Why Christians Disagree

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Vince

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And if nothing existed there cannot be a natural scientific cause. It has to be supernatural, which science rejects except for scientists who are Christians.
Scientists do not reject the possibility of the supernatural. The problem is if something is truly supernatural how could we possibly know. Something that is truly supernatural and something that is natural but not understood look exactly the same. How do you tell them apart. Some Christians want to say that if science cannot explain something then it has to be supernatural and they reject the idea that it could be discovered as a natural phenomena in the future. This has happened a lot over the history of humans.

There was a Gilligan's Island episode where headhunters came to the island. They used a radio to make them think that Gilligan was a god and that scared them away. The headhunters did not understand how a voice could come from a box and assumed it was supernatural. This is what some Christians do when science has no explanation as to how the universe started.
 
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Vince

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The bible, law of cause and effect and the law that everything has a beginning and an end.
I agree.

Science deals with the natural. When the natural is eliminated that leaves the supernatural.
But you cannot eliminate the natural explanations just because we don't know what that natural explanation is or would be. It could have been supernatural or a natural explanation we don't know about yet. The two look exactly the same.
 
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Vince

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So how I answer your original questions: All who are saved are saved by the sacrifice of Jesus, without that none would be saved.
I understand. But there are Christians out there that don't think you are saved by his sacrifice. They actually are repulsed by that theology and claim that the bible teaches this. Why wouldn't god who wants everyone to be saved clear this up somehow. Use the holy spirit or something to lead everyone to a common truth.
 

Vince

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@Vince,

I gave you some material to consider in a couple of posts, haven't heard a word of response, but I see you're still quarrelling with others. You should at least have some common courtesy when persons take time to answer your request for help, info, what have you.

I hope you'll take the time to listen to what was given, to also take the time and listen to Dr. James White and subscribe to his podcasts. If you're truly wanting to hear, then take the time to listen.
Discussion is not quarreling.

I will go back and look at your posts. I have had many people respond to my posts so sometimes I forget or son't see a response to me. Especially when I am using my phone.
 
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Vince

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You're going to see these types of differences until you look at the Reformed side of the aisle. Reformed theology holds to a consistent hermeneutic. I'd suggest you listen to Dr. James White from www.aomin.org. Many of his debates may interest you, help you &c. His teaching will help you put things together. White has a podcast as well.

Who knows, you may in the end be one whom God is speaking of in 2 Peter 3:9.
I am familiar with James White. I have read his books and watched his debates. When I was a Christian I most identified with reformed theology. My point was not who is right but why can't Christians agree on what is right on salvation. That is a life or death issue and it seems to me that god could at least clear this important issue up somehow.
 

Vince

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Time to ask @Vince to prove God doesnt exist. ...so what is your proof there is no God?
I don't claim god doesn't exist. My position is that there is insufficient evidence to believe he exists. If you have some I will evaluate it and see if it is sufficient for belief. Theists are making a claim that requires evidence. Atheists are making no claim on whether god exists or not. We are saying we don't know so provide evidence.
 
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Vince

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No, they don't believe in anything spiritual or divine, just what's physically obvious.. If they can't see, touch, or hear it, they don't believe it. But I agree, when someone rejects belief, they are constantly looking for answers..
For me this is not accurate. I believe in things that I cannot touch or hear etc. such as atoms, electricity, particles, love, etc. But I believe those things are real based on evidence. I can have a high confidence that electricity exists because I can measure it and see it working in a consistent way.

As far as god goes a lot of atheists such as myself are not saying we don't believe something we are saying I want sufficient evidence to believe it is true. There is a possibility that god exists or that gravity is caused by a particle but I don't have sufficient evidence to believe either way.
 
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Vince

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If this is what you believe..then go with that then.

Why even bother to try and disprove God that you don't believe in! Why even worry about some people believing that the bible is truth.
If none of it is true...why concern yourself with it?
How many times do I have to say this, that I am not trying to disprove god. It is a possibility that he exists. If he does I want to know. I just want evidence that nobody here seems to have.

Unless you were a horrid child and at age 6 went around making sure that none of the kids at school got excited about Christmas..and told them there was no Santa.
So, is your crusade to make sure that one one in the world believes in Christmas any more...
No God = No Christmas.
You must be a right old Grinch. :(
People around the world celebrate Christmas without religion. I do.
 
