Runningman
Active Member
Sorry, but speaking to someone standing nearby isn't what constitutes a prayer. As a matter of scholarly interest, the word "prayer" is also never used in reference to speaking to Jesus in Scripture. Fascinating.
Why more Christians need to stop equating Allah with the God of Abraham
- Thread starter Deus vult
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
You may be right that there are no instructions in Scripture to pray to Jesus, although John 14:14 -- at least if "me" is in the original (a debatable point) -- could be interpreted as such an instruction. But there are instances of praying to Jesus recorded in Scripture. Stephen did it (Acts 7:59). John did it (Rev. 22:20). One could argue that Paul did it (Acts 9:16).
Runningman
Active Member
True, while Jesus was in heaven they did speak out to him, but I believe it's debatable as to whether or not crying out to or speaking to someone in heaven necessarily equates to praying. While it's true praying can be reduced to speaking and/or asking - speaking and/or asking doesn't always mean prayer. For example, in Revelation 7:13,14 John spoke to one of the elders in heaven. Perhaps we need to define what prayer is and isn't.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Agreed. I recently learned that nowhere in the Koran does it say Allah loves us.
The Bible says without love, you have nothing. As big a difference as you can get.
It seems you recently "learned" from liars, you certainly didn't read the Quran.
"Allah loves the doers of good" (Surah Al-Baqarah Ayat 195)
"Allah loves those who are constantly repentant and loves those who purify themselves." (Surah Al-Baqarah Ayat 222)
"Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful." (Surah Al-Imran Ayat 31)
Sure. Using ACTS as an acronym, my prayer pattern typically starts with Adoration, then Confession, then Thanksgiving, and lastly Supplication. Just seems like the right order to me.
- Aug 10, 2012
- 6,058
- 7,460
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
... No, just... no. You really need to read other books outside your gossipy social circle.
Jews pray towards the Temple: “they shall pray toward this place and praise Your name, and repent of their sin, so that You may answer them.” (I Kings 8:35)
One, the Talmud is a wicked collection of rules made by men. Jews respect the Talmud as authoritative, Christians do not. Perhaps God humored the Jews with some practices as they got it right sometimes, a stopped clock is right twice a day.
The whailing wall is just a wall people pray at because they are forbidden to enter the temple and pray there. The temple was once for the Name of God. It is not and no longer shall be the dwelling of God on earth.
The presence of God's Holy Spirit makes a place holy. Now the Holy Spirit dwells with men. God has made his home with man. Not in temples made by human hands.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Notice how all these Sura' are a function of virtue or future tense? Not the same as unconditional love NOW, is it?
The Talmud served to explain how Jews in the diaspora practiced what the BIBLE explicitly said to do, pray toward the Temple. Christians worshiped in Temples daily. Every mountain Jesus was on to meet His Father was a rural Temple. He cleansed his Father's house with violence.
Would you have told Jesus he was an idolater: after all the Spirit was in him, so it didn't matter.
Last edited:
Hmm... Just like in the Bible.
Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word" (John 14:23).
“Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine” (Exodus 19:5).
"Behold, I set before you today a blessing and a curse: the blessing, if you obey the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you today; and the curse, if you do not obey the commandments of the Lord your God" (Deuteronomy 11:26-28).
"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him." (John 3:36)
Many more examples can be found throughout the Bible (e.g., John 3:36, Psalm 5:5) showing that God’s love is conditional. He does not tolerate sin or disobedience.
- Aug 10, 2012
- 6,058
- 7,460
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
When God's presence was in his temple it was justifiable to pray in that direction. If Christians are gathering they usually pray wherever they are, and they face no particular direction.
However the Kabba does not house the presence of God. So it is inappropriate to pray towards it.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Nope. The verse you cite refers to our love for Jesus - not God’s unconditional love for us … God so loved the world …
Runningman
Active Member
John 14
21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
John 15
10If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
Proverbs 8
17I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.
Cherry-picking.
Psalm 5:5 says God, “You hate all evildoers”. Psalm 11:5 “The wicked, those who love violence, he hates with a passion.” Proverbs 6:16–19 lists seven things the Lord hates: pride, lying, murder, evil plots, those who love evil, false witnesses, and troublemakers. Notice that this passage does not just include things that God hates; it includes people as well. God hates lying, yes, but lying always involves a person—a liar—who chooses to lie. God cannot condemn lies without also condemning the liar.
