Why Hell is not a place of eternal conscious torment.

[Johann]

Jude 1:7- just as Sodom and Gomor′rah and the surrounding cities, which likewise acted immorally and indulged in unnatural lust, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire. - RSV

I guess some people prefer corrupt translations.

As S'dom and Amora and the cities around them, in a doime (similar) manner to these, indulging in gilui arayot (sexual immorality) against the course of nature and turning aside and going after alien flesh, are set forth to lie in public view as a mofet (example), undergoing the onesh of Eish Olam (Eternal Fire, YESHAYAH 66:24; Mt 25:46; Rv 20:10).

Is not that Sodom and Gomorrah is burning forever, but as an MOFET to US committing habitual immorality/arayot--who SHALL undergo eish olam-puts a different slant, but the reality is there.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Well gee, if you're wrong you're leading people to "everlasting fire".

So you believe the hell topic is a salvation issue?
Well, I can see Univeralism as heretical because it changes the nature of salvation.
But to suggest that believing in the Bible’s teaching on Conditional Immortality is a salvation issue is going overboard (if that is what you are suggesting).

The Bible actually teaches Conditional Immortality.

Great Points for Conditional Immortality

1. The Tree in Garden (See here).
2. Revelation 21:8 says that the Lake of Fire is the Second Death. The Second Death is related to the First Death. But in ECT this is not the case; They are not really related.
3. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body..." (Matthew 10:28). In this verse Jesus compares to not be afraid of those who kill (destroy) the body, but be afraid of the One (Jesus) who can destroy the soul. The parallel is destroyed in ECT.
4. There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy" (James 4:12). Save AND DESTROY. But in ECT, the word “destroy” does not really mean, “destroy.”
5. "...who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel" (2 Tim 1:10). In ECT, there is no immortality through the gospel. Everyone is either already immortal or they will be immortal regardless of the gospel.
6. Jesus (God) alone has immortality-anyone else becomes immortal only as a result of God's gracious gift (1 Timothy 6:16, Romans 2:7). Yet, in ECT this is not the case.
7. To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: (Romans 2:7). Yet, in ECT, Why are we told to seek after eternal life if everyone is already going to live eternally?
8. Jude 1:7 - eternal fire. Just because the fire is “eternal fire” does that mean Sodom and Gomorrha is still burning today? Certainly not. But ECT Proponents just brush this truth aside and put their fingers intheir ears and move on (With them not really dealing with the truth).
9. Hebrews 6:2 says there is an “eternal judgment.” Does that mean that God is going to judging saved and unsaved for a finite amount of people for all eternity? Surely not. So then to say that “everlasting” (or eternal) punishment must be interpreted in the same way is silly (Especially when there are Conditional Immortality verses that ECT proponents love to ignore or twist).
10. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. (John 6:51). Again, in ECT, these words by our Lord Jesus do not really mean anything. Why should we care if we live forever if everyone is going to live forever anyways? It doesn’t make any sense.
11. Whose end is destruction, (Philippians 3:19). Yet, in ECT, they don’t believe the the wicked will have an end that is destruction.
12. 2 Thessalonians 1:9-Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction. In ECT, they don’t believe this word “destruction” is to be read literally. They somehow favor a God who punishes people way beyond what the crime calls for.
13. Hebrews 10:39-But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition. (Greek: perdion means “destruction”).
14. , "He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal." John 12:25. Again, how can one really lose his life if they live eternally in conscious torment in fire? Technically their life is not lost in ECT.
15. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:23). In ECT, death is not really the wages of sin because they will live forever. In ECT, eternal life is not really a gift of eternal life because everyone will have eternal life regardless of whether they receive the gift of eternal life or not. So more twisting or ignoring of Scripture is involved if one believes in ECT.

 

[Johann]

So you believe the hell topic is a salvation issue?
Well, I can see Univeralism as heretical because it changes the nature of salvation.
But to suggest that believing in the Bible’s teaching on Conditional Immortality is a salvation issue is going overboard (if that is what you are suggesting).

