Why do Catholics…

[Marymog]

Wow...shocking. You actually figured it out. Nothing I have not plainly said.
And...not shocking YOU do not believe, Gods Understanding of Gods Word, comes from God, just as Scripture teaches.

Scripture IS NOT of men’s private’s interpretation.
Seems you never learned where Gods interpretation, Gods understanding of His own words comes from!

Some dead students of the Apostles?[/QUOTE]Oh goodness, you crack me up Taken.

I figured it out a long time ago. You are hearing voices and you think it is God talking to you. Trust me, it is not Gods voice you are hearing but you are hearing a voice. If it ways Gods voice and you were chosen by him to teach the rest of us peons the truth you wouldn't be such a brash and condescending person who is so pompous that they disregard the writings of the students of the Apostles and put your own writings above them.

One day you will be dead just like the students of the Apostles. Using your logic: Once you are dead your writings on your beliefs will no longer matter or hold value? Think about the fallacy of your belief how the writings of the students of the Apostles are insignificant because those men are dead and your writings have great value because you are still alive(?)!

 

[Marymog]

Your demands define you irrespective of what label you give others.

Dang, now I need to add another title to your name: You are a troll who dodges questions!

Trolldodger is your new nick name!

Seriously QT, I would like to have a logical, articulate with facts and Scripture to back up what we believe discussion with you. Is that ever going to happen? If not, please let me know so I don't waste my time asking you serious questions of which you will dodge!

Sincerely, Mary

 

[Marymog]

I believe that most believing people quench the Holy Spirit at times and when they do... they are following the wrong head and are wrong. That would certainly include me. The Church is not the Head! Jesus is the Head!

Are all practicing Catholics always following Jesus?

What did Jesus' prayer for us accomplish?

"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." John 17:20-23

Was Jesus not a righteous man?

"... The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." James 5:16

Ok...thank you.

I don't understand how your question about all Catholics following Jesus and Jesus prayer in John being relevant to our discussion and your question about Jesus being a righteous man. They are all just insignificant questions and words that mean nothing. Nothing you wrote addresses my allegation that you and Taken have this feeling in your heart and this voice in your head that make you believe you are being guided by the Holy Spirit into the truth even though both of you disagree with each other.

Someone is confused and it's not the Holy Spirit. I am praying for both of you.

Mary

 

[Marymog]

But you have decided who and what the Church is. Do you not consider yourself to be right in that?

Yes, I consider myself to be right in that.

If not the Catholic Church then which Church?

 

[Marymog]

I believe that when I in the Spirit and following the lead of the Spirit of God that I am right.

How do you know when you are in the Spirit? What does your physical body, mind and heart feel like?

What if one of your 'in the Spirit' revelations is opposite of what one of the Apostolic Fathers wrote? Should I believe you or them?

Mary

 

[Brakelite]

@Marymog you asked me a serious question, I gave you a serious answer, and your response was...
LOL... Okay, thanks.
And you wonder why people are reluctant to go down the roads you direct them to?

 

[Marymog]

I believe that most believing people quench the Holy Spirit at times and when they do... they are following the wrong head and are wrong. That would certainly include me. The Church is not the Head! Jesus is the Head!

Yup, Jesus is the head of The Church. He chose 12 men to carry on his mission and teach the Truth! Those men then chose 12 men to carry on the mission and teach the truth. Those 12 men chose 12 to carry on the mission etc etc. When did that succession stop? Do you believe you are carrying on the mission to spread the Truth?

 

[Taken]

Christ is not a Levite but of Judah
And high priest not according to Arron but melchisedec so there Must be low priests of the same order

Lack of understanding!
Arron was a human...appointed a Priest.
Levites were humans...appointed Priests.
....ding ding ding...humans are weak and without God are failures.
Of all the Tribes, Benjamin joined with Judah and was the last to continue a faithful Order with God.

Why are you seeking “low priests”, when God sent for all men Gods own appointed High Priest?

