Why Hell is not a place of eternal conscious torment.

[Johann]

"And the devil who deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] both the beast and the false prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night for [the purpose of] the ages of ages."

1) "And the devil that deceived them," (kai ho diabolos ho planon autous) "And the Devil, the one deceiving or deluding them;” Rev_20:3; Rev_20:7-8. Though the Devil reigns now, he will not deceive and reign in hell.

2) "Was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone," (eblethe eis ten limnen tou puros kai theiou) "He was cast (thrown down) into the lake of fire and sulfur," fire and billowing brimstone, Rev_14:10; Rev_19:20.

3) "Where the beast and the false prophet are," (hopou kai to theriou kai ho pseudoprophetes) "Where (there) were (existed) the beast and the false prophet," Mat_25:41; Rev_16:13, in the place prepared for the Devil and his angels and them that forget God, Psa_9:17.

4) "And they shall be tormented day and night " (kai basanisthesontai hemeras kai nuktos) "And they will be tormented, (caused to suffer consciously) day and night," continuously, without interruption, where there will be no soul rest forever, day and night, Rev_14:10; Mar_9:44.

5) "For ever and ever," (eis tous aionas ton aionon) "Into (and with relation to) the ages of the ages," endless time or duration, without cessation, forever. There the conscience, the memorex system of the soul, shall remember in torments of remorse, rejected love and spurned mercy forever, Luk_16:25; Luk_16:31.


βασανισθησονται--is not past, as you said--but Future, Passive, Indicative, Plural--

CONJ|and βασανισθήσονταιG928|G5701|V-FPI-3P|they will be tormented ἡμέραςG2250|N-GSF|day καὶG2532|CONJ|and νυκτὸςG3571|N-GSF|night εἰςG1519|PREP|to τοὺςG3588|T-APM|the αἰῶναςG165|N-APM|ages τῶνG3588|T-GPM|of the αἰώνωνG165|N-GPM|ages.

1. 
   They shall be tormented (basanisthēsontai). Return to the prophetic future of Rev_20:7, Rev_20:8. For basanizō see Rev_9:5; Rev_14:10. For “day and night” (hēmeras kai nuktos) see Rev_4:8; Rev_7:15; Rev_12:10; Rev_14:11. For “for ever and ever” (eis tous aiōnas ton aiōnōn) see Rev_1:6, Rev_1:18; Rev_4:9, Rev_4:10; Rev_5:13; Rev_7:12; Rev_10:6; Rev_11:15, etc. The devil was cast down from heaven (Rev_12:9), then imprisoned (Rev_20:2.), now he received his final doom.

As to aion--εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων. Lit. “to the ages of the ages,” as strong an expression for absolute endlessness as Biblical language affords.

και νυκτος εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων

Times--Plural, Definite Article, Masculine--times-Definite Article, Genitive, Plural, Masculine

I go with what stands written, 2 Definite Articles and a Genitive and 2 plurals--for ever and the ever!

 

[robert derrick]

3. Explaining Mark 9:44:

“Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.” (Mark 9:44).

In Mark 9:44, and Mark 9:48, Jesus quotes Isaiah 66:24, which is a part of Scripture where Isaiah tells us about how the carcases of the wicked will be viewed by those who worship the Lord (i.e. the saints) (see Isaiah 66:23); This event takes place in the future “New Earth” in God’s upcoming kingdom (see Isaiah 66:22).

22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make,
shall remain before me, saith the Lord,
so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another,
and from one sabbath to another,
shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
24 And they shall go forth, and look
upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me:
for their worm shall not die,
neither shall their fire be quenched;
and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
(Isaiah 66:22-24).


Okay. Let's go over this passage in more detail. So Isaiah says that “they (referring to the ‘all flesh’ mentioned in Isaiah 66:23) shall go forth, and look upon the CARCASES (not ‘immortal living souls’) of the men that have transgressed against me: for their WORM (the maggot that feeds on those ‘carcases’) shall not die, neither shall their fire (the fire that burns up those ‘carcases’) be quenched: and they (the people that have transgressed against God) shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.”