"He (Allah) is the All-Forgiving, the All-Loving." (Quran 85:14).
Look, if someone gave you bad information, you don't have to die on that hill. Of all the things to pick, why this issue?
Allah is the old moon god Sin and is actually mentioned in the bible. He also has a desert named after him.
This is the job of Islam;
Amo 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD: And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it. In that day shall the fair virgins and young men faint for thirst.
Archaeologists have uncovered temples to the Moon-god throughout the Middle East. From the mountains of Turkey to the banks of the Nile, the most wide-spread religion of the ancient world was the worship of the Moon-god. His symbol was the crescent moon. The Assyrians, Babylonians, and the Akkadians took the word Suen and transformed it into the word Sin as their favorite name for the Moon-god.
Sin (Akkadian: Su'en, Sîn) or Nanna (Sumerian: DŠEŠ.KI, DNANNA) was the god of the moon in Mesopotamian mythology. Nanna is a Sumerian deity, the son of Enlil and Ninlil, and became identified with Semitic Sin. The two chief seats of Nanna's/Sin's worship were Ur in the south of Mesopotamia and Harran in the north.
Originally known as Suen and often referred to as Haran because of the double meaning of his name.
This demon is one of the Top Ten generals of hell. (3)
However is also known as the Moon God Sin and later was to become Allah of Islam.
The city of Haran is the place where this was all started.
Is the god of the famine, That is a famine of Gods word. When God is rejected and his prophets driven away then he hands the people over to their own delusions and uses this demon of Sin to create a famine of his word so as to separate the people from himself altogether. Amos 8:11 This demon is Islam. The Muslim faith comes under him. He is a pagan god or deity that is still in operation in modern times.
As a demon he can be bound in the name of Jesus
This is the job of Islam;
Amo 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD: And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it. In that day shall the fair virgins and young men faint for thirst.
Archaeologists have uncovered temples to the Moon-god throughout the Middle East. From the mountains of Turkey to the banks of the Nile, the most wide-spread religion of the ancient world was the worship of the Moon-god. His symbol was the crescent moon. The Assyrians, Babylonians, and the Akkadians took the word Suen and transformed it into the word Sin as their favorite name for the Moon-god.
Sin (Akkadian: Su'en, Sîn) or Nanna (Sumerian: DŠEŠ.KI, DNANNA) was the god of the moon in Mesopotamian mythology. Nanna is a Sumerian deity, the son of Enlil and Ninlil, and became identified with Semitic Sin. The two chief seats of Nanna's/Sin's worship were Ur in the south of Mesopotamia and Harran in the north.
Originally known as Suen and often referred to as Haran because of the double meaning of his name.
This demon is one of the Top Ten generals of hell. (3)
However is also known as the Moon God Sin and later was to become Allah of Islam.
The city of Haran is the place where this was all started.
Is the god of the famine, That is a famine of Gods word. When God is rejected and his prophets driven away then he hands the people over to their own delusions and uses this demon of Sin to create a famine of his word so as to separate the people from himself altogether. Amos 8:11 This demon is Islam. The Muslim faith comes under him. He is a pagan god or deity that is still in operation in modern times.
As a demon he can be bound in the name of Jesus
Let me get this straight. The actual name of the region's Moon-god was Sin, while his mere title was al-ilah, i.e. "the god," meaning that he was the chief or high god. And your argument is that Allah cannot be God is because the title was also in use by other polytheistic religious groups, a high god in a pantheon, who were from the same region before Muhammad... and based on this we jump to a conclusion that Allah is name of a pagan god and just completely ignores that the Israelites have this EXACT issue.
Moses identified the regional Canaanite high god El with their own god even though he originally presided over a large pantheon long before the Israelites entered Caanan. AND the closely related plural form elohim is used more often in the Bible, but both derive from the same Semitic root as Allah (El-lah). Arabic being a secondary branch of Hebrew. And Canaanite being the closest language to Bible Hebrew there is, and so applying your same logic we are all pagans; OR, you're wrong, and just like the Canaanite and Hebrew words "El" and "Elohim" and "Ellah", the Arabic "Allah", and the pre-Christian, Germanic word "God", they can all refer both to the Judeo-Christian god and other supernatural beings, including foreign gods/demons in both the Bible and Quran, without such wild implications that compels you to hold such a glaring double standard.
