Why Hell is not a place of eternal conscious torment.

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Bible Highlighter

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If you don't believe what Jesus said about "eternal punishment" then you can't believe what He said about "eternal life". They are the same Greek word.
You also have to ask yourself. What is the everlasting punishment in Matthew 25:46 (KJB)?

It is this….

”Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction
from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;”​
(2 Thessalonians 1:9).​

So the everlasting punishment is EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION. Something that is destroyed is no more.

If I destroy a piece of paper I will most likely burn it or shred it to pieces.
But it is not in the same form that it was before. It’s gone.

If you drop your car keys into molten hot lava, let them go. They are gone.
It would probably have melted the metal to be unusable. So let those car keys go. They are no more.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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Jude 1:7 says, “Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.”

Sodom and Gomorrha was destroyed by fire from Heaven. Yet, this fire is called “eternal life.”
Does that mean that the fire at Sodom and Gomorrha are still burning today? Are these cities still burning in fire? Surely not.
This fire is an example for us. So just as Sodom and Gomorrha were DESTROYED, it is an example to us as a warning so that we should not be destroyed, too.
 

Patrick1966

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in the form of eternal torment
Why would God eternally test someone who is supposed damned forever?

Here is what "torment" means in the context used in the Bible.

Basanos speaks about a touchstone. A touchstone is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of silver and gold. The person would rub the metal on the stone and the color of the streak produced would show what it is. However, this word also means when someone is tortured. That’s because there is a force exerted in torturing someone for them to expose the truth.

This word is used of physical diseases (Matthew 4:24) and those in hell after death (Luke 16:23).

“And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.”

– Luke 16:23
 

Patrick1966

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You also have to ask yourself. What is the everlasting punishment in Matthew 25:46 (KJB)?
Depends on the translation. If you use the faulty KJV it means "forever punishment". If you use a proper translation, such as the YLT, it means punishment for an age.

Matthew 25:46
Young's Literal Translation
46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'​

 

Jack

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First, please go back and read the points I made. If you don’t it just seems like you are ignoring the truth of God’s Word.

Second, what does “eternal judgment” mean in Hebrews 6:2?
It’s pretty simple; God judges, and the result is everlasting. Few traditionalists (i.e. Eternal Torment proponents), if any, argue that this verse teaches that God is continually judging for eternity, banging his gavel and repeatedly declaring saved or unsaved the same finite number of existent people. But wait a minute; it doesn’t say “the eternal results of judgment.” It says “eternal judgment.” Following the reasoning applied to Matthew 25:46, this verse must teach that God is continually in the act of judging! In other words, the consequences of the punishment are everlasting, and not the act of punishing that is ongoing. In fact, if we compare Scripture with Scripture, we discover exactly what this “everlasting punishment” actually is.

In 2 Thessalonians 1:9. It says,

“Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord,​
and from the glory of his power;” (KJV).​

So the wicked will be destroyed. Their everlasting punishment is…. everlasting destruction! Destruction means it is not around anymore. Something that is destroyed is no more. If I tell you I will destroy a piece of paper, I will either shred it, or burn it, etc.; It will be no more from what it used to be. It will cease to function in the manner that it was. It was destroyed.

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Satan LOVES it when his messengers convince people that there is no "everlasting fire"! He wants our company "forever and ever" as Jesus put it.
 

Enoch111

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Whenever we see “for ever” or “for ever and ever” in the Bible, we have to realize that it is a metaphor taken from Isaiah 34:10.
No. It is no metaphor. It must be taken as the equivalent of eternal or everlasting. Now I could actually prove this to you from the Bible, but would that make any difference? NONE WHATSOEVER. Why? Because people love to twist the Scriptures to fit their false doctrines.
 
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Enoch111

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That's because you've been reading and hearing false doctrines in bibles such as the KJV.
That is one of the silliest remarks to come along. "in bibles such as the KJV"? which has been the Bible par excellence for over 400 years. This is more nonsense being posted on this board.
 

