Why Hell is not a place of eternal conscious torment.

[Johann]

That's not what Isaiah said. He asked and answered the question and no amount of mental gymnastics and tortured, erroneous interpretations can change that.

--and this is not a good start.

 

[Johann]

1 Thessalonians 4:14 KJV does NOT teach that at the Second Coming, God will "bring with Him" the saints who've died and gone to heaven back down to Earth to take part of some ridiculous celestial fashion show as these "disembodied souls" dress up in new, immortal flesh and bone bodies, as the Immortal Soul crowd teaches.

The verse is a HEBREW CHIASM where "death" and "resurrection" are the rhymed ideas:

A. For if we believe that Jesus died (death)
B. and rose again (resurrection)
A. even so them also which sleep in Jesus (death)
B. will God bring (forth from the tomb) with Him (resurrection).

The passage is no proof at all that the saints go to heaven at death, but confirms the theme of the last half of the chapter: the assurance of the promised resurrection of the saints in the same manner that God fulfilled His promise to raise Jesus from the dead "after three days". Did Paul tell us to comfort one another at funerals that "grandpa is dancing on the streets of gold? No - so, why do YOU do it? No, Paul says to comfort one another with words of the resurrection, which is the theme of this portion of Scripture, and is the point of verse 14.

Who are you peace piping to--yourself?

 

[Phoneman777]

Are you seeking for a dialogue? I really don't mind if someone should "correct" me and the interpretation--or are you suggesting I am deliberately twisting and perverting scriptures because I believe in eternal Hell fire and people there will be tormented for olam?

Waiting
J.

Not if the dialogue is a denial of plain texts. Isaiah PLAINLY asks and answers the question, "Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire/everlasting burnings?" with the incontrovertible truth, "He that walketh uprightly..."

No amount of twisting can wriggling frees us from the inescapable fact that it is the RIGHTEOUS, not the wicked, who will abide forever in the presence of the unspeakable glory of our "consuming fire" God that will shame our Sun and light the universe for all eternity.

 

[Phoneman777]

--and this is not a good start.

Not accepting the plain word of God isn't?

 

[Phoneman777]

Who are you peace piping to--yourself?

To Christians who, when demons come to them in the form of dearly departed loved ones with false messages, are at risk of falling prey to satanic deception, and wind up lost for all eternity - OSAS is not Biblical according to Matthew 24:12-13 KJV, 1 John 5:3 KJV, and Romans 8:7 KJV.

I don't want to see anyone lost, which is why I appeal to their sense of duty to properly interpret Scripture, so often misinterpreted to substantiate populara but deadly ideas.

 

[Patrick1966]

Chiasms are there to keep us from arriving at false conclusions, like those who've taught for too long that 1 Thessalonians 4:14 "proves" that dead saints go immediately to heaven at death.

Where do "dead saints" go upon death?

 

[Phoneman777]

Where do "dead saints" go upon death?

I'll let you answer that. Genesis 2:7 KJV is a math equation which deals with 3 variables: the Body, Breath of Life aka Spirit, and the Living Soul:

Body + Breath of Life = Living Soul
(Living Soul comes into existence only as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life.)

Likewise:

Bulb + Electric Current = Light
(Light comes into existence only as a consequence of the union of the Bulb and Electric Current.)

Therefore, if:

Bulb - Electric Current = Light ceases to exist

then:

Body - Breath of Life = _____________

 

[Patrick1966]

I'll let you answer that. Genesis 2:7 KJV is a math equation which deals with 3 variables: the Body, Breath of Life aka Spirit, and the Living Soul:

Body + Breath of Life = Living Soul
(Living Soul comes into existence only as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life.)

Likewise:

Bulb + Electric Current = Light
(Light comes into existence only as a consequence of the union of the Bulb and Electric Current.)

WHAT HAPPENS TO THE LIGHT WHEN THE ELECTRIC CURRENT IS SHUT OFF?
WHAT HAPPENS TO THE LIVING SOUL WHEN THE SPIRIT RETURNS TO GOD AND THE BODY TO EARTH?