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Preacher4Truth

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I am familiar with James White. I have read his books and watched his debates. When I was a Christian I most identified with reformed theology. My point was not who is right but why can't Christians agree on what is right on salvation. That is a life or death issue and it seems to me that god could at least clear this important issue up somehow.
What makes you think that all under the label of "Christendom" should agree on the manner of salvation??? Seriously???

Even a cursory reading of the NT would show that such an expectation is rather foolish. You should be, if you were ever Reformed, aware of this glaring fact. It's all over the epistles and gospels. Right?

Then there is your statement that you've listened to White and have read his books, but still wonder why there is this within Christendom?

Hmmmm. Interesting.

Meh, not sure I buy your story sir, actually I don't, something is sorely amiss. There are too many holes here to say that you couldn't conclude this already from Scripture yourself let alone from White's teachings.

God has cleared it up, salvation is through Christ alone, faith alone, grace alone. What you want is for God to magically reveal himself to every single person, or more specifically to you, like prove he's there. If you were ever Reformed you know that Scripture doesn't support this, as he is Sovereign. Note Matthew 11:25-30 for instance.

Well, methinks you're playing a bit coy here. Either that or you knew very little theologically speaking to think that all under Christendom should or would be united on the Gospel and salvation.

If this is the reason for your apostasy then it's a really shallow uneducated flight you've taken, and you know Scripture states you were never of us; 1 John 2:19. You should also be fully aware of Romans 1 existence of God argument, and the societal judgment that follows. Biblically speaking, you're without excuse.

It appears you're demanding God to give you a sign, and you know that isn't going to happen. We have the Law and Moses, Luke 16:29, or what we call Scripture, and that's enough for God to save His people.

By the way, did you listen to the Sproul video? Aseity of God? You cannot refute the reasoning there, all you can do is argue against it in unbelief. So why are you still on the fence? Is it not because you are not and never were truly converted? Could that be the issue here?
 

bbyrd009

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I understand. But there are Christians out there that don't think you are saved by his sacrifice. They actually are repulsed by that theology and claim that the bible teaches this. Why wouldn't god who wants everyone to be saved clear this up somehow. Use the holy spirit or something to lead everyone to a common truth.
no Son of Man may die for another's sins; the soul that sins will die

and I suggest that God will not clear this up bc we are required to choose, and God will not arbitrate our choices. Seek, and you will find, iow.
If you seek immortality in the Elysian Fields with Zeus, then don't bother finding out what "eternal" really means, and etc.
put another way wisdom is intentionally hidden from "the wise," who are not well identified, except wise in their own eyes maybe
 
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bbyrd009

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Use the holy spirit or something to lead everyone to a common truth.
*what is currently true will shortly be false

and even though Christians don't like to acknowledge this, you might see that what are often deemed "mistakes" or "contradictions" in Scripture are blatant, and intentional wadr

provide for your family
don't work for food

etc. these are riddles meant to be contemplated, not facts at war with each other imo
 
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bbyrd009

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why can't Christians agree on what is right on salvation. That is a life or death issue and it seems to me that god could at least clear this important issue up somehow.
there is only One Immortal
No one has ever gone up to heaven
you and your sons will be here with me
the kingdom is within you

so what do you mean by "salvation?"
 

bbyrd009

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For me this is not accurate. I believe in things that I cannot touch or hear etc. such as atoms, electricity, particles, love, etc. But I believe those things are real based on evidence. I can have a high confidence that electricity exists because I can measure it and see it working in a consistent way.

As far as god goes a lot of atheists such as myself are not saying we don't believe something we are saying I want sufficient evidence to believe it is true. There is a possibility that god exists or that gravity is caused by a particle but I don't have sufficient evidence to believe either way.
Patterns in the Bible for you then I guess :D

and if it helps any God detests religion as much as we do, at least, and even took down our best example OT right
 
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CoreIssue

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Scientists do not reject the possibility of the supernatural. The problem is if something is truly supernatural how could we possibly know. Something that is truly supernatural and something that is natural but not understood look exactly the same. How do you tell them apart. Some Christians want to say that if science cannot explain something then it has to be supernatural and they reject the idea that it could be discovered as a natural phenomena in the future. This has happened a lot over the history of humans.

