Why Hell is not a place of eternal conscious torment.

[Bible Highlighter]

Well, that just says it all right there.

Unless you agree with Catholicism, it does not compute that Catholics gave us the canon. I know Catholics claim that this is so, but that is their claim, and they do make up lots of things that are not true. I know some Protestants who agree with the canon coming from a particular Catholic council, but they fail to realize that they are giving credit to the Catholic church for doing so.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

My approach to biblical studies and context is sound brother, going through the book of Romans now--nothing you typed here offends me for my Father knows my heart, you have your calling in the body of Christ and so I have mine.

I quote Scriptures, most of the time, in context, and no need to elaborate, so if I quote "others" from time to time it would be mostly from Vincent and Robertson, and I have Jewish sources.

I deliberately mentioned Dr. Brown--and have learned a lot from him, eat the chicken, spit out the sticks, as well as Bob Utley and listen to his sermons.

I don't have to look to others to understand my Bible friend, I look to others to CONFIRM what I already know--to learn to discern error from truth.


1 John 2:27

As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.

And as for you (kai humeis). Prolepsis again as in 1Jn_2:24.
Which ye received of him (ho elabete ap' autou). Second aorist active indicative of lambanō, a definite experience, this anointing (chrisma), from Christ himself as in 1Jn_2:20. This Paraclete was promised by Christ (Joh_14:26; Joh_16:13.) and came on the great Pentecost, as they knew, and in the experience of all who yielded themselves to the Holy Spirit.

That any one teach you (hina tis didaskēi humas). Sub-final use of hina and the present active subjunctive of didaskō, “that any one keep on teaching you.”

Teacheth you (didaskei humas). Present active indicative. The Holy Spirit was to bring all things to their remembrance (Joh_14:26) and to bear witness concerning Christ (Joh_15:26; Joh_16:12-15). Yet they need to be reminded of what they already know to be “true” (alēthes) and “no lie” (ouk estin pseudos), according to John’s habit of positive and negative (1Jn_1:5). So he exhorts them to “abide in him” (menete en autōi, imperative active, though same form as the indicative). Precisely so Jesus had urged that the disciples abide in him (Joh_15:4.).
Robertson

I appreciate your concern, but no need for concern.
Later

Again, the problem I see is soaking up what others believe is false and not being a good Berean. I say this because a good Berean will at least see that some verses APPEAR to teach Conditional Immortality (even if they disagree). For example, I can see how some verses APPEAR to teach OSAS at first glance, but the context actually refutes that idea. Much of Romans 9 sounds like Calvinism, but if one were to read the whole thing in context, one would learn that it is not teaching such a thing. There are many things like this in the Bible. So my point here is that just because something in Scripture appears to be a certain way does not mean it is always true. Take for example Jesus’ quote of Scripture that said, “Ye are gods” in John 10:34. While Jesus was making a claim to deity in John 10, He used this quote of Scripture as a form of deflection to protect His mission (in going to the cross).

 

[keithr]

Matthew 25:46 (WORDS OF JESUS) “These will go away into eternal (aionios) punishment, but the righteous into eternal (aionios) life.”

COMMENT - What is Jesus contrasting? Eternal punishment and eternal life. Correct? According to Jesus how long is life? Eternal. According to Jesus how long is punishment? Eternal.

But what is the punishment for sin? It's eternal death, not eternal life of physical torment/torture.

Rom 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Eze 18:4,20 - The soul who sins, he shall die.
Rev 20:14 - Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

 

[David in NJ]

I think you are deluded, I mentioned Brown, Singer--and you don't think I know who they are?

They have nothing to do with ECT--of which I firmly believe.

See how you must twist the Scriptures to fit your belief?

--"potentially be eternal"--yet NOT eternal--
- Jesus clearly states those on His left are to depart into the "ETERNAL FIRE." So Jesus believes in an ETERNAL FIRE. Is that a fair statement based on His own declaration? Secondly, Jesus states this ETERNAL FIRE is a place which has been prepared for the DEVIL. So that begs a question -- If ETERNAL FIRE is not real, then will the devil be let out of that place at some point in the future? Clearly there is no Scripture that supports that premise.