Webster’s 1913 Dictionary:

Carcass

1. n. A dead body, whether of man or beast; a corpse;


If we are to believe words in our own dictionary, we must believe that when Isaiah 66:24 talks about carcases, he is simply referring to dead bodies or corpses, and not immortal souls.

Okay. So when Jesus talks about the fire not being quenched, and the worm not dying in Mark 9:44, and Mark 9:48, He is not referring to anything other than what the passage in Isaiah 66 itself taught. So Mark 9:44, & Mark 9:48 must mean the same thing that Isaiah 66:24 means.

All of this just to say Jesus isn't speaking of souls, but must only be speaking of the body, since he used the same words of Isaiah pertaining to endless time.

There's good instruction here on prophecy of old pertaining to the physical body.

However, Jesus isn't talking about corpses on earth, but of souls in hell.

Instead of accepting the NT doctrine of Christ, that turns man's attention to the eternal soul, rather than the mortal body, you turn it back to the body, as though the soul is the mortal body.

The only part of Isaiah that 'must pertain' to Mark, is only the part Jesus speaks of: the doctrine of endlessness.

OT prophecy is of events on the earth. NT prophecy confirms and clarifies those temporary events on the earth, with eternal consequences to the soul.

Your interpretation of NT prophecy applies the natural mind to spiritual consequences, so that as on earth, they only appear to be endless, and with no knowledge of it at all.

NT prophecy interpreted without NT doctrine of the soul, is bound to be natural minded, and void of the eternal things of the Spirit.

 

[Jack]

Yes Jack--I concur--but preach the whole salvation in Christ and the Pauline letters.
J.

The message of the Bible is, FEAR GOD!

 

[Jack]

Revelation 20:14 (WEB):

(14) Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.​

"They will be tormented day and night forever and ever".

 

[Johann]

The message of the Bible is, FEAR GOD!

Right, I fear YHVH, any good news? What am I to do?--lead me step by step as to what I must do and what God can do--fear YHVH and keep His mitzvot--anything else?

Ecc 12:13

Let us hear the sof (conclusion) of the whole matter; Fear HaElohim, and of His commandments be shomer mitzvot; for this is the whole duty of haAdam.

Now what?

 

[amigo de christo]

Right, I fear YHVH, any good news? What am I to do?--lead me step by step as to what I must do and what God can do--fear YHVH and keep His mitzvot--anything else?

Ecc 12:13

Let us hear the sof (conclusion) of the whole matter; Fear HaElohim, and of His commandments be shomer mitzvot; for this is the whole duty of haAdam.

Now what?

now for the defintion of what GOD has called fear . TO depart from evil .
the fear of the LORD is to depart from evil . Thus any rejoicing in evil does not have the fear of the LORD .
Does not have the knowledge of the MOST HOLY , does not have the wisdom of GOD .
Lift those hands and praise the KING , FOR IN CHRIST He is our wisdom , santification , righteousness and our salvation .
Point to CHRIST till the last breath ebbs out those lungs . And when we point to CHRIST
let us always understand , that if any christ or jesus contradicts the CHRIST and JESUS of said bible , well that one aint gonna save .

 

[Bible Highlighter]

1) "And the devil that deceived them," (kai ho diabolos ho planon autous) "And the Devil, the one deceiving or deluding them;” Rev_20:3; Rev_20:7-8. Though the Devil reigns now, he will not deceive and reign in hell.

2) "Was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone," (eblethe eis ten limnen tou puros kai theiou) "He was cast (thrown down) into the lake of fire and sulfur," fire and billowing brimstone, Rev_14:10; Rev_19:20.

3) "Where the beast and the false prophet are," (hopou kai to theriou kai ho pseudoprophetes) "Where (there) were (existed) the beast and the false prophet," Mat_25:41; Rev_16:13, in the place prepared for the Devil and his angels and them that forget God, Psa_9:17.

4) "And they shall be tormented day and night " (kai basanisthesontai hemeras kai nuktos) "And they will be tormented, (caused to suffer consciously) day and night," continuously, without interruption, where there will be no soul rest forever, day and night, Rev_14:10; Mar_9:44.

5) "For ever and ever," (eis tous aionas ton aionon) "Into (and with relation to) the ages of the ages," endless time or duration, without cessation, forever. There the conscience, the memorex system of the soul, shall remember in torments of remorse, rejected love and spurned mercy forever, Luk_16:25; Luk_16:31.