Patrick1966

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That is one of the silliest remarks to come along. "in bibles such as the KJV"? which has been the Bible par excellence for over 400 years. This is more nonsense being posted on this board.

Google "King James Version translation errors". There are too many to count.
 
J

Johann

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No. It is no metaphor. It must be taken as the equivalent of eternal or everlasting. Now I could actually prove this to you from the Bible, but would that make any difference? NONE WHATSOEVER. Why? Because people love to twist the Scriptures to fit their false doctrines.
Like you've rightly said-you can prove that eternal means eternal from the Bible-but to no avail.
J.
 
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friend of

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The fire is God.

Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.
The fire is not God. God prepared hell for the devil and his angels. God was not "preparing Himself" for the devil and his angels.
 

St. SteVen

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The fire is not God. God prepared hell for the devil and his angels. God was not "preparing Himself" for the devil and his angels.
Interesting point. Thanks.
What do you make of this?

Hebrews 12:29 NIV
for our “God is a consuming fire.”[a]
 
J

Johann

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Interesting point. Thanks.
What do you make of this?

Hebrews 12:29 NIV
for our “God is a consuming fire.”[a]
thy God: Deu_9:3, Deu_32:22; Exo_24:17; Psa_21:9; Isa_30:33, Isa_33:14; Jer_21:12-14; Nah_1:6; Zep_1:18; Heb_12:29 Deu_4:24,

For, indeed, Eloheinu is a consuming Eish. [Dt 4:24; 9:3; Isa 33:14]


a jealous God: Deu_6:15, Deu_29:20, Deu_32:16, Deu_32:21; Exo_20:5, Exo_34:14; Psa_78:58; Isa_42:8; Nah_1:2; Zep_3:8; 1Co_10:22
Heb_10:27; Exo_24:17; Num_11:1, Num_16:35; Deu_9:3; Psa_50:3, Psa_97:3; Isa_66:15; Dan_7:9; 2Th_1:8
 

Bible Highlighter

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Depends on the translation. If you use the faulty KJV it means "forever punishment". If you use a proper translation, such as the YLT, it means punishment for an age.
Grace, peace, and love to you from the Lord Jesus Christ.
The translation issue is a touchy subject for many, but I try and not divide over it unless the believer is creating their own translation or they speak evil of those who believe the King James Bible is the pure Word of God.
I do have a personal friend and Christian brother in the Lord who does not believe the King James Bible is the pure Word of God.
We simply agree to disagree in love and respect. I am not technically KJV Only. I am Core KJB. This means the King James Bible is more core foundational text in 1600’s English (along with the Hebrew and Greek), and yet on the other hand I believe it is essential to use Modern Translations to help update the archaic 1600’s English in the KJB.

But I do have to ask: Do you believe the YLT is the pure Word of God for today?
Or do you believe no Bible in English are the perfect words of God?
Is there any book on the planet that is God’s perfect set of words?
If there no “book of the Lord” as Isaiah prophesied would exist during the End times in Isaiah 34:16?

Please check out this video here by Brandon Peterson. He connects the references in Revelation to Isaiah 34.
He also shows that this is written to the Gentiles of all nations.


I believe the King James Bible is the pure Word of God for 101 reasons. I am hoping to polish up my write up on that to present that here on the forums in the near future (Lord willing).

the YLT, it means punishment for an age. Matthew 25:46​

Young's Literal Translation​

46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'​


I don’t think it is a contradiction to say that the words “for ever” and “ever” can be defined as “for the ages of the ages” (like in the Darby Bible Translation). If a man says to his wife, “We will be together forever and ever.” This does not mean he is referring to how they will be together for eternity, but they will be together forever in context to as how long they live. He uses a metaphor to represent a period of time or age on this Earth. Yes, it may not be as clear, but it does not mean it is inaccurate to say that. Did you ever check out Philemon 1:15 in the King James Bible? Did Onesimus return to his master Philemon for all eternity or forever? Are Onesimus and Philemon still alive today? No, of course not. Onesimus returned forever to Philemon in context to while they were both alive on the Earth alone. It merely speaks metaphorically to represent a literal age or set amount of time. It’s not an inaccurate translation or rendering.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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Depends on the translation. If you use the faulty KJV it means "forever punishment". If you use a proper translation, such as the YLT, it means punishment for an age.