In fact John records the devil's fate in Revelation 20:10+ "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." How long will the devil be tormented according to John? These passages strongly support the premise that eternal fire will last forever, throughout eternity.

Matthew 25:46 (WORDS OF JESUS) “These will go away into eternal (aionios) punishment, but the righteous into eternal (aionios) life.”

COMMENT - What is Jesus contrasting? Eternal punishment and eternal life. Correct? According to Jesus how long is life? Eternal. According to Jesus how long is punishment? Eternal.

Simple.

In other words, the Bible does not REALLY mean "forever"--it is now "changed" into "completeness" and "totality"
Who is twisting Scriptures now?

Please take note I don't believe what @Bible Highlighter is endorsing. [-on this topic]

Has anyone asked the question, 'Why the hell not?'

Personally, i prefer 'Heaven YES! and Hell No!

also i do not find 'heaven to Betsy' to be scriptural.

 

[Jack]

Right, I fear YHVH, any good news?

Yes indeed! Those who fear God will receive mercy!

What am I to do?--lead me step by step as to what I must do and what God can do--fear YHVH and keep His mitzvot--anything else?

Ecc 12:13

Let us hear the sof (conclusion) of the whole matter; Fear HaElohim, and of His commandments be shomer mitzvot; for this is the whole duty of haAdam.

Now what?

Study the Bible!

 

[Johann]

Yes indeed! Those who fear God will receive mercy!

Study the Bible!

So you are not able to lead me to salvation in Christ as written in Scriptures?--maybe it is just for the elect-maybe I'm not part of the elect?

Hmm
Enjoy your day.
J.

 

[Enoch111]

But what is the punishment for sin? It's eternal death, not eternal life of physical torment/torture.

Well what do you think "the Second Death" is? It is eternal "death" in the form of eternal torment. So why do people love to twist the Scriptures?

 

[Jack]

So you are not able to lead me to salvation in Christ as written in Scriptures?

It's not so difficult. It's just that the majority of humans reject Jesus of the Bible.

--maybe it is just for the elect-maybe I'm not part of the elect?

Time will tell for sure.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Well what do you think "the Second Death" is? It is eternal "death" in the form of eternal torment. So why do people love to twist the Scriptures?

But friend. You are enforcing a metaphorical interpretation upon the Second Death when we know that the FIrst Death is literal. If we die on this Earth, it will not be metaphorical but it will be literal. In other words, the Second Death should not even be called a Second Death if it is not related to the First Death. It would not be a true sequel. I mean, have ever seen or heard about one of those movies that is totally unrelated to the original movie and yet, they label it as a sequel? That’s kind of what ECT believers are doing here with the Second Death.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Well what do you think "the Second Death" is? It is eternal "death" in the form of eternal torment. So why do people love to twist the Scriptures?

Whenever we see “for ever” or “for ever and ever” in the Bible, we have to realize that it is a metaphor taken from Isaiah 34:10.

Isaiah 34:10

”It shall not be quenched night nor day;​

the smoke thereof shall go up for ever:​

from generation to generation it shall lie waste;​

none shall pass through it for ever and ever.”​

Isaiah 34 is a prophecy that takes place during the End Times in Revelation (See this YouTube video here to see the connected verses in Revelation to Isaiah 34).

How do we know it is a metaphor?

Well, Isaiah 34:10 is talking about the destruction of the city of Edom. But will the smoke of Edom go up for ever starting in the End Times in Revelation for all eternity?

Mystery Babylon will also have her smoke go up for ever and ever (Revelation 19:3).
Are we to assume that the city of Mystery Babylon will be on fire and give smoke for all eternity?

Jesus says Heaven and earth will pass away (Matthew 24:35), and Revelation 21:1 says, “for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; “. So it’s not possible for these cities that are on our current Earth to keep putting off smoke for all eternity (if the Earth will pass away). So this dispells the notion that “for ever” must mean “for all eternity.” There are other examples of this in Scripture, as well. But I believe that ECT has been fed by so many today, and it is hammered down into our minds repeatedly, it just becomes the accepted position and nobody searches out the truth on the matter involving the Bible.

 

[Jack]

Whenever we see “for ever” or “for ever and ever” in the Bible, we have to realize that it is a metaphor taken from Isaiah 34:10.