βασανισθησονται--is not past, as you said--but Future, Passive, Indicative, Plural--

CONJ|and βασανισθήσονταιG928|G5701|V-FPI-3P|they will be tormented ἡμέραςG2250|N-GSF|day καὶG2532|CONJ|and νυκτὸςG3571|N-GSF|night εἰςG1519|PREP|to τοὺςG3588|T-APM|the αἰῶναςG165|N-APM|ages τῶνG3588|T-GPM|of the αἰώνωνG165|N-GPM|ages.

1. 
   They shall be tormented (basanisthēsontai). Return to the prophetic future of Rev_20:7, Rev_20:8. For basanizō see Rev_9:5; Rev_14:10. For “day and night” (hēmeras kai nuktos) see Rev_4:8; Rev_7:15; Rev_12:10; Rev_14:11. For “for ever and ever” (eis tous aiōnas ton aiōnōn) see Rev_1:6, Rev_1:18; Rev_4:9, Rev_4:10; Rev_5:13; Rev_7:12; Rev_10:6; Rev_11:15, etc. The devil was cast down from heaven (Rev_12:9), then imprisoned (Rev_20:2.), now he received his final doom.

As to aion--εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων. Lit. “to the ages of the ages,” as strong an expression for absolute endlessness as Biblical language affords.

και νυκτος εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων

Times--Plural, Definite Article, Masculine--times-Definite Article, Genitive, Plural, Masculine

I go with what stands written, 2 Definite Articles and a Genitive and 2 plurals--for ever and the ever!

I don’t trust your Greek or the Greek of those you quote. Why? Well, chances are you are not a Greek expert. Chances are they are not Greek experts, either and they have a bias to their tradition of ECT because that is all they have ever known and it has been ingrained in them without question. You need to call in the foremost top Greek expert in the world or the top 10 to see if the Greek work you post here is actually right. I am pretty sure if I show you a page of Greek you will not be able to read it or speak it. This is also biblical Greek which is different than Modern Greek, as well. So the experts need to know both Modern and the biblical form of Greek and be considered an expert in that field. They also cannot have a bias, either. Meaning, they should not have a bias on this topic. It would be a completely unbiased reading here and we know you will not be able to easily get this kind of research unless you spent a lot of time and money to make that happen.

So what do we have as an alternative?

We have the English translated from the Greek. God preserves His words. If not, you can hang up this discussion right now.
Why? Because you and other religious group out there can say the Greek means this or that and you really don’t have any clue because you and those other guys are not fluent in Kione Greek and considered an expert (Who is unbiased).

You also don’t realize that the KJB has archaic words that can at times be very misleading.
This is also something you are not considering here.
Take for example the word “conversation” in Ephesians 4:22 in the King James Bible. It is not referring to speech but behavior. Even other Modern Translations help to update this. But not all Modern Translations catch everything in the KJB and update the wording in the King James Bible properly in every case. Most of the time it is pretty good, but in some things it drops the ball.

In addition, as I stated before you have to be able to show that ECT is morally good and ethical by using a real world example (i.e. parable).
But of course I am sure you will just slide this one under the carpet and hope people will ignore this point (When it is the biggest strike or blow against ECT).

Also, my explanations on the five verses that appear to teach ECT make sense from my viewpoint. You cannot say that it doesn’t. Words can also have various meanings in the Bible. The word “repent” in the Bible has multiple meanings or definitions. But when I talk with Christians today they seem to be ignorant of this fact. They appear to have a “one definition fits for every word” type mentality. Context and looking at the whole counsel of God’s Word should determine the truth here and not a bias or traditional belief that one has held for so long that anything else seems unthinkable. False beliefs can be ingrained into us by them being repeated to us over and over and over and over again. This is why I believe ECT is more about mental conditioning than it is about any kind of good and honest study of the Bible as a whole with the help of God.

I say this because if a child stole a piece of bread in a foreign country and then was tortured alive in an extremely painful way for that crime until the day they died as an old person, you would say that the punishment does not fit the crime. Oh, but because now it is God, somehow justice is just thrown out the window and is different. But Jesus made real world examples to illustrate spiritual truth all the time.