 

[theefaith]

Lack of understanding!
Arron was a human...appointed a Priest.
Levites were humans...appointed Priests.
....ding ding ding...humans are weak and without God are failures.
Of all the Tribes, Benjamin joined with Judah and was the last to continue a faithful Order with God.

Why are you seeking “low priests”, when God sent for all men Gods own appointed High Priest?

Because without low priests there’s nothing for Christ to be high over!

the apostles and their successors are the low priests offering the sacrifice of Christ

 

[Taken]

Only STUPID people think that veneration of wood or plaster is worship.

The fact is: A GRAVEN IMAGE IS AN IDOL.

The fact is: A Temple, A Synagog, A Church, A Hall, A Room For the Express Purpose of Worshiping the Lord God....

God expressly FORBID making of IDOLS, to avoid the VERY THING YOUR Church teaches...which IS: Decorating A House, supposedly Constructed and Dedicated AS GODS HOUSE, with IDOLS that men in Gods House WOULD BOW DOWN TO.

And .... oh oh, bowing Dow to Statues, IN Gods House is not worshiping, is but a fools blather, and the most egregious slap in Gods face, in a House “supposedly” dedicated TO God...
Doesn’t matter if it is a statue of any human, or “supposedly” Christ Jesus Himself, teaching children by example, and teaching adults it’s required to join your Catholic Church...”you do not know IF a person IS Worshiping that statue or “playing the man-made game of see I am bowing, but no I am not worshiping”....

You can only speak for you, same as any other person adjoined in the Catholic Church....And there ARE plenty adjoined in the Catholic Church who Have spoken for themselves, and DO bow down to and worship statues, placs’ , trinkets.

* Why an image out of Gods created materials that can wither, be melted, crushed, smashed, shredded....is chosen by men to Represent a God without a Beginning....is BEYOND reason
* And regarding statues of humans, people bowing down to, in Gods House...despicable.

Here's a clue: we venerate who the statue represents, not the statue itself. Your stupid insults are automatic with you.

Not Making AND Bowing down to graven images, was not “my Stupid idea” as you curiously accredited to me....That credit goes to God Himself....but good to know how you feel about Gods Teaching.

You objection to bowing (as an act of veneration) is not biblical. You've invented a new man made tradition.

Laughable. Check your history. Christ Jesus established His Church. The Jewish Apostles were first to Preach in Buildings men established as Christ’s Churches...
AND...After Jesus returned to Heaven....After the Apostles died...
When Gentiles renamed Christ’s Church....then did graven images of God and humans begin to fill Catholic Churches...and Catholic men teaching by example and instruction to bow down to the Idols.

Deut. 5:9 – God’s command, “you shall not bow down to them” means “do not worship them.” But not all bowing is worship. Here God’s command is connected to false worship.

Not bow to THEM is clearly graven images.
Deut. 5:
[8] Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:
[9] Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,

Rev. 3:9 – Jesus said people would bow down to the Philistines....

(are people graven images?)

Gen.19:1 – Lot bowed down to the ground in veneration before two angels in Sodom.

.....

(are angels graven images?)

Gen. 24:52 – Abraham’s servant bowed himself to the earth before the Lord....

(Fascinating, bowing down before the Lord)

Gen. 42:6 – Joseph’s brothers bow before Joseph with the face to the ground....

(were Joseph’s brothers graven images?)

ON and ON and ON....examples that have nothing to do with graven images, as your proof, it is okay for “catholic” men to bow down to graven images...

Jos. 5:14 – Joshua fell to the ground prostrate in veneration before an angel.....(is an angel a graven image?)

1 Sam. 28:14 – Saul bows down before Samuel with his face to the ground in honor and veneration.....(was Samuel a graven image?)

1 Kings 1:23 – the prophet Nathan bows down before King David....(was King David a graven image?)

2 Kings 2:15 – the sons of the prophets bow down to Elisha at Jericho...
(Was Elisha a graven image?)

1 Chron. 21:21 – Ornan the Jebusite did obeisance to king David with his face to the ground...(was Ornan a graven image?)