Isaiah 34:10

”It shall not be quenched night nor day;​

the smoke thereof shall go up for ever:​

from generation to generation it shall lie waste;​

none shall pass through it for ever and ever.”​

Isaiah 34 is a prophecy that takes place during the End Times in Revelation (See this YouTube video here to see the connected verses in Revelation to Isaiah 34).

How do we know it is a metaphor?

Well, Isaiah 34:10 is talking about the destruction of the city of Edom. But will the smoke of Edom go up for ever starting in the End Times in Revelation for all eternity?

Mystery Babylon will also have her smoke go up for ever and ever (Revelation 19:3).
Are we to assume that the city of Mystery Babylon will be on fire and give smoke for all eternity?

Jesus says Heaven and earth will pass away (Matthew 24:35), and Revelation 21:1 says, “for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; “. So it’s not possible for these cities that are on our current Earth to keep putting off smoke for all eternity (if the Earth will pass away). So this dispells the notion that “for ever” must means “for all eternity.” There are other examples of this in Scripture, as well.

Should we believe you or Jesus?

Jesus said, "They will be tormented day and night FOREVER and EVER"!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Should we believe you or Jesus?

Jesus said, "They will be tormented day and night FOREVER and EVER"!

Isaiah 34:10 is talking about the city of Edom and how the smoke will be going up forever. Do you believe this smoke will go up for all eternity? If so… then how is that possible seeing Jesus said Heaven and Earth will pass away? Will the city of Edom be floating on a chunk of rock (with atmosphere) in space with the smoke still pouring out from that city? That’s seems highly unlikely. That would mean the Earth in some way would not have passed away completely then.

Besides….

Forever Does Not Always Mean Forever in the Bible

In fact, I heard a pastor once say that the best way to interpret the Bible is to let the Bible do the interpreting for you.

In other words, the word "forever" (and it's related words) does not always mean forever in the Bible. “Forever” can be talking about "forever" here on this Earth (as long as someone lives) or in having a sense of "completeness" or "totality" for a specific thing). For what do you make of the following verses below that say that "forever" (or it's related words) is not forever?

​

• In Genesis 13:15 the land of Canaan is given to Israel “forever”.​

​

• The Law is to be a statute “forever” (Exodus 12:24; Exodus 27:21; Exodus 28:43).​

​

• Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude 1:7) until -- God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom" (Ezekiel 16:53-55).​

​

• Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jeremiah 30:12) until -- the Lord "will restore health" and heal her wounds (Jeremiah 30:17).​

​

• The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Micah 1:9) until -- Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ezekiel 16:53).​

​

• Ammon is to become a "wasteland forever" and "rise no more" (Zephaniah 2:9, Jeremiah 25:27 until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of the Ammonites" (Jeremiah 49:6).​

​

• An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation "forever" until -- the tenth generation (Deuteronomy 23:3):​

​

• Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting" until -- they "were shattered" Habakkuk 3:6).​

​

• The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting" priesthood (Exodus 40:15), that is-until-it was superceded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews 7:14-18).​

​

• Many translations of the Bible inform us that God would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings 8:13), until -- the Temple was destroyed.​

​

• The children of Israel were to "observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant" (Exodus 31:16)-until -- Paul states there remains "another day" of Sabbath rest for the people of God (Hebrews 4:8-9).​

​

• The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant" (Leviticus 24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Corinthians 3:11-13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).​

​

• The fire for Israel's sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never to be put out. It shall be a "perpetual" until -- Christ, the Lamb of God, dies for our sins.​

​

Hell. We now have a better covenant established on better promises (Leviticus 6:12-13, Hebrews 8:6-13).​

​

• God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah "forever" until--the Lord delivers him from the large fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6-10; Jonah 1:17); Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jeremiah 25:27) until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of Egypt" (Ezekiel 29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam" (Jeremiah 49:39).​

​

• "Moab is destroyed" (Jeremiah 48:4, Jeremiah 48:42) until--the Lord "will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jeremiah 48:47).​

​

• Israel's judgment lasts "forever" until -- the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Isaiah 32:13-15).​

​

• The King James Bible, as well as many others, tells us that a bond slave was to serve his master "forever" (Exodus 21:6), until -- his death.​