 

[Johann]

I don’t trust your Greek or the Greek of those you quote. Why? Well, chances are you are not a Greek expert. Chances are they are not Greek experts, either and they have a bias to their tradition of ECT because that is all they have ever known and it has been ingrained in them without question. You need to call in the foremost top Greek expert in the world or the top 10 to see if the Greek work you post here is actually right. I am pretty sure if I show you a page of Greek you will not be able to read it or speak it. This is also biblical Greek which is different than Modern Greek, as well. So the experts need to know both Modern and the biblical form of Greek and be considered an expert in that field. They also cannot have a bias, either. Meaning, they should not have a bias on this topic. It would be a completely unbiased reading here and we know you will not be able to easily get this kind of research unless you spent a lot of time and money to make that happen.

You don't? Well, I have a copy of Koine Greek Bible on my table and read it--not Greek scholars?

You honestly want to tell me you don't know of ANY Greek Scholars?!

Show me any page you like in Greek and I can read it--correct, there is a difference in Modern Greek and Koine Greek--I read both--and you need to familiarize yourself with the morphology and parsing/etymology of Greek and Hebrew, as for bias, we ALL have our biases friend, whether you like it or not.

We have the English translated from the Greek. God preserves His words. If not, you can hang up this discussion right now.
Why? Because you and other religious group out there can say the Greek means this or that and you really don’t have any clue because you and those other guys are not fluent in Kione Greek and considered an expert (Who is unbiased).

Yes, we can hang up the phone--no problem, esp. as you class me in a "religious group"

But of course I am sure you will just slide this one under the carpet and hope people will ignore this point (When it is the biggest strike or blow against ECT).

I don't let anything "slide" forever and ever is just that, in the KJV--no need to twist it.

False beliefs can be ingrained into us by them being repeated to us over and over and over and over again. This is why I believe ECT is more about mental conditioning than it is about any kind of good and honest study of the Bible as a whole with the help of God.

Yes, this is called indoctrination--over and over again--sorry friend, we all have our biases, I don't believe in annihilation/soul sleep, but what stands written, Perfect Tense--olemei olamim--forever and ever, no need to twist it.

Personally, I think you were surprised to see the Greek/Hebrew version in the KJV--I read multiple Bibles, not just the KJV.
Shalom
J.

 

[robert derrick]

Wow, more heretics. Great, just what this forum needs…

Why is hell not a place of torment?

Because Jesus says it is, so obviously it can't be.

Isn't it amazing all the pseudo scholarship it takes, just for someone to not believe Jesus? Or not take Him seriously?

O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called.

It's so much better just to be honest about it, if we don't want to believe something in Scripture. It's the only way for God to then help our unbelief.

 

[Keturah]

I post what I post & the word of God states !

 

[robert derrick]

The message of the Bible is, FEAR GOD!

The message of no eternal punishment is, Don't Fear God.

 

[robert derrick]

I post what I post & the word of God states !View attachment 31299

I believe Scripture shows that hell is not of burning bodies, as seen here.

If that were the case, then there would have been no 'conversation' from the tormented rich man to Abraham.

Scripture speaks of hell as place of great darkness, being with chains of darkness, and of wandering stars in blackness forever.

I believe the torment will be of the knowledge, that we are eternally separated and isolated alone from God and any friendship nor fellowship whatsoever.

But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Angels and men are created and made for fellowship and ministry with God, and without that we are all alone and without hope of any life nor happiness whatsoever: it is eternal gloom and depression without hope.

I say the torment of hell is dark flaming chains, holding souls in eternal isolation of black darkness, that is worse than the deepest cave on earth, and wandering alone forever. The smoke of the torment is blacker than any earthly fire can make.

 

[robert derrick]

I really appreciate you responding brother--but I stand with what stands written, eternal is eternal, with numerous other passages confirming this--

Also--when you say "--but the verse doesn't REALLY say that"--alarm bells are going of, but I know that you are sincere and stay true to the Scriptures.

J.

"And I did not truly dig deep on this study myself."

Famous last words, before digging deep to find out how the Bible is not saying, what it just said.