There was a Gilligan's Island episode where headhunters came to the island. They used a radio to make them think that Gilligan was a god and that scared them away. The headhunters did not understand how a voice could come from a box and assumed it was supernatural. This is what some Christians do when science has no explanation as to how the universe started.

What I did was to pick unique events out of the bible, such as the walls of Jericho, and study them.

Scientists said there's no way those walls fell into natural events.

Also of archaeology has discovered many things built in very ancient times we still cannot build today.
http://christiantalkzone.net/forum/index.php?members/xnbvn555.2793/
Challenges to Atheistic History
 
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Heart2Soul

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I don't claim god doesn't exist. My position is that there is insufficient evidence to believe he exists. If you have some I will evaluate it and see if it is sufficient for belief. Theists are making a claim that requires evidence. Atheists are making no claim on whether god exists or not. We are saying we don't know so provide evidence.
For me, as one who believes in God since I was old enough to understand, I cannot comprehend the mind of a non believer. So it is difficult for me to compile any reasonable conversation with that person. I can only ask questions that seem to be biased towards my belief, it seems anyway. But I do pray and ask God for wisdom in such cases and mostly the answer I get is to quote scripture. So in your case all I can say is if you seek Him you WILL find Him.......and this one....some plant, some water , but it is God who gives the increase.....so I know seeds have been planted in you and somehow I believe those seeds will grow and produce the fruit of it as God increases those seeds.
 

Taken

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You say scripture is clear...so how did you miss the most important, incisive, and instructional text in relation to this subject right there at creation...
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.


I didn't "miss" it.
There is a difference between stating one point, "AND" understanding that point, before moving on to the Next point.

Gen 2:7 "First Point"
And the LORD God "FORMED" man of the dust of the ground

The FORM is a Complete BODY, called MAN.

POINT TWO....the addition, CLEARLY revealed.

AND <---

Gen 2:7 ...and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life


The BODY/Man has received from thee LORD God, Gods Breath, and that BREATH IS LIFE.


POINT THREE....the addition, CLEARLY revealed


AND <---

Gen 2: 7 man "BECAME" a living soul.

A formed body/ man of dust, WAS CREATED Complete, It was neither ALIVE, LIVING, nor DEAD.

Continued..
 

Taken

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Continued..2

The FORMED BODY/man was complete...
Outside flesh/skin, eyes, ears, mouth, nose, head, arms, legs, hands, feet....

But could not see, hear, speak, smell, taste, stand, walk, move...

Inside was complete...
Bones, Brain, Mind, Heart, veins, BLOOD, liver, stomach, lungs, tissue, tendons, nerves, etc.

But it could not think, feel, (pain, hunger, joy, distress) blood did not flow, heart did not beat, could not move, could not see, hear, smell, taste, talk, etc.

The Body was Neither ALIVE or DEAD.
However IT WAS called something:

Called, "FORM" called "A MAN", AND" "THEN" "additionally" was called a "LIVING SOUL" and "THEN called "ADAM".

WHAT BECAME ALIVE?

Flesh, skin, heart, BLOOD, bones, nerves, Mind, Brain, etc.

^^ THOSE things the MAN was FORMED WITH, but that were NEITHER Alive or Dead.

And:
"smell", "hearing", "sight", "taste", "speech"?


^^ NOTHING informs us the MAN was FORMED FROM DUST....."with" those things.

WHAT you SHOULD have learned....
IS "God" IS LIFE.
IS "Man" IS a Formed BODY of dust.
IS "Man" Becomes LIVING BY Gods Breath, being Blown INTO the man.
IS "Mans" BODILY LIFE is BLOOD.
IS 'THE SOUL", is FROM God.
IS "without" the SOUL...and Gods LIFE "IN" the SOUL...;
"Smell, hearing, sight, taste, speech", of the FORMED BODY, IS NOT POSSIBLE.