​

• “Eternal” (Greek aionia, αιονια) is sometimes used of a limited (not endless) period of time. But the most common use is illustrated in 2 Corinthians 4:18 where it is contrasted with “temporal” and in Philemon 1:15 where it is contrasted with “for a while.”​

So the word "forever" as used in the Bible is true. It does mean "forever" but it is talking in "forever" under the context of within either a temporary Covenant, or here upon this Earth (which is temporal), or within the Lake of Fire (Which is also a temporary place). In Philemon 1:15: Paul mentioned to Philemon how Onesimus was going to return back to him (his master) forever.

Obviously Onesimus is not an immortal man still living upon the Earth with his master (Philemon) today. He was returning back to his master forever within the context of their temporary lives upon the Earth.


Source used:
(Please take note that I do not agree with everything these Christian authors believe, say, or do).
Apttpteach

 

[Jack]

Isaiah 34:10 is talking about the city of Edom and how the smoke will be going up forever. Do you believe this smoke will go up for all eternity? If so… then how is that possible seeing Jesus said Heaven and Earth will pass away? Will the city of Edom be floating on a chunk of rock (with atmosphere) in space with the smoke still pouring out from that city? That’s seems highly unlikely. That would mean the Earth in some way would not have passed away completely then.

Besides….

Forever Does Not Always Mean Forever in the Bible

In fact, I believe why most hold to Eternal Torment is because they do not understand that the word "forever" does not always mean "forever" in the Bible. Sure, sometimes the word “forever” can mean “forever,” but not always.

Well, I heard a pastor once say that the best way to interpret the Bible is to let the Bible do the interpreting for you.

In other words, the word "forever" (and it's related words) does not always mean forever in the Bible. “Forever” can be talking about "forever" here on this Earth (as long as someone lives) or in having a sense of "completeness" or "totality" for a specific thing). For what do you make of the following verses below that say that "forever" (or it's related words) is not forever?

• In Genesis 13:15 the land of Canaan is given to Israel “forever”.

• The Law is to be a statute “forever” (Exodus 12:24; Exodus 27:21; Exodus 28:43).

• Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude 1:7) until -- God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom" (Ezekiel 16:53-55).

• Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jeremiah 30:12) until -- the Lord "will restore health" and heal her wounds (Jeremiah 30:17).

• The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Micah 1:9) until -- Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ezekiel 16:53).

• Ammon is to become a "wasteland forever" and "rise no more" (Zephaniah 2:9, Jeremiah 25:27 until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of the Ammonites" (Jeremiah 49:6).

• An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation "forever" until -- the tenth generation (Deuteronomy 23:3):

• Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting" until -- they "were shattered" Habakkuk 3:6).

• The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting" priesthood (Exodus 40:15), that is-until-it was superceded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews 7:14-18).

• Many translations of the Bible inform us that God would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings 8:13), until -- the Temple was destroyed.

• The children of Israel were to "observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant" (Exodus 31:16)-until -- Paul states there remains "another day" of Sabbath rest for the people of God (Hebrews 4:8-9).

• The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant" (Leviticus 24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Corinthians 3:11-13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).

• The fire for Israel's sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never to be put out. It shall be a "perpetual" until -- Christ, the Lamb of God, dies for our sins.

Hell. We now have a better covenant established on better promises (Leviticus 6:12-13, Hebrews 8:6-13).

• God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah "forever" until--the Lord delivers him from the large fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6-10; Jonah 1:17); Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jeremiah 25:27) until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of Egypt" (Ezekiel 29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam" (Jeremiah 49:39).

• "Moab is destroyed" (Jeremiah 48:4, Jeremiah 48:42) until--the Lord "will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jeremiah 48:47).

• Israel's judgment lasts "forever" until -- the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Isaiah 32:13-15).

• The King James Bible, as well as many others, tells us that a bond slave was to serve his master "forever" (Exodus 21:6), until -- his death.

• “Eternal” (Greek aionia, αιονια) is sometimes used of a limited (not endless) period of time. But the most common use is illustrated in 2 Corinthians 4:18 where it is contrasted with “temporal” and in Philemon 1:15 where it is contrasted with “for a while.”


