Why Hell is not a place of eternal conscious torment.

[Patrick1966]

What did Jesus save us from?

Jesus (God) saves people from God's eternal wrath. Unless one accepts Jesus as their savior Jesus's father will torture them day and night forever and ever and that's because God is loving and merciful but also just and so if one dies in a state of uncertainty about who is Jesus, they will be placed in a cauldron of hot lava and will be BURNED ALIVE forever and ever!!! Praise our loving God!

 

[Johann]

So you didn't read it? It gives clear evidence of the mistranslation.

The mistranslation of what?--giving me two or three quotations?

We are talking about aionios in the plural, not singular.

Olam . This word is derived from 'alam (to hide), and means the hidden time or age, like aion , by which the word, or its Adjective aionios , it is generally rendered in the Sept. In Ezra 4 and Dan. 2-7, the Chaldee form 'alam is used. There are 448 passages where the word occurs.

i. It is doubled, "from 'olam to 'olam " in 11 places, and is translated :--
1. "for ever and ever" in 1Ch_16:36; 1Ch_29:10. Neh_9:5. Jer_7:7; Jer_25:5. Dan_2:20; Dan_7:18.
2. "from everlasting to everlasting" in Psa_41:13; Psa_90:2; Psa_103:17; Psa_106:48.

ii. It is used in the plural 11 times, and translated :--
1. "for ever" in 1Ki_8:13. 2Ch_6:2. Psa_61:4; Psa_77:7.
2. "everlasting" in Psa_145:13 (see marg.). Isa_26:4. (see marg.); Isa_45:17. Dan_9:24.
3. "of ancient times or old times" in Psa_77:5. Ecc_1:10.
4. "of old" in Isa_51:9.

Etc., etc.--let me know if you are looking for a mature, constructive "debate"-or forbear.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

 

[Johann]

Jesus (God) saves people from God's eternal wrath. Unless one accepts Jesus as their savior Jesus's father will torture them day and night forever and ever and that's because God is loving and merciful but also just and so if one dies in a state of uncertainty about who is Jesus, they will be placed in a cauldron of hot lava and will be BURNED ALIVE forever and ever!!! Praise our loving God!

Forgetting--

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Rom_1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Rom_2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Rom_9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Rom_13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Eph_5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Col_3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

Jas_1:20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.

Rev_14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Rev_14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Rev_15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Rev_15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

Rev_16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

Rev_16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

Rev_19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

yes, YHVH is a holy and a just God, but don't negate His wrath [PRESENTLY abiding on the unbelievers--does it make God unjust?]

 

[Patrick1966]

Etc., etc.--let me know if you are looking for a mature, constructive "debate"-or forbear.

You mean accepting all of your dogma while ignoring the plethora of scripture that teaches that ALL will be with God in the end? No thanks.

 

[Patrick1966]

Rom_1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Yes, forever and ever! God never gets over it. God NEVER forgives the people that didn't get it right while on Earth. He tortures them FOREVER! Praise our loving and merciful God!

 

[Johann]

You mean accepting all of your dogma while ignoring the plethora of scripture that teaches that ALL will be with God in the end? No thanks.

You really want to tell me "the whole world" will be saved in the end?

Which Church are you from?

 

[Patrick1966]

You really want to tell me "the whole world" will be saved in the end?

Your disagreement isn't with me; it's with God. You reject God's word.

Philippians 2:10-11 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Romans 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

 

[Johann]

Yes, forever and ever! God never gets over it. God NEVER forgives the people that didn't get it right while on Earth. He tortures them FOREVER! Praise our loving and merciful God!

File your disappointment to YHVH, and Christ Jesus,--


1 Corinthians 3:16

Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

1 Corinthians 6:19

Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?

2 Corinthians 6:16

Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said,
“I will dwell in them and walk among them;
And I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Ezekiel 36:27

I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

Isaiah 63:11

Then His people remembered the days of old, of Moses.
Where is He who brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of His flock?
Where is He who put His Holy Spirit in the midst of them,

2 Timothy 1:14

Guard, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasure which has been entrusted to you.

Acts 6:5

The statement found approval with the whole congregation; and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit, and Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas and Nicolas, a proselyte from Antioch.

Ephesians 5:18

And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit,

Romans 8:11

But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

John 16:13

But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

Galatians 5:18

But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

Galatians 5:22

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

Romans 8:9

However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

Romans 8:15

For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!”

Galatians 4:6

Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”

1 John 2:27

As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.

J.

 

[Johann]

Your disagreement isn't with me; it's with God. You reject God's word.

Philippians 2:10-11 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Romans 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

--and these are the Scripture references to "prove" the WHOLE world will be saved?!

 

[Patrick1966]

If forever Hell is true then @St. SteVen is correct that Jesus saves us from God. LOL. What a warped "theology".

 

[Patrick1966]

--and these are the Scripture references to "prove" the WHOLE world will be saved?!

I'm just going by the word of God, which is a darn shame because I'm hoping that God will let me help him to torture the bad people that are chained up in Hell FOREVER. Maybe you and I can take turns torturing them. We'd be doing God's work, right? You in?

 

[Johann]

I'm just going by the word of God, which is a darn shame because I'm hoping that God will let me help him to torture the bad people that are chained up in Hell FOREVER. Maybe you and I can take turns torturing them. We'd be doing God's work, right? You in?