The Bible actually teaches Conditional Immortality.

Great Points for Conditional Immortality

1. The Tree in Garden (See here).
2. Revelation 21:8 says that the Lake of Fire is the Second Death. The Second Death is related to the First Death. But in ECT this is not the case; They are not really related.
3. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body..." (Matthew 10:28). In this verse Jesus compares to not be afraid of those who kill (destroy) the body, but be afraid of the One (Jesus) who can destroy the soul. The parallel is destroyed in ECT.
4. There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy" (James 4:12). Save AND DESTROY. But in ECT, the word “destroy” does not really mean, “destroy.”
5. "...who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel" (2 Tim 1:10). In ECT, there is no immortality through the gospel. Everyone is either already immortal or they will be immortal regardless of the gospel.
6. Jesus (God) alone has immortality-anyone else becomes immortal only as a result of God's gracious gift (1 Timothy 6:16, Romans 2:7). Yet, in ECT this is not the case.
7. To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: (Romans 2:7). Yet, in ECT, Why are we told to seek after eternal life if everyone is already going to live eternally?
8. Jude 1:7 - eternal fire. Just because the fire is “eternal fire” does that mean Sodom and Gomorrha is still burning today? Certainly not. But ECT Proponents just brush this truth aside and put their fingers intheir ears and move on (With them not really dealing with the truth).
9. Hebrews 6:2 says there is an “eternal judgment.” Does that mean that God is going to judging saved and unsaved for a finite amount of people for all eternity? Surely not. So then to say that “everlasting” (or eternal) punishment must be interpreted in the same way is silly (Especially when there are Conditional Immortality verses that ECT proponents love to ignore or twist).
10. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. (John 6:51). Again, in ECT, these words by our Lord Jesus do not really mean anything. Why should we care if we live forever if everyone is going to live forever anyways? It doesn’t make any sense.
11. Whose end is destruction, (Philippians 3:19). Yet, in ECT, they don’t believe the the wicked will have an end that is destruction.
12. 2 Thessalonians 1:9-Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction. In ECT, they don’t believe this word “destruction” is to be read literally. They somehow favor a God who punishes people way beyond what the crime calls for.
13. Hebrews 10:39-But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition. (Greek: perdion means “destruction”).
14. , "He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal." John 12:25. Again, how can one really lose his life if they live eternally in conscious torment in fire? Technically their life is not lost in ECT.
15. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:23). In ECT, death is not really the wages of sin because they will live forever. In ECT, eternal life is not really a gift of eternal life because everyone will have eternal life regardless of whether they receive the gift of eternal life or not. So more twisting or ignore of Scripture is involved if one believes in ECT.

I agree, Gehenna is not a salvific topic, nobody wants to go there, so I gently agree to disagree with you here, but feel free to correct me on the major doctrines, as you feel led, I give you permission, with three other brothers-to correct me since I am not ashamed to admit I stand in need of correction.
Shalom
J.

 

[Jack]

So you believe the hell topic is a salvation issue?

Well, it's Biblical for sure! Satan would LOVE to have our company in Hell "forever and ever".

Well, I can see Univeralism as heretical because it changes the nature of salvation.
But to suggest that believing in the Bible’s teaching on Conditional Immortality is a salvation issue is going overboard (if that is what you are suggesting).

The Bible actually teaches Conditional Immortality.