1 Chron. 29:20 – Israelites bowed down to worship God and give honor to the king. (Fascinating the Israelites bowed down to worship God!)

2 Chron. 29:29-30 – King Hezekiah and the assembly venerate the altar by bowing down in worship before the sin offerings....

(No they did not. After the burnt offering was finished they bow themselves and worshiped. Nothing says they bowed To the sin offering or bowed To the altar.)

Tobit 12:16 – Tobiah and Tobit fell down to the ground in veneration before the angel Raphael. (Was Raphael a graven image?)

Judith 14:7 – Achior the Ammonite kneels before Judith venerating her and praising God. (Was Judith a graven image?)

Psalm 138:2 – David bows down before God’s Holy Temple.
(Was the Holy Temple a graven image?)

Dan. 2:46 – the king fell down on his face paying homage to Daniel and commands that an offering be made to him. (Wad Daniel a graven image?)

Dan. 8:17 – Daniel fell down prostrate in veneration before the angel Gabriel. (Was Gabriel a graven image?)

“Catholics worship statues!” People still make this ridiculous claim.

God said to NOT make graven Images.
God said to NOT bow down to Them.
Catholics teach and do make and do regularly bow down to graven Images.

Facts are Facts.

 

[Taken]

Hey Taken,

Well, The Church doesn't have any doctrine that says one must bow down to or build a statue! Soooooo what's your point? Do you want to talk about doctrines that The Church does have and discuss those? Or do you wish to continue going on tangents that are off topic?

Yup, I trust and believe what the students of the Apostles teach over what YOU teach? That is a no brainer!! Who do you "trust to believe"? (i know, i know, you trust you)

Also, some of your fellow Protestant brothers and sisters "make statues of a woman they never saw"! When you articulate your complete and utter disdain for people building statues to honor the Mother of God then please include your Protestant brethren in your criticism. I am not sure why any Christian would criticize another Christian for honoring the Mother of God....but hey, to each his own.

Curious Mary

You should KNOW I do not agree with you....so why you continue to speak your FALSE WORDS, maliciously pretending you are speaking my belief....is a very negative reflection on your character.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

nice try at least you are thinking about it but no that is the royal priesthood and Christ is high priest according to the order of melchisedec so there must be low priests of the same ministerial order, offering the same sacrifice as Christ!

So we have a biblical priesthood, but to you it is not the right priesthood.

Melchisadec was a king! So if Jesus is a King after the the order of Melchisadec- so won't all other priests be a royal priesthood like King Melchisadec and King Jesus!
C'mon man! Stop these3 silly little linguistic twistings.

 

[farouk]

Paul was not there in eh beginning.
Paul went to the council to debate:

Galatians 2:5-10
King James Version

5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.

6 But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person:) for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:

7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)

9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

10 Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.

Acts 13
King James Version

13 Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.

2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.

3 And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.

Paul was commissioned out of Antioch and not Jerusalem.

Paul was not part of the Jerusalem Council.

He had been rejected by the Jewish wing of the church,and was not accepted for several years-from that council. there is no record he ever was accepted into teh council. He spent most of his life with the gentiles.

@Ronald Nolette I would see the so called Council of Jerusalem in Acts as referring to something that was done at a particularly time and place in order to handle a specific matter that arose between two local churches; and not as some structure being initiated which was then to be imposed widely and permanently.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Where do I go if you refuse to answer a doctrinal question from me Ronald? And how often should I ask that same question? Today, and then again a year from now to see if you have changed your answer. And then 2 years from that to see if you have changed your answer again???

Well do you keep checking with Romanism? They have changed their doctrines many many many times! But if you are my disciple, then you would be fellowshhipping with me, and you would know!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

So the men who started those churches they didn't properly study Scripture to come up with those doctrines that YOU call false but YOU conducted a proper study of Scripture to determine that their doctrines are false???????? Even though you are a man that came AFTER the Apostles YOU can figure out what a false doctrine is but Clement, Ignatius, Polycarp or any man that starts a Protestant church CAN'T figure out what a false doctrine is by reading the SAME BIBLE THAT YOU READ??????????