This is very childish and an immature response.
Have good day.
J.

 

[Patrick1966]

This is very childish and an immature response.

No, my response demonstrates the ABSURDITY of the twisted, warped, ECT "theology".

Now, please, pray for me that Jesus will save me from God. Thanks.

 

[Johann]

No, my response demonstrates the ABSURDITY of the twisted, warped, ECT "theology".

Now, please, pray for me that Jesus will save me from God. Thanks.

So your "all loving " YHVH is NOT allowed to let His wrath abide upon unbelievers?

Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;

Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Eph 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

The one having problems with Scriptures is you--no question--and quoting "selective verses" to even negate the wrath of God, is you.

Man, now I've heard it all!
J.

 

[Patrick1966]

So your "all loving " YHVH is NOT allowed to let His wrath abide upon unbelievers?

Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;

Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Eph 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

The one having problems with Scriptures is you--no question--and quoting "selective verses" to even negate the wrath of God, is you.

Man, now I've heard it all!
J.

Brother, I've simply said that God doesn't make people suffer FOREVER.

 

[keithr]

"They will be tormented day and night forever and ever".

We've had this discussion before (last September - What Are we Getting Saved From). This was my reply then:

So what of the phrase "they will be tormented day and night forever and ever"? We know from chapter 17 and other verses of Scripture that tell of the destruction of Satan (Hebrews 2:14, Ezekiel 28:18-19) that Satan and the beast will be destroyed, so is 'tormented' a valid translation? The Greek word translated as tormented is βασανίζω (basanizo). The Online Bible Greek Lexicon states the first two meanings of it is:​

​

1) to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
2) to question by applying torture​

​

Wiktionary (βάσανος - Wiktionary) states that the word comes from an Egyptian word meaning "a hard stone", and that it means:​

​

1. gold touchstone (stone which is rubbed on gold to ascertain its authenticity by leaving a yellow streak)
2. (figuratively)

1. test, trial (whether a thing is genuine or real)
2. inquire by torture​

​

Therefore it could be translated as "they will be a touchstone day and night forever and ever", meaning that throughout eternity we can look back at and examine the acts of Satan and the man made kingdoms, institutions, false religions, apostate Church, etc. and see that they were evil and sinful, and do not result in joy and happiness - they'll be a lesson for us for all eternity. (The dictionary definition of touchstone is "a test or criterion for the qualities of a thing".)​

 

[Johann]

Brother, I've simply said that God doesn't make people suffer FOREVER.

--if we take the Bible seriously--

 

[robert derrick]

I am in disagreement with you, and the fact you debunk sound scholarship.

O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:

Scholarship is not the problem. Pseudo scholarship covering false doctrine is the problem.

If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.

Scripture is written by God to strip away all the lies and pretence of corrupted minds.

Just look at all the complex arguments brought in here, just to say, No, Jesus is wrong. Hell hath no torment. No, there is no eternal punishment.

See how simple it is to reject Scripture? It's just as simple to teach Scripture rightly: Hell hath torment, and there is eternal punishment.

I prefer honesty, rather than long-winded explanations about how God doesn't really mean exactly what He says. And such arguments are always made complex. Why? To confuse and distort of course. They purposely move away from simple words of Scripture, and get people ensnared in all their lying arguments. In the end, the simple truth is left behind in the smoke and fog of warfare against God's written word.

And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

Teaching of Scripture is simple: Just quote the Scripture and give the obvious sense of it.

So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.

Deep diving into original languages is not necessary to prove the doctrine of Christ. It can be interesting, challenging, and intellectually stimulating, but not necessary. And false teachers take pride in their manipulation of words, for the express purpose of rejecting Scripture as written.

Look at all the volumes of proud learning, that some people wondrously display for themselves, just to say, No. The Word was not God.

When I see someone going to Greek, Hebrew, or manuscript arguments, then I'm looking for the lie in the pudding. And then those same people get upset, when their flowery sciences are stripped of all their perfume, and the truth of the lie they are teaching, is bared to the bone.

 

[robert derrick]

On this verse I can agree--pity Christians are always at each others throat.

Disputing in the Scriptures is what the apostles did, and what Christians have right to do.

Only those who take it personal, go at people's throats over it. And it's usually the ones teaching their own false doctrine to justify themselves in sin.

I never question anyone's Christian confession, and yet I am called a devil, because I agree with James, that faith without works is dead, and no man is justified by dead faith alone.

See how simple it is to teach what's written? The whole doctrine of justification is efficiently summed up. Nio need for argument, nor manuscript debates. We either believe what is written or we don't. And then those who do believe, and do the word, are justified with Christ.

Those who don't believe the plain words, and yet want to be justified without works, go on to produce volumes for reasons why God is wrong, and contradicts Himself elsewhere.

It's called doctrinal justification for hypocrites. People really do think, that if they can produce a convincing enough sounding doctrine, then they can secure themselves in salvation and justification forever. And yet Peter says, the one way to ensure our justification in Christ, is by doing those things necessary not to fall back into sinning.

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Such Christians don't read that, and then are glad to learn they can do something real, so that they can be sure of the resurrection of the blessed. No, they prefer to be doctrinally self-preserved by their own imaginative faith alone.