A simple test of credibility with the Scriptures, is that it doesn't take reams of Scholarship, and added Greek-Hebrew lexicons, to teach what is written.

And getting into language arguments with them is only a snare.

How much scholarship does it take to say, There is no eternal punishment?

Honesty is always the best policy, even when refusing to believe what Jesus plainly says.

God can work with simple unbelief, but He can't help those that add scholarship to it, in order to believe the opposite of what is written.

O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:

 

[robert derrick]

Matthew 12:40 (WEB):

(40) For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.​

True. Where the prison of hell is.

 

[gadar]

I remember defending Eternal Torment way back when I first was wet behind the ears in studing the Bible.
Now, I look back and I realize I was just blindiy following what others said and I did not truly dig deep on this study myself.
I remember reading one article when I studied this issue and they said cults believe in Annihialation.
But keep in mind that a blind squirrel can find a nut. Truth is not always determined by a vote of popularity or just because a church is evangelical and good on other topics. There is no church today with a perfect set of doctrines. Scripture and God’s good character must determine the truth on this topic.

I believe in Dualistic Conditional Immortality. This is the biblical view that hell is a real and literal place of torment, but the wicked will be destroyed or erased from existence in the Lake of Fire after the Judgment.

The achilles heel of ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment) is that it cannot be made into a real life parable (or real world example) that demonstrates it to be fair justice. Try as you may, it will just never happen. You will never be able to create a real world example that shows God’s good character and fairness by the idea that He would torture alive others in flames for all eternity for a finite amount of crimes committed. This is important because Jesus accepted the extende Parable of the Canaanite woman about how even the dogs eat the crumbs. If only Jesus could make parables, our Lord would have rebuked her. This means we can also make parables or real world examples to illustrate spiritual truth, too. The Canaanite woman’s parable was also not some fictional event that took place on some fantasy world that does not exist, either. The woman gave our Lord a real world example in reply to Jesus’ parable (real example). Dogs actually do eat crumbs from a table. That is a real truth. But if you cannot demonstrate ECT by a parable in how it is fair in regards to justice then it is totally bankrupt no matter what verses you throw down. In fact, it may shock you, that there really are only five verses that appear to teach ECT, and I have great explanations with them involving Scripture that is not bent towards the popular church view.



Explaining Matthew 25:46:

“And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:46).

What does “eternal judgment” mean in Hebrews 6:2? It’s pretty simple; God judges, and the result is everlasting. Few traditionalists (i.e. Eternal Torment proponents), if any, argue that this verse teaches that God is continually judging for eternity, banging his gavel and repeatedly declaring saved or unsaved the same finite number of existent people. But wait a minute; it doesn’t say “the eternal results of judgment.” It says “eternal judgment.” Following the reasoning applied to Matthew 25:46, this verse must teach that God is continually in the act of judging! In other words, the consequences of the punishment are everlasting, and not the act of punishing that is ongoing. In fact, if we compare Scripture with Scripture, we discover exactly what this“everlasting punishment” actually is.

In 2 Thessalonians 1:9. It says, “Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;” (KJV).

So the wicked will be destroyed. Their everlasting punishment is…. everlasting destruction! (See again 2 Thessalonians 1:9). Destruction means it is not around anymore. Something that is destroyed is no more. If I tell you I will destroy a piece of paper, I will either shred it, or burn it, etc.; It will be no more from what it used to be. It will cease to function in the manner that it was. It was destroyed. So Matthew 25:46 is referring to an everlasting punishment. This punishment has everlasting consequences and it is everlasting destruction (i.e. something that will be no more). Just as there is an “eternal judgment” mentioned in Scripture. A one time judgment with eternal consequences, and not a court like judgment that will stretch out into eternity for all time. Therefore, there will also be an “everlasting punishment” (Matthew 25:46), or a punishment that has everlasting consequences by an “everlasting destruction” (2 Thessalonians 1:9). It will be a destruction or ruin, or end of the wicked that has everlasting consequences.

Now, some try to say that comparing “everlasting life with everlasting punishment” is proof of Eternal Torment.

However, if we were to look more closely at Matthew 25:46:

Everlasting is the parallel (which speaks of the eternal consequences).

