John 6 "the last day." But the Day of the Lord IS the "last day," and it is an extended "day" that begins right where John says, "the day of His wrath has come." Oh, let's see, what does posttrib do with this verse? They IGNORE it! So not only does postrib have the rapture wrong, they also have the Day of the Lord wrong. It is like dominoes: if one starts to fall, all the others fall with it.

May I suggest you take off your preconceived glasses, and start again with Rev. 1. This time, tell God you will NOT form any doctrine until HE tells you what His intended meaning was when He caused John to write.

Lamad


It is so nice to see someone knows more than God and can show Him what is really the point.

Why is it you find God's word so hard to believe? What did Paul write? NO MAN UNDERSTANDS. This was Paul inspired by the Holy Spirit. But, it seems neither you nor Veteran really believes This. You have MISSED Paul's entire argument; that the #1 purpose of tongues was for personal prayer, not for a church service. First, it builds the speaker UP, like charging a battery. Next, the pray'er is really praying about the things in his or her life that is preventing or hindering their next step closer to God - things they probably would NOT pray about in their natural tongue. God knew we did not know HOW to pray as we ought, so He planned this out so HE could pray FOR US, but yet use out authority in the earth. It is as simply as ABC, but yet you stumble over it. You don't have to worry at all - as long as you belittle it, God will make SURE you never get it. The Holy Spirit has feelings and really does not like people belittling Him. Please, be CAREFUL about speaking against the Holy Spirit!

By the way, if God the Holy Spirit is creating the language, and He certainly is (see Acts 2:4) then OF COURSE it is a heavenly language.

Lamad

Amen and amen.

Here is another reason millions believe in the pre-tribulation rapture. Why? The Hinderer lives in the hearts of his people: "Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His." (Romans 8:9). Also, 1 Cor 3:16: Do you not know that you are the temple of God and [that] the Spirit of God dwells in you? Because of this truth, God's Spirit cannot be taken unless those in whom he lives are taken. Hallelujah! One should note, however, that the spirits removal only speaks of his restraining power.

Let me prove this assertion: The Holy Spirit is God, the 3rd member of the Trinity. As God, He is omniscient (all-knowing), omnipotent (all-powerful), and omnipresent (everywhere at all times). Therefore, the Holy Spirit cannot be removed from the earth because He, as God, is in all places constantly. David states in Psalm 139:7 – 10: Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? If I ascend into heaven, You [are] there; If I make my bed in hell, behold, You [are there]. [If] I take the wings of the morning, [And] dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, Even there Your hand shall lead me, And Your right hand shall hold me. Since the Holy Spirit is everywhere at all times, only his restraining influence over sin is removed during the tribulation hour.

Presently Christians are the salt of the earth and the light of the world (see Matthew 5:13–16). The evacuation of Christians, in whose hearts the Holy Spirit lives, is the way, the only way, His restraining influence on sin is removed, ridding the world of salt and light. Christians are gods preservative forces, as well as the dispellers of darkness. Imagine what happens when the Spirit's restraining influence (the Church) is removed via the rapture. Quite literally, all hell will break loose upon her. Still, even during this time, His continuing personal presence on earth produces one of the greatest revivals in the history of mankind.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Lamad.

...

It is so nice to see someone knows more than God and can show Him what is really the point.

Why is it you find God's word so hard to believe? What did Paul write? NO MAN UNDERSTANDS. This was Paul inspired by the Holy Spirit. But, it seems neither you nor Veteran really believes This. You have MISSED Paul's entire argument; that the #1 purpose of tongues was for personal prayer, not for a church service. First, it builds the speaker UP, like charging a battery. Next, the pray'er is really praying about the things in his or her life that is preventing or hindering their next step closer to God - things they probably would NOT pray about in their natural tongue. God knew we did not know HOW to pray as we ought, so He planned this out so HE could pray FOR US, but yet use out authority in the earth. It is as simply as ABC, but yet you stumble over it. You don't have to worry at all - as long as you belittle it, God will make SURE you never get it. The Holy Spirit has feelings and really does not like people belittling Him. Please, be CAREFUL about speaking against the Holy Spirit!

By the way, if God the Holy Spirit is creating the language, and He certainly is (see Acts 2:4) then OF COURSE it is a heavenly language.

Lamad

It seems I've touched a raw nerve! Are you that insecure and so dedicated to the need for some unknown tongue to which you refer as a "heavenly language" that you would totally IGNORE the whole chapter I quoted?!

And, I would NEVER speak against the Ruach haQodesh Elohiym (the Holy Spirit of God) and I would NEVER belittle (blaspheme) Him!

On the other hand, I know that He would never REQUIRE that one of His children speak in an "unknown tongue" and many believers in speaking in an unknown tongue say that anyone and EVERYONE who is "truly filled with the Spirit" MUST speak in tongues! I reject that theory completely out of hand, just as Paul did.

Furthermore, I don't think you even understand Acts 2:4 because that is absolutely NOT an occurrence of an "unknown tongue!" To the contrary, we can easily learn from the context that these are the languages of all these other people who have come to Jerusalem for the holiday:


Acts 2:1-21
1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
KJV

Did you even READ what I wrote about my missionary "uncle?" The man used to be a missionary when Zaire was still called "the Congo," and he was a great friend and mentor to me when I went to Bible college. (He was a professor there by that time.)