Matthew 25:46​

Young's Literal Translation​

46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'​

I think my explanation on Revelation 20:10 helps to clarify this discussion.

Explaining Revelation 20:10:

“And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.” (Revelation 20:10).​

First, the devil, the beast and the false prophet are demons. So even if one wanted to make this verse about eternal torment for faithless sinful mankind, the context in view here is in reference to demons and not wicked or faithless human beings.

Second, some suggest that the beast and the false prophet have been hanging down in the Lake of Fire for about 1,000 years before Satan is cast into the Lake of Fire (Suggesting that one remains alive while in the Lake of Fire for a very long time). While I do not discount the possibility that the beast and the false prophet may be alive down within the Lake of Fire, there is also the possibility that they are simply corpses by the time Satan is cast into the Lake of Fire, as well. How so? Well, Scripture can refer to the dead or the deceased with the word “are.” Isaiah says,

They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.” (Isaiah 26:14).


Also, while God certainly may have many reasons to send Satan into the bottomless pit for 1,000 years before releasing him one last time at the end of the Millennium, why didn’t God just cast Satan into the Lake of Fire for 1,000 years along with the beast and the false prophet instead? Could it be that such a place is indeed a place of eventual destruction or annihilation? Fires in our real world teach us that they consume things.

But what about the part in Revelation 20:10 that says,

“the devil… shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever”​


While I believe the KJV is the perfect Word of God for our day, and I prefer to simply look up words in older English dictionaries, I believe sometimes the original languages can on rare occasions give us a deeper and or expanded meaning.

The word “ever” repeated twice within Revelation 20:10 (in the KJV) is taken from the Greek word “aiōn.” According to Strong’s, this word is defined as a period or age (Which from our perspective can seem like an eternity).

In other words, Revelation 20:10 is saying that the devil, the beast, and the false prophet will be tormented day and night for... "ages, and ages."; Here are a few translations that express something similar:

"for the eons of the eons." ~ Concordant Literal New Testament​
"for the ages of the ages." ~ Darby Bible Translation.​
"for the aeons of the aeons." ~ The New Covenant by Dr. J.W. Hanson​

In other words, Revelation 20:10 could be potentially saying that the devil, the beast, and the false prophet may be tormented day and night for the purpose of the Ages and Ages (or the Ages of Ages). Meaning the Ages and Ages that are past! They are being punished day and night for the evil that they committed during the past Ages and Ages here on this Earth. Fair justice. For the word "for" can also be defined as "because" (i.e. the purpose of) within the English language.

Revelation 20:10 Darby

"And the devil who deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] both the beast and the false prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night for [the purpose of] the ages of ages."​

For the devil, the beast, and the false prophet are all demons who have tormented mankind for ages and ages. So they will be cast into the Lake of Fire and brimstone and will be tormented day and night and not for all eternity.

So the "ages and ages" could be talking about "past ages" and not "future ages."

This is further supported by the fact that Paul says the last enemy to be destroyed is death (1 Corinthians 15:26), which suggests that there were other enemies of God that the Lord destroyed before this last enemy. This then ties in nicely with Revelation 21:4 saying, "the former things have passed away." These former things that have passed away are: tears, sorrow, crying, death, and pain. For the first heaven and first earth will pass away and a new heaven and a new earth will take its place (Revelation 21:1). For Jesus says, "I make all things new." (Revelation 21:5).

Now, does this mean I do not believe the English words “for ever, and ever” in my King James Bible? Perish the thought. Most certainly not! I believe the Word of God.