So the word "forever" as used in the Bible is true. It does mean "forever" but it is talking in "forever" under the context of within either a temporary Covenant, or here upon this Earth (which is temporal), or within the Lake of Fire (Which is also a temporary place). In Philemon 1:15: Paul mentioned to Philemon how Onesmith was going to return back to him (his master) forever.

Obviously Onesmith is not an immortal man still living upon the Earth with his master (Philemon) today. He was returning back to his master forever within the context of their temporary lives upon the Earth.


Source used:
(Please take note that I do not agree with everything these Christian authors believe, say, or do).
Apttpteach

Do you believe in "eternal" life? Then you must believe in "eternal" punishment in Hell fire.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Do you believe in "eternal" life? Then you must believe in "eternal" punishment in Hell fire.

First, please go back and read the points I made. If you don’t it just seems like you are ignoring the truth of God’s Word.

Second, what does “eternal judgment” mean in Hebrews 6:2?
It’s pretty simple; God judges, and the result is everlasting. Few traditionalists (i.e. Eternal Torment proponents), if any, argue that this verse teaches that God is continually judging for eternity, banging his gavel and repeatedly declaring saved or unsaved the same finite number of existent people. But wait a minute; it doesn’t say “the eternal results of judgment.” It says “eternal judgment.” Following the reasoning applied to Matthew 25:46, this verse must teach that God is continually in the act of judging! In other words, the consequences of the punishment are everlasting, and not the act of punishing that is ongoing. In fact, if we compare Scripture with Scripture, we discover exactly what this “everlasting punishment” actually is.

In 2 Thessalonians 1:9. It says,

“Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord,​

and from the glory of his power;” (KJV).​

So the wicked will be destroyed. Their everlasting punishment is…. everlasting destruction! Destruction means it is not around anymore. Something that is destroyed is no more. If I tell you I will destroy a piece of paper, I will either shred it, or burn it, etc.; It will be no more from what it used to be. It will cease to function in the manner that it was. It was destroyed.

 

[Jack]

First, please go back and read the points I made. If you don’t it just seems like you are ignoring the truth of God’s Word.

Second, what does “eternal judgment” mean in Hebrews 6:2?
It’s pretty simple; God judges, and the result is everlasting. Few traditionalists (i.e. Eternal Torment proponents), if any, argue that this verse teaches that God is continually judging for eternity, banging his gavel and repeatedly declaring saved or unsaved the same finite number of existent people. But wait a minute; it doesn’t say “the eternal results of judgment.” It says “eternal judgment.” Following the reasoning applied to Matthew 25:46, this verse must teach that God is continually in the act of judging! In other words, the consequences of the punishment are everlasting, and not the act of punishing that is ongoing. In fact, if we compare Scripture with Scripture, we discover exactly what this “everlasting punishment” actually is.

In 2 Thessalonians 1:9. It says,

“Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord,​

and from the glory of his power;” (KJV).​

So the wicked will be destroyed. Their everlasting punishment is…. everlasting destruction! Destruction means it is not around anymore. Something that is destroyed is no more. If I tell you I will destroy a piece of paper, I will either shred it, or burn it, etc.; It will be no more from what it used to be. It will cease to function in the manner that it was. It was destroyed.

If you don't believe what Jesus said about "eternal punishment" then you can't believe what He said about "eternal life". They are the same Greek word.

 

[keithr]

Well what do you think "the Second Death" is? It is eternal "death" in the form of eternal torment. So why do people love to twist the Scriptures?

Psalms 146:4 (MKJV):

(4) His breath goes forth; he returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.​

Eccliastes 9:5 (WEB):

(5) For the living know that they will die, but the dead don’t know anything, neither do they have any more a reward; for their memory is forgotten.​

If all your thoughts perish then you cannot experience anything, including "torment". Why do you twist the Scriptures to try and make death become torment? It even clearly explains that the symbolic "lake of fire" is representative of death - Revelation 20:14 (WEB):

(14) Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.​

Death is death, not eternal torment. You are really twisting plain Scripture if you believe that.