 

[Phoneman777]

View attachment 31205

If the Living Soul comes into existence as a consequence of the union of the Body and Breath of Life, then at death when this union is broken and the Breath of Life returns to God and the Body returns to the Earth, the Living Soul ceases to exist...until the one or the other of the two resurrections.

No, the wicked are not yet burning in hell nor are the righteous dancing on streets of heavenly gold at the moment.

 

[Patrick1966]

the Living Soul ceases to exist.

If souls actually die then it seems that John 3:16 is false.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life

 

[Jack]

Satan LOVES it when his messengers convince people that there is no "everlasting fire" that Jesus clearly taught! He wants our company!

I like having spaces where you can have an actual dialogue and discuss and counter argue your points without 20 pages of stuff plopped down.

These are a few reasons why hell does not mean what so many thinks it does now days.

Matthew 25:41
New American Standard Bible
41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you accursed people, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

so the only aspect in this verse that leads you to anything eternal is the words eternal fire. The first thing to point out is that it says the fire is eternal. It does not mentioned anything about humans or angels being eternal. For a fact the Bible says only Yahweh is immortal.

 

[Patrick1966]

Satan LOVES it when his messengers convince people that there is no "everlasting fire" that Jesus clearly taught! He wants our company!

Satan is doing exactly as God intended him to do. Do you agree?

 

[Jack]

Satan is doing exactly as God intended him to do. Do you agree?

Very interesting comment! Might deserve a new thread?

 

[strepho]

There are Two sides of the gulf. Read Luke chapter 16, Richman and Lazarus. Richman ended up in hell, called sheol. It's holding place for the spirtualty dead or wicked. Lazarus went to paradise. The righteous go to paradise. Once again, sheol is holding place for the spirtualty dead or wicked. Revelation chapter 20. On judgement day, those found unworthy will go with satan into lake of fire. Many people will get eternal life and some lake of fire. I documented this.

 

[Patrick1966]

There are Two sides of the gulf. Read Luke chapter 16, Richman and Lazarus. Richman ended up in hell, called sheol. It's holding place for the spirtualty dead or wicked. Lazarus went to paradise. The righteous go to paradise. Once again, sheol is holding place for the spirtualty dead or wicked. Revelation chapter 20. On judgement day, those found unworthy will go with satan into lake of fire. Many people will get eternal life and some lake of fire. I documented this.

Yes, some may go into the Lake of Fire, but it's for a period of time and not forever because if it's forever then this verse, and others, are false.

1 Timothy 4:10 esv
For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

 

[Patrick1966]

I documented this.

Can you elaborate?

 

[Phoneman777]

If souls actually die then it seems that John 3:16 is false.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life

A Soul is not a ghost/spirit/poltergeist/spook/apparition that resembles in transparent appearance, voice, and thinking of a formerly living person who's died and flies off to wherever. That's paganism.

Biblically speaking, a Soul is a whole creature, whether a saint, sinner, or animal, that comes into existence as a consequence of the union of a Body and God's Breath of Life.

 

[robert derrick]

The fire is God.

Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

God is not fire on earth.

 

[St. SteVen]

God is not fire on earth.

Right. Probably not.
From that perspective he isn't water, wind, or earth. (soil) But...

At Pentecost He came like a rushing wind, with tongues of fire atop heads.
Out of us flow rivers of living water. He created humankind from the dust of the earth,

Maybe He is the fire and the water and the wind and the earth.

 

[robert derrick]

so the only aspect in this verse that leads you to anything eternal is the words eternal fire. The first thing to point out is that it says the fire is eternal. It does not mentioned anything about humans or angels being eternal. For a fact the Bible says only Yahweh is immortal.

So are the immortal souls created in His image. JW natural theology is false. The soul of man is not the mortal body. Jesus Christ was not dead with His body in a grave for three days.

so only our god is naturally immortal.

The true God isn't naturally anything. He was made a natural body of men, but He's not naturally created.

Natural theology of JW's is false.

In order for something else to be immortal they have to be granted eternal life. Angels, not humans naturally have eternal life. Not even our spirits. But the Bible does say he will give some eternal life?

Philosophy without the soul, is man's wisdom, not God's.

Man is not created the same as animals, with spirit only, but is a soul created by the Spirit in the immortal image of God.