Great Points for Conditional Immortality

1. The Tree in Garden (See here).
2. Revelation 21:8 says that the Lake of Fire is the Second Death. The Second Death is related to the First Death. But in ECT this is not the case; They are not really related.
3. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body..." (Matthew 10:28). In this verse Jesus compares to not be afraid of those who kill (destroy) the body, but be afraid of the One (Jesus) who can destroy the soul. The parallel is destroyed in ECT.
4. There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy" (James 4:12). Save AND DESTROY. But in ECT, the word “destroy” does not really mean, “destroy.”
5. "...who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel" (2 Tim 1:10). In ECT, there is no immortality through the gospel. Everyone is either already immortal or they will be immortal regardless of the gospel.
6. Jesus (God) alone has immortality-anyone else becomes immortal only as a result of God's gracious gift (1 Timothy 6:16, Romans 2:7). Yet, in ECT this is not the case.
7. To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: (Romans 2:7). Yet, in ECT, Why are we told to seek after eternal life if everyone is already going to live eternally?
8. Jude 1:7 - eternal fire. Just because the fire is “eternal fire” does that mean Sodom and Gomorrha is still burning today? Certainly not. But ECT Proponents just brush this truth aside and put their fingers intheir ears and move on (With them not really dealing with the truth).
9. Hebrews 6:2 says there is an “eternal judgment.” Does that mean that God is going to judging saved and unsaved for a finite amount of people for all eternity? Surely not. So then to say that “everlasting” (or eternal) punishment must be interpreted in the same way is silly (Especially when there are Conditional Immortality verses that ECT proponents love to ignore or twist).
10. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. (John 6:51). Again, in ECT, these words by our Lord Jesus do not really mean anything. Why should we care if we live forever if everyone is going to live forever anyways? It doesn’t make any sense.
11. Whose end is destruction, (Philippians 3:19). Yet, in ECT, they don’t believe the the wicked will have an end that is destruction.
12. 2 Thessalonians 1:9-Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction. In ECT, they don’t believe this word “destruction” is to be read literally. They somehow favor a God who punishes people way beyond what the crime calls for.
13. Hebrews 10:39-But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition. (Greek: perdion means “destruction”).
14. , "He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal." John 12:25. Again, how can one really lose his life if they live eternally in conscious torment in fire? Technically their life is not lost in ECT.
15. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:23). In ECT, death is not really the wages of sin because they will live forever. In ECT, eternal life is not really a gift of eternal life because everyone will have eternal life regardless of whether they receive the gift of eternal life or not. So more twisting or ignore of Scripture is involved if one believes in ECT.

If we can't believe Jesus then who can we believe? He clearly taught the eternal Hell fire probably more times than He taught "eternal life".

 

[theJW]

 

[Jack]

View attachment 31495

You don't know that God didn't tell Adam. He certainly told us in the NT. Even the NWT says so.

 

[Johann]

View attachment 31495

Go to Quora or Got Questions--at least that will make you sound intelligent--without placards.

 

[theJW]

Replies without SOME kind of proof are what's dished out in church.
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

[Jack]

You don't know that God didn't tell Adam. He certainly told us in the NT. Even the NWT says so.

Do you really think that burning in Hell with the Devil "forever and ever" is funny theJW?

 

[Johann]

Go to Quora or Got Questions--at least that will make you sound intelligent--without placards.

Replies without SOME kind of proof are what's dished out in church.
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

All the proof you need is in Scriptures--sleep tight.
J.

 

[Jack]

Replies without SOME kind of proof are what's dished out in church.
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Especially Kingdom Hall. They almost never have any proof. They TWIST nearly every Bible verse!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I agree, Gehenna is not a salvific topic, nobody wants to go there, so I gently agree to disagree with you here, but feel free to correct me on the major doctrines, as you feel led, I give you permission, with three other brothers-to correct me since I am not ashamed to admit I stand in need of correction.
Shalom
J.

If a believer holds to ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment), I don’t see that as a salvation issue. I see the Lord rebuking His people for holding to that doctrine, but not condemning them. Granted, I could be wrong. There really is no real way for me to know. It just my impression.

But Universalism is a gross error because it is saying that everyone will be saved (Including wicked unbelievers). This runs contrary to tons of verses in Scripture and it is not much different than a person who believes in God in general but they do not believe in the Bible or in taking it seriously. I don’t believe New Age Christians or liberal Christians are saved. Univeralism is essentially liberalism in my view.

 

[Johann]

Especially Kingdom Hall. They almost never have any proof. They TWIST nearly every Bible verse!

I actually had a visit yesterday from a JW-in my house, 15 minutes max-Ol' Mike turned pale, red, to being pale again and again-and promptly left as I told him I am deeply disappointed in what he had to offer.
Any JW's here? Know Mike? Tell him I understand the street I live in is "hot" and I can understand that he was more concerned about his car parked outside.