I believe the devil will be tormented day and night for ever, and ever, but this is only within the context for as long as the Lake of Fire exists and it is only in context to how long the devil will exist as a conscious active being. Remember Philemon 1:15? Did Onesimus return to his master Philemon for all eternity or forever? Is Onesimus and Philemon still alive today? No, of course not. Onesimus returned forever to Philemon in context to while they were both alive on the Earth alone.

Furthermore, if we were to look again at Revelation 14:11 it says the smoke of their torment ascends for ever, and ever. Smoke of torment ascending for ever and ever” is a metaphorical phrase from Isaiah 34:10 that says,

“It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.” (Isaiah 34:10).​

Notice the words "night nor day shall not be quenched” in the verse.

Surely the smoke of the city of Edom will not go up for all eternity because Jesus says Heaven and Earth will pass away (Matthew 24:35) and Revelation 21:1 says, “the first heaven and the first earth were passed away.” You cannot have eternal cities burning forever on a planet that passes away. It doesn’t make any sense. So this lets us know that the words "for ever and ever" and “night and day” is in reference to the language for destruction. This is how I believe that we are to interpret Scripture. We interpret Scripture with Scripture (Isaiah 28:10) (Acts of the Apostles 17:10-11). If we are to be consistent with how biblical language is used. When in reference to punishment, the words “for ever and ever" is in reference to destruction from Isaiah 34:10. That is how these words are described and setting the tone of how we should understand these phrases or words. Yes, Scripture says in Revelation how God lives for ever and ever, but this is not in context to punishment but to God. Take for example the word "know" in the Bible. It can mean "having knowledge" like in Genesis 3:5. But used in another context, it can refer to physical intimacy like in Genesis 19:5. The dictionary has several definitions for the word "ever." Besides the word "ever" meaning eternal, it also defines the word "ever" in this way, as well.

Ever:
(adverb):

To a great extent or degree.​

Dictionary Source:
Ever dictionary definition | ever defined

So while this may not be 100% biblical fact, it may possibly mean in Revelation 20:10 as saying,

“...shall be tormented day and night for ever [a great extent] and ever [degree].”​


Also, the beast and the false prophets are demons in Revelation 20:10, and not wicked men. The false prophet in Revelation 16:13-14 is implied to be the one who is the second beast who rose up out of the earth (Revelation 13:11-15). So even if one wanted to take the words for ever and ever literally in Revelation 20:10, it is referring to demons and not wicked humans.

1 Corinthians 15:26 says,

The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.”​


If we believe the last enemy to be destroyed is death, this strongly implies that there are other previous enemies of God who will also be destroyed, as well.

This is EXACTLY what we see described of the devil in Ezekiel 28.
“By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.” (Ezekiel 28:16).
 
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Behold

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Notice the words "night nor day shall not be quenched” in the verse.


Yes,

Eternal damnation, will last for as long as God lives., so, the damned, who are those who have never been born again...

John 3:36

will end up in the place "prepared for the devil and His angels".

Why?
its because when you are not born again, you stay here.....>"you are of YOUR FATHER The Devil"...and you will end up with your father, in eternity.

If you are born again, then GOD, the Father of Christ is your..."abba" "Father, and after you die, you will end up with your eternal Father = Heaven.

There are NO born again in Hell, and you can't be born again in Hell.
 
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J

Johann

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Please check out this video here by Brandon Peterson. He connects the references in Revelation to Isaiah 34.
He also shows that this is written to the Gentiles of all nations.
Edom is synonymous with Babylon, correct?

This is hyperbolic language which denotes a complete destruction that lasts into the indefinite future (cf. Isa. 1:31; 13:20; 66:24).