Still waiting for you to tell me what you are nudging me to.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

@Ronald Nolette I would see the so called Council of Jerusalem in Acts as referring to something that was done at a particularly time and place in order to handle a specific matter that arose between two local churches; and not as some structure being initiated which was then to be imposed widely and permanently.

Well there was no coordination between the Jewish and Gentile wings. The jewish church was fairly small ( it would number the size of one American mega church today) and most believers were all nearby, so it was more like a body of elders overseeing a local assembly than a universal ruling body.

Paul established the gentile church and appointed elders who followed the appointments down the line with out consulting Jerusalem.

 

[farouk]

Well there was no coordination between the Jewish and Gentile wings. The jewish church was fairly small ( it would number the size of one American mega church today) and most believers were all nearby, so it was more like a body of elders overseeing a local assembly than a universal ruling body.

Paul established the gentile church and appointed elders who followed the appointments down the line with out consulting Jerusalem.

The need for a centralized system of control was not necessary; rather, it was the doctrine of 'the faith once delivered to the saints' (Jude) that needed to be taught.

 

[Taken]

Oh goodness, you crack me up Taken.

Don’t give me credit for your cracked thoughts.

I figured it out a long time ago. You are hearing voices

I’ve never said that I hear voices.
That is you trying to speak for me.

you think it is God talking to you.

You obviously are not aware how Gods Spirit communicates.

Trust me, it is not Gods voice you are hearing but you are hearing a voice.

Trust you? No.
Me hearing Gods Voice? That’s your words, not mine.
I am hearing A Voice? That’s your words, not mine.

If it ways Gods voice

If you believed Scripture...

and you were chosen by him to teach

We are all chosen by Him, to do something....
Think God called you to make up false ideas and maliciously pass them off as an others beliefs?

us peons...

you wouldn't be such a brash and condescending person who is so pompous that they disregard the writings of the students of the Apostles and put your own writings above them.

A cracked up peon with inferior feelings...your own self-description...
And accredited to me........LOL

 

[Marymog]

Still waiting for you to tell me what you are nudging me to.

Hey Ronald,

I know even after answering your "nudge" question you more than likely won't answer my questions....but I can only hope.

You are referring to Post #246 which had my "nudge" reference. So, lets review the context of post #246:

If you (Ronald) were standing in front of one of the Apostles and they told you "Ronald, XYZ is a sound doctrine. Do NOT deviate from it and do not teach anything opposite of it" and you then went out and deviated/taught opposite of what they told you, do you think they would allow you to continue to teach? Are you still ONE with their teaching? Or do you think they would treat you as a pagan or tax collector? With that said you have said that you have changed your belief on issues over 47 years as after you have learned more of the Scriptures and heard disagreeing arguments that appeared to apply the Scriptures better. I sincerely hope that I have nudged you in the right direction and this may be one of those times.

That was my response in regards to your statement: But you are confusing oneness with unity or conformity of thought! My wife and I are one, though we do not always agree.

So I am attempting to nudge you to see how illogical your belief is that The Church should not have oneness with unity or conformity of thought! For The Church to be ONE it must have CONFORMITY of thought on KEY salvific doctrines otherwise we end up with what we got in the 16th century; a Protestant Revolution that forever divided, instead of uniting, Christianity. NOT being ONE (of which Jesus prayed for) and NOT having conformity of thought (of which Scripture teaches) leads to false teachers twisting Scripture to their own destruction and to the destruction of those whose ears are tickled by their teaching of false doctrines. If Christianity is not ONE with CONFORMITY of thought we will never fulfill John 8:32 because everyone will teach their own "truth".

Keeping it real, Mary

 

[Taken]

Christ founded the church to teach all men matt 16;18 Matt 28:19

According to Gods WORD!