Lol!
J.

 

[Jack]

If a believer holds to ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment), I don’t see that as a salvation issue. I see the Lord rebuking His people for holding to that doctrine, but not condemning them. Granted, I could be wrong. There really is no real way for me to know. It just my impression.

But Universalism is a gross error because it is saying that everyone will be saved (Including wicked unbelievers). This runs contrary to tons of verses in Scripture and it is not much different than a person who believes in God in general but they do not believe in the Bible or in taking it seriously. I don’t believe New Age Christians or liberal Christians are saved. Univeralism is essentially liberalism in my view.

Then why are 'Christians' obsessed with denial of the "everlasting fire" that Jesus warned us about? Sounds exactly like what Satan's children would do.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Well, it's Biblical for sure! Satan would LOVE to have our company in Hell "forever and ever".

If we can't believe Jesus then who can we believe? He clearly taught the eternal Hell fire probably more times than He taught "eternal life".

See, this is the problem. You just ignore the points I made for Conditional Immortality. Your not actually dealing with the points I made. Your just going back into your scipted recording routine as if that proves anything. I already explained the 5 verses that appear to defend ECT. But there are so many more verses that defend Conditional Immortalty that far outweigh ECT. But your too deep into the tradition of the popular churches of today to see it. ECT is sort of like OSAS. It’s the standard cookie cutter man made belief in popular churches today. They just blindly repeat these beliefs that come from men and they never really tested to see if these things are actually in the Bible or not (from an unbiased viewpoint).

 

[Johann]

If a believer holds to ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment), I don’t see that as a salvation issue. I see the Lord rebuking His people for holding to that doctrine, but not condemning them. Granted, I could be wrong. There really is no real way for me to know. It just my impression.

But Universalism is a gross error because it is saying that everyone will be saved (Including wicked unbelievers). This runs contrary to tons of verses in Scripture and it is not much different than a person who believes in God in general but they do not believe in the Bible or in taking it seriously. I don’t believe New Age Christians or liberal Christians are saved. Univeralism is essentially liberalism in my view.

I think by now you should know I don't believe one bit in Universalism or anything "New Age"-
J.

 

[Jack]

See, this is the problem. You just ignore the points I made for Conditional Immortality. Your not actually dealing with the points I made. Your just going back into your scipted recording routine as if that proves anything. I already explained the 5 verses that appear to defend ECT. But there are so many more verses that defend Conditional Immortalty that far outweigh ECT. But your too deep into the tradition of the popular churches of today to see it. ECT is sort of like OSAS. It’s the standard cookie cutter man made belief in popular churches today. They just blindly repeat these beliefs that come from men and they never really tested to see if these things are actually in the Bible or not (from an unbiased viewpoint).

The real problem is that you are ignoring what Jesus said. "They will be tormented day and night FOREVER and EVER"!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Then why are 'Christians' obsessed with denial of the "everlasting fire" that Jesus warned us about? Sounds exactly like what Satan's children would do.

You can keep espousing opinions all you like, but unless you deal with the verses that teach ECT, and or explain the defense I made for the 5 verses that appear to teach ECT, your never going to see beyond what you know. You will just stay in the safe zone of what you want to see and you can brush aside what the Bible says and just stick to what the popular churches teach today.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I think by now you should know I don't believe one bit in Universalism or anything "New Age"-
J.

I know. I am just saying that anyone who does believe in Liberalism, Universalism, or the Christian New Age is not saved - IMHO.
They are gross heretical distortions of the faith.

 

[Jack]

You can keep espousing opinions all you like, but unless you deal with the verses that teach ECT, and or explain the defense I made for the 5 verses that appear to teach ECT, your never going to see beyond what you know. You will just stay in the safe zone of what you want to see and you can brush aside what the Bible says and just stick to what the popular churches teach today.

Have you ever read the NT? Doesn't sound like it!

"They will be tormented day and night FOREVER and EVER"!