There are two terms for "forever" used.

line 2, עולם (BDB 761,
line 4, נצח (BDB 664, cf. 2 Sam. 2:26; Isa. 13:20; 25:8; 28:28; 33:20; 57:16)
The phrase "its smoke shall go up forever" is used in Rev. 14:11 and 19:3. It seems probable that

"Moab" in Isa. 25:10-12
"Edom" in this context
"Babylon" in Revelation
all stand for "human society organized and functioning apart from God or even in rebellion against God."
 
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Bible Highlighter

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To those who have ears to hear:

When I mention Conditional Immortality verses to ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment) Christians, usually I notice a pattern. They INGORE the verses that defend Conditional Immortality and or if pushed into a corner, they will defend some odd-ball interpretation on the verse that really has no merit based on the context (and the interpretation does not even make any sense and it is illogical).

Take for example Matthew 10:28. It says:

”And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul:​
but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” (Matthew 10:28).​
Side Note:

The word “hell” here is “Gehenna” in the Greek. Gehenna is the Lake of Fire or the final punishment of the wicked (i.e., the end of the wicked).​

Naturally, Jesus is contrasting destruction (death) of the physical body and He is contrasting it with the destruction (death) of the soul.
One part is not literal while the other is metaphor. That is changing the plain reading of His words, and it is twisting what He said.

Also, the same is true with the the Lake of Fire being the ”second death” mentioned in Revelation 21:8.
It can only be called a “second death” if it is related to the “first death” (Which is the death of the human body in this life).
Wicked men will be resurrected again (i.e., the resurrection of the damned) and they will face punishment and then be destroyed physically a second time. To say that the second death is a metaphor for eternal torment is not consistent with it being related to the first death (Which is literal). Again, one has to twist the plain reading of Scripture to make ECT work.

So verses like these are either ignored or they have some odd-ball explanation that is so far out there that it makes your eyes roll.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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Edom is synonymous with Babylon, correct?

This is hyperbolic language which denotes a complete destruction that lasts into the indefinite future (cf. Isa. 1:31; 13:20; 66:24).

There are two terms for "forever" used.

line 2, עולם (BDB 761,
line 4, נצח (BDB 664, cf. 2 Sam. 2:26; Isa. 13:20; 25:8; 28:28; 33:20; 57:16)
The phrase "its smoke shall go up forever" is used in Rev. 14:11 and 19:3. It seems probable that

"Moab" in Isa. 25:10-12
"Edom" in this context
"Babylon" in Revelation
all stand for "human society organized and functioning apart from God or even in rebellion against God."
The video by Brandon Peterson is not in defense of Conditional Immortality. While Brandon and I have talked, and I am not officially aware of his position on hell, I do believe he holds to ECT (Eternal Consious Torment).

The point of Brandon’s video was to show that there is a connection between Isaiah 34 prophecy and Revelation. He connects the verses and shows them in a graphically cool way. There is no mistake that Isaiah 34 is a prophecy of the End Times in Revelation. Another point Brandon makes in the video is that he shows in context that the audience are the Gentile nations and not Israel. His ultimate point is that there would be an actual “Book of the Lord” that you are to seek out and read from in End Times. Some Christians today do not believe there is an actual “Book of the Lord” today.

I bring up Brandon’s video to show that if the city of Edom is going to go up in smoke, it will be in the End Times in the future. So an ECT (Eternal Conscous Torment) Christian can make a case that the smoke of the city of Edom can go up for all eternity. But I don’t believe that is valid because Jesus said Heaven and Earth will pass away (Matthew 24:35). Revelation 21:1 says, “for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away;”. So unless one believes the city of Edom is floating in outer space in the future with it’s own atmosphere and with no land attached at the bottom of it so that the smoke can go up for all eternity, we must conclude that “for ever” and “ever” involving the smoke is a metaphor for final destruction.

As for Edom being the city of Mystery Babylon:

Well, I have not done an indepth study on that, and I am a little busy with other discussions and things.
Maybe in the future I may check it out (if the Lord leads me to study it).

But thank you for mentioning it.

May the Lord Jesus Christ bless you this fine day.