Secondly, unless you've been formally ordained by the laying on of hands of the Christian presbytery with active authority whereby a demon might recognize your authority, calling upon the name of Jesus won't give you any ability to bind a demon.
"Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, "We adjure you by Jesus, whom Paul preacheth". And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so. And the evil spirit answered and said, "Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?" And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded." (Acts 19:13)
Last edited:
Jer 46:25 The LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, saith; Behold, I will punish the multitude of No, and Pharaoh, and Egypt, with their gods, and their kings; even Pharaoh, and all them that trust in him:
Eze 30:15 And I will pour my fury upon Sin, the strength of Egypt; and I will cut off the multitude of No.
Eze 30:16 And I will set fire in Egypt: Sin shall have great pain, and No shall be rent asunder, and Noph shall have distresses daily.
Eze 30:17 The young men of Aven and of Pibeseth shall fall by the sword: and these cities shall go into captivity.
H5512
סין
sı̂yn
seen
Of uncertain derivation; Sin, the name of an Egyptian town and (probably) desert adjoining: - Sin.
Eze 30:15 And I will pour my fury upon Sin, the strength of Egypt; and I will cut off the multitude of No.
Eze 30:16 And I will set fire in Egypt: Sin shall have great pain, and No shall be rent asunder, and Noph shall have distresses daily.
Eze 30:17 The young men of Aven and of Pibeseth shall fall by the sword: and these cities shall go into captivity.
H5512
סין
sı̂yn
seen
Of uncertain derivation; Sin, the name of an Egyptian town and (probably) desert adjoining: - Sin.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
No! I am not cherry picking. The subject is NOT whether there are verses in Scripture where God says he loves certain action. The subject is why Allah is not YHWH. And the difference is there are verses in Scripture where it says God loves us (unconditionally). The same cannot be said of Allah in the Koran.
You are obviously a Muslim apologist. What are you doing on a Christian forum?
I'm a Christian who believes in the Spirit of truth and cannot abide falsehood. It brings shame upon God when Christians lie even for his sake. Do not lie, even for the Lord, he will not love you for it. He does not love liars.
I've told you already what is "obvious". Obviously, "Allah" just means "God" in Arabic, a secondary branch of Hebrew, it comes from the Hebrew Ellah, the singular of Eloh-im. Therefore, linguistically, Allah is clearly the same word as "Elohim" of the Hebrew Bible. He is not Sin, no matter if Sin was also called "allah" (god), just as the Biblical El is not Ba'al, no matter if Ba'al is called "el" (god), there was nothing presented here showing that to be the case. Furthermore, it is obvious, narratively, Allah is certainly intended to be Elohim, the God of Abraham, in an ongoing narrative.
You have yet to articulate a coherent argument. You are trying to say that the Quranic God, which supposed to be the same as the Biblical God, is not, because you subjectively interpret that God's love is unconditional, except where the Bible say it isn't. for disobedient sinners. And "Allah the All-loving" does not love enough to be the same God. I pointed out flaws in your logic, so you are now lashing out at me because you're failing to convey your opinion well.
Whether Muhammad or the Quran was ever inspired, as a non-Muslim, I don't know, but I won't say it is false, because I don't know. I, at least, admit to my ignorance rather than make false judgments with false accusations. But, I'll tell you about my issues with Islam, to see if mine are more coherent than yours.
I am certainly vexed by Muslims who resist the belief in a pre-incarnate Jesus Christ, even though the Quran says God "sent a Word" to Mary and she conceived, as that the "Word" in Christian conception is the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ, and in Jewish sources identifies the "Word" as a divine entity, the Quran isn't simply saying God spoke it and it was done.
I am vexed by how Muslims believe in demons, but disbelieve in fallen angels, because the Quran says angels can't disobey God. What if I interpret it to mean when an angel rebels, they become no longer angels? Their dogma is very unyielding.
I'm vexed by when Muslims say, God is above having sons, because "The begetting of a son is a physical act depending on the needs of man's animal nature... It is derogatory (to Allah) to attribute such an act to him" (the note on page 855 of Abdullah Yusuf Ali's translation and commentary on The Holy Quran). When Jesus was a miraculously conceived, we should agree.