God said to Jeremiah, Jeremiah 7:30-31 and 32:35 (WEB):

(30) “For the children of Judah have done that which is evil in my sight,” says Yahweh. “They have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to defile it.​

(31) They have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I didn’t command, nor did it come into my mind.​

(35) They built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through fire to Molech; which I didn’t command them. It didn’t even come into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.”​

So God considered sacrificing people by burning them to be an abomination and a sin, and such thoughts have never entered God's mind. So we should not consider it possible that would God perform an eternal miracle of preserving people alive in fire, preventing them from being consumed by fire yet still able to experience the agony of their bodies being consumed by fire, as that would be an insult to God and would defile His name, and He would never think to do such a thing.

1 John 4:16 (WEB):

(16) We know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and he who remains in love remains in God, and God remains in him.​

Love would not condemn anyone to eternal torment.

If the punishment for sin was eternal torment/torture/agony, then that is what Jesus would have had to suffer to pay for our sins. But that is not what happened. 1 Corinthians 15:3 (WEB):

(3) For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,​

Psalms 30:5 (WEB):

(5) For his anger is but for a moment. His favor is for a lifetime. Weeping may stay for the night, but joy comes in the morning.​

Isaiah 54:8 (WEB):

(8) In overflowing wrath I hid my face from you for a moment; but with everlasting loving kindness I will have mercy on you,” says Yahweh your Redeemer.​

2 Peter 3:9 (WEB):

(9) The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some count slowness; but is patient with us, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.​

 

[Jack]

Psalms 146:4 (MKJV):

(4) His breath goes forth; he returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.​

Eccliastes 9:5 (WEB):

(5) For the living know that they will die, but the dead don’t know anything, neither do they have any more a reward; for their memory is forgotten.​

If all your thoughts perish then you cannot experience anything, including "torment". Why do you twist the Scriptures to try and make death become torment? It even clearly explains that the symbolic "lake of fire" is representative of death - Revelation 20:14 (WEB):

(14) Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.​

Death is death, not eternal torment. You are really twisting plain Scripture if you believe that.

God said to Jeremiah, Jeremiah 7:30-31 and 32:35 (WEB):

(30) “For the children of Judah have done that which is evil in my sight,” says Yahweh. “They have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to defile it.​

(31) They have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I didn’t command, nor did it come into my mind.​

(35) They built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through fire to Molech; which I didn’t command them. It didn’t even come into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.”​

So God considered sacrificing people by burning them to be an abomination and a sin, and such thoughts have never entered God's mind. So we should not consider it possible that would God perform an eternal miracle of preserving people alive in fire, preventing them from being consumed by fire yet still able to experience the agony of their bodies being consumed by fire, as that would be insult to God and would defile His name, and He would never think to do such a thing.

1 John 4:16 (WEB):

(16) We know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and he who remains in love remains in God, and God remains in him.​

Love would not condemn anyone to eternal torment.

If the punishment for sin was eternal torment/torture/agony, then that is what Jesus would have had to suffer to pay for our sins. But that is not what happened. 1 Corinthians 15:3 (WEB):

(3) For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,​

Psalms 30:5 (WEB):

(5) For his anger is but for a moment. His favor is for a lifetime. Weeping may stay for the night, but joy comes in the morning.​

Isaiah 54:8 (WEB):

(8) In overflowing wrath I hid my face from you for a moment; but with everlasting loving kindness I will have mercy on you,” says Yahweh your Redeemer.​

2 Peter 3:9 (WEB):

(9) The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some count slowness; but is patient with us, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.​

"If you don't believe what Jesus said about "eternal punishment" then you can't believe what He said about "eternal life". They are the same Greek word."

 

[keithr]

"If you don't believe what Jesus said about "eternal punishment" then you can't believe what He said about "eternal life". They are the same Greek word."

See post #343.

 

[Jack]

See post #343.

Yes, I saw that unScriptural post.

Jesus said, "They will be tormented day and night FOREVER and EVER!"

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If you don't believe what Jesus said about "eternal punishment" then you can't believe what He said about "eternal life". They are the same Greek word.

So you believe that when Hebrews 6:2 says, “eternal judgment“ that is in reference to how God will be judging people… “saved” and or “unsaved” for all eternity? You must say, “Yes” if you continue to hold to your current interpretation on Matthew 25:46.