Both life and death (destruction, i.e. the punishment) have eternal consequences or effects.

But life and death (punishment) is the contrast.

So the verse is one part parallel and one part contrast.

As I already pointed out, the "everlasting punishment" is said to be "everlasting destruction" in 2 Thessalonians 1:9, which is death.

So the contrast is life (reward) and death (punishment).

And everlasting is the parallel.

Anyways, if ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment) was true, the verse would say,

"And these shall go away into everlasting life to be tortured in flames: but the righteous into life eternal to be in peaceful bliss." (Matthew 25:46 ECT Influenced Translation).

But the verse doesn't really say that, though; So Matthew 25:46 is not a solid case in proving Eternal Torment. At first glance, a person may get this impression when reading it, but we know that many verses in Scripture can be easily misunderstood with a quick reading (if we are not careful to compare Scripture with Scripture).


Sources used in this post:
(Please take note that I do not agree with everything this Christian authors believe, say, or do).
Matthew 25:46 Does Not Prove Eternal Torment – Part 1 | Rethinking Hell

In my opinion, Matt 25:46 is often used as the proof-text verse for those who subscribe to ECT. The unsaved will be tormented unmercifully in the LOF for infinity due to a finite lifetime of sins and thus separated from God forever. Yet, we are told that though tormented, those in the LOF will be in the presence of Jesus, and the angels per Rev 14:10. The Lamb is present in the LOF for what reason? Any answer to that question would be speculative but focusing on Matt 25:46 cannot lead to the conclusion that hell is forever. The argument of course is that if eternal in the second half of this verse means "forever" then by necessity it also has to mean forever in the first half. Thus aionion cannot refer to an unspecified but limited age of time but it must refer to "forever" since eternal life is forever - therefore punishment must also be forever. The weakness of this claim is that it fails to take into account context. Notice that in this passage Jesus is addressing a particular age of time; i.e, the millennium. In particular, he is addressing groups of people who compose nations, separating the goats who are commanded to depart to the fire and the sheep who will enter the kingdom. The pertinent question is, what kingdom is Jesus referring to in Matt 25:34? I submit that Jesus is referring to his millennial kingdom. Thus the YLT reads with my brackets added: "And these shall go away to punishment age-during [millennium], but the righteous to life age-during [millennium]." This interpretation upholds the view that aionion refers to an age of time - in this case 1,000 years. The sheep occupy Jesus' kingdom on earth for 1,000 years while the goats depart to the lake of fire for the equivalent 1,000 years, and after this millennial period comes the great white throne judgment.

 

[Johann]

How much scholarship does it take to say, There is no eternal punishment?

I am in disagreement with you, and the fact you debunk sound scholarship.

O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:

On this verse I can agree--pity Christians are always at each others throat.
Vain babblings (κενοφωνίας)
Only in Pastorals. olxx, oClass. From κενός empty and φωνή voice.

Oppositions of science falsely so called (ἀνιθέσεις τῆς ψευδωνύμου γνώσεως)

Better, oppositions of the falsely-named knowledge. Ἁντίθεσις, N.T.o. olxx.

Used here, in its simple sense, of the arguments and teachings of those who opposed the true Christian doctrine as intrusted to Timothy. Γνῶσις knowledge was the characteristic word of the Gnostic school, the most formidable enemy of the church of the second century. The Gnostics claimed a superior knowledge peculiar to an intellectual caste. According to them, it was by this philosophic insight, as opposed to faith, that humanity was to be regenerated.

faith was suited only to the rude masses, the animal-men. The intellectual questions which occupied these teachers were two: to explain the work of creation, and to account for the existence of evil. Their ethical problem was how to develop the higher nature in the environment of matter which was essentially evil. In morals they ran to two opposite extremes - asceticism and licentiousness.

The principal representatives of the school were Basilides, Valentinus, and Marcion. Although Gnosticism as a distinct system did not reach its full development until about the middle of the second century, foreshadowings of it appear in the heresy at which Paul's Colossian letter was aimed. It is not strange if we find in the Pastoral Epistles allusions pointing to Gnostic errors; but, as already remarked, it is impossible to refer these allusions to any one definite system of error. The word γνῶσις cannot therefore be interpreted to mean the Gnostic system; while it may properly be understood as referring to that conceit of knowledge which opposed itself to the Christian faith. Ψευδώνυμος falsely-named, N.T.o. olxx. It characterises the γνῶσις as claiming that name without warrant, and as being mere vain babbling. Comp. Col_2:8.
Vincent


Turning away from (ektrepomenos). Present middle participle of ektrepō, for which see note on 1Ti_1:6; 1Ti_5:15.