I hold little stock in Muslim interpretations nor in the preservation of the Quran. But what that means to me is Muhammad could have possibly been a prophet, but when he died the Muslims became Apostates and the Quran could be corrupted. There is evidence the Quran has been tampered with. They simply burned the other copies so they could claim their copy is the one Muhammad wrote, when we know it's not (Kahle, The Cairo Geniza 211).
I am not Muslim. I simply won't be so zealous to defend God at the expense of the truth. I've seen how often many "Christian Apologists" play fast and loose with the truth. I will always take you, your books and your pastor's say with a grain of salt.
I've told you already what is "obvious". Obviously, "Allah" just means "God" in Arabic, a secondary branch of Hebrew, it comes from the Hebrew Ellah, the singular of Eloh-im. Therefore, linguistically, Allah is clearly the same word as "Elohim" of the Hebrew Bible. He is not Sin, no matter if Sin was also called "allah" (god), just as the Biblical El is not Ba'al, no matter if Ba'al is called "el" (god), there was nothing presented here showing that to be the case. Furthermore, it is obvious, narratively, Allah is certainly intended to be Elohim, the God of Abraham, in an ongoing narrative.
You have yet to articulate a coherent argument. You are trying to say that the Quranic God, which supposed to be the same as the Biblical God, is not, because you subjectively interpret that God's love is unconditional, except where the Bible say it isn't. for disobedient sinners. And "Allah the All-loving" does not love enough to be the same God. I pointed out flaws in your logic, so you are now lashing out at me because you're failing to convey your opinion well.
Whether Muhammad or the Quran was ever inspired, as a non-Muslim, I don't know, but I won't say it is false, because I don't know. I, at least, admit to my ignorance rather than make false judgments with false accusations. But, I'll tell you about my issues with Islam, to see if mine are more coherent than yours.
I am certainly vexed by Muslims who resist the belief in a pre-incarnate Jesus Christ, even though the Quran says God "sent a Word" to Mary and she conceived, as that the "Word" in Christian conception is the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ, and in Jewish sources identifies the "Word" as a divine entity, the Quran isn't simply saying God spoke it and it was done.
I am vexed by how Muslims believe in demons, but disbelieve in fallen angels, because the Quran says angels can't disobey God. What if I interpret it to mean when an angel rebels, they become no longer angels? Their dogma is very unyielding.
I'm vexed by when Muslims say, God is above having sons, because "The begetting of a son is a physical act depending on the needs of man's animal nature... It is derogatory (to Allah) to attribute such an act to him" (the note on page 855 of Abdullah Yusuf Ali's translation and commentary on The Holy Quran). When Jesus was a miraculously conceived, we should agree.
I hold little stock in Muslim interpretations nor in the preservation of the Quran. But what that means to me is Muhammad could have possibly been a prophet, but when he died the Muslims became Apostates and the Quran could be corrupted. There is evidence the Quran has been tampered with. They simply burned the other copies so they could claim their copy is the one Muhammad wrote, when we know it's not (Kahle, The Cairo Geniza 211).
I am not Muslim. I simply won't be so zealous to defend God at the expense of the truth. I've seen how often many "Christian Apologists" play fast and loose with the truth. I will always take you, your books and your pastor's say with a grain of salt.
Last edited:
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
LOL. Appealing to Strawman shows your logic is flawed. They are not the same because of how they are similar; they are different precisely because of the reason I stated.
It is not because of my subjective opinion but an objective analysis of the text. YHWH loves us unconditionally while Allah does not. It’s as different as different can be.
There is no doubt in my mind the Angel who approached Muhammad was not Gabriel, who he claimed, the same Angel who approached the Virgin Mary. Rather his real name was Lucifer, now known as Satan.
The difference in their god explains the evils of Islam, such as the verse of the sword, that commands unconditional killing and seizing of ‘people of the book’, aka Christians and Jews. And more importantly, the bloody 1400 year history bringing violence wherever it spreads shows the difference.
Not all the terrorists yelling ‘Allah Ackbar’ are misunderstanding Islam. No one has been more brutalized by Islam than the Muslims, themselves.
Semantics. No one is claiming the etymology of the word is different. It’s the person, the character of the ultimate good verses the ultimate evil. You ought to be able to tell them apart by their fruit!
Last edited:
Similar threads