IS a Formed BODY, that has RECEIVED;
That SOUL "from God".
That SOUL, belongs to God.
That SOUL, is MADE by God.
That SOUL, is Living, by Gods Breath.
That SOUL, Remains Living, Until, God Takes
....HIS BREATH out of that Soul.
That SOUL, Does NOT REQUIRE a BODY to
....Remain Living.
That SOUL, continues, "smelling, hearing,
....seeing, tasting, speech", whether IN or
....OUT of a BODY.

A BODY, does NOT become ALIVE, until it has RECEIVED a LIVING SOUL.

Nothing can BECOME DEAD, until it has FIRST been MADE alive.

A BODY"S LIFE IS it's BLOOD.

When the BODY's LIFE (BLOOD) "IS DYING"
The "LIVING SOUL" DEPARTS OUT OF A DYING BODY.
The "LIVING SOUL" continues "LIVING"...
(Smelling, hearing, seeing, tasting, speech)

Every thing that IS WITHIN a MAN/ Formed Body, IS CALLED "BY" that mans "IDENTITY".

Body's/Forms MEN are called by "names" & "titles".

"IF" and WHEN the Lord God, "SAVES" your SOUL; "your" SOUL, is "SAVED" from "destruction", is "SAVED" from ever being SEPARATED from God. (And separation from God, is DEATH, in the spiritual & physical).

Souls are not Physical.
Body's are Physical.

Bodies come from DUST.
Souls come from God.
Life IN VESSELS comes from God.

You can certainly Call your Body...:
My, mine, I , me, etc. possessive, identity.

You can certainly Call the soul in your body;
My, mine I, me, etc. possessive, identity.

You can certainly Call the spirit in your body;
My, mine, I , me, etc. possessive, identity.

The Bodily FORM, dies WHEN it's BLOOD no longer Flows and beats its HEART, and is buried in a tomb, grave, ground, cemetery.

The LIVING SOUL in YOUR body, belongs to God....Departs the BODY and GOES to where Gods Sends it.
(OT mens Saved souls, CARRIED by Angels, to a Comfort side of Hell)
(OT mens unsaved souls, Sent to the Torment side of Hell)
(2,000 + years ago, Jesus' BODY died, His Living soul went to Hell. His Living soul Left Hell, and
(NT & forward) thereafter, Saved Living souls, departing out of Dead Bodies, are Carried by Angels to Heaven)
(OT QUICKENED spirits of men, departed Dying bodies and went to Gods Hands)
(OT, NT & Forward QUICKENED spirits of men, departed dying bodies, go to Gods Hands)

Continued ...

 

Taken

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continued ... 3

You can KILL A Body.
You can NOT KILL the soul IN or OUT of a BODY.
You can NOT KILL the QUICKENED spirit.

Man IS a BODY.
Man HAS a SOUL.
Man HAS a SPIRIT.

Bodies SHALL DIE.
Gods SAVES SOULS, or they are destroyed.
Gods QUICKENS SPIRITS, only of the saved.

(All three things are possessive and CALLED by the mans IDENTITY....NAME)

God IS SPIRIT.
God HAS SPIRIT.
God HAS a SOUL.
God HAS a BODY.

Isa 57
[16] For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.

Ezek 18
[4] Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Man became a living soul...did not receive a soul,


Man was CREATED...a FORMED BODY of Dust.
Man was MADE...Living...
Blood Life of the Body, via Gods HAND
Senses Life, via Gods given SOUL & LIFE
Spirit Life, via Gods given SEED


When that "BODY's " LIFE is DYING.

Gen 9
[4] ...flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood...

The LIVING SOUL "departs".

[18] And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died)

Dust returns to Dust.
Living Souls (Saved) are carried by Angels...to ....Comfort...


(Whereever is the TREE of LIFE, is Paradise, and SAVED LIVING SOULS.)

First...the Garden of Eden
....Tree of Life
Then..Comfort side of Hell
....Paradise
Then..Heaven
....Paradise
Then..Gods Kingdom On Earth
....Tree of Life / Paradise

but the entire combination of body (which till that time was still mud and the infusion of the breath of life which gives life to the blood

Well aware of WHAT "was",
"AND" WHAT was Received.

Well aware WHAT "was" From DUST, and Returns to DUST.

Well aware WHAT "is" Gods, comes FROM God, Goes to a Life souce, (Tree of Life) Returns to GOD...or is Destroyed.

Continued