Babblings (kenophōnias). From kenophōnos, uttering emptiness. Late and rare compound, in N.T. only here and 2Ti_2:16.

Oppositions (antitheseis). Old word (anti, thesis), antithesis, only here in N.T.
Of the knowledge which is falsely so called (tēs pseudōnumou gnōseōs). “Of the falsely named knowledge.” Old word (pseudēs, onoma). Our “pseudonymous.” Only here in N.T.
Robertson

3) "Avoiding profane and vain babblings" (ektrepomenos tas bebelous kenophonias) "Turning aside from profane (and) empty utterances," or turning away from puerile and profitless intellectual quibbling and subtleties, waste of time and moral powers, Tit_1:14.

4) "And oppositions of science falsely so called" (kai antitheseis tes pseudonumou gnoseos) "And opposing or standing against falsely named knowledge," or "science so-called," pseudo-science. 2Ti_2:14; Tit_1:9; 1Pe_3:15.

SCIENCE

The science which is most necessary for us to learn is how to preserve ourselves from the contagion of bad example.

-Xenophon

HEAD AND HEART KNOWLEDGE

Head knowledge is our own, and one can polish only the outside; heart knowledge is the Spirit's work, and makes all glorious within.
--Adam

Maybe you can understand the verse in a deeper light by reading scholarly work?--Not everyone is inclined to do so--I do, not for head gnosis, but for epignosis--to put into daily practice what Scripture is teaching me dia the Ruach HaKodesh.

Yes?

 

[Johann]

In my opinion, Matt 25:46 is often used as the proof-text verse for those who subscribe to ECT. The unsaved will be tormented unmercifully in the LOF for infinity due to a finite lifetime of sins and thus separated from God forever. Yet, we are told that though tormented, those in the LOF will be in the presence of Jesus, and the angels per Rev 14:10. The Lamb is present in the LOF for what reason? Any answer to that question would be speculative but focusing on Matt 25:46 cannot lead to the conclusion that hell is forever. The argument of course is that if eternal in the second half of this verse means "forever" then by necessity it also has to mean forever in the first half. Thus aionion cannot refer to an unspecified but limited age of time but it must refer to "forever" since eternal life is forever - therefore punishment must also be forever. The weakness of this claim is that it fails to take into account context. Notice that in this passage Jesus is addressing a particular age of time; i.e, the millennium. In particular, he is addressing groups of people who compose nations, separating the goats who are commanded to depart to the fire and the sheep who will enter the kingdom. The pertinent question is, what kingdom is Jesus referring to in Matt 25:34? I submit that Jesus is referring to his millennial kingdom. Thus the YLT reads with my brackets added: "And these shall go away to punishment age-during [millennium], but the righteous to life age-during [millennium]." This interpretation upholds the view that aionion refers to an age of time - in this case 1,000 years. The sheep occupy Jesus' kingdom on earth for 1,000 years while the goats depart to the lake of fire for the equivalent 1,000 years, and after this millennial period comes the great white throne judgment.

Welcome to the Forum @gadar

 

[Johann]

A simple test of credibility with the Scriptures, is that it doesn't take reams of Scholarship, and added Greek-Hebrew lexicons, to teach what is written.

And yet you are guilty of doing it, not that there is anything wrong with studying this way.
You not interesting in the Grammar and Morphology in Scriptures?

 

[Patrick1966]

Well, we need to keep in mind that the King James Bible is the Bible that existed for hundreds of years as THE BIBLE long before the Modern Translations showed up.

The KJV itself is a translation and a very poor one at that.

 

[Patrick1966]

Many cannot tolerate the idea that the theology that they have been taught and read is based on a misunderstanding of scripture that infects the church to this day. That's ok. Jesus isn't going to make good people burn for misunderstanding the word.