Why Christians Disagree

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Taken

Well-Known Member
Feb 6, 2018
27,379
14,824
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Continued 4

man becomes a living soul. When the breath of "life returns to God" Who gave it, life ceases. the body dies, and reverts back to its original composition...mud.

Dust returns to Dust.

WHEN does the Life IN the SOUL Return to God?

You say, WHEN the BODY dies.

Seems YOU DID NOT LEARN the TRUTH that Scripture "and" JESUS REVEALED...

Living souls have been DEPARTING Dead and Dying Bodies, since the beginning.
Bodies that had a Living soul IN THEM, and the WHAT the Living Souls departs, is a DEAD BODY!

The Body was DEAD...and BURIED.
The LIVING SOUL...went to Hell.
IN Hell...was a great FIXED GULF.
On One side of the GULF...was Paradise
...the Saved Souls
...the Souls in Comfort
...the Souls of the Faithful
...the souls with Gods Life, AND with God.
...Paradise
On the Other side was...Misery & Torment.
...the Unsaved souls.
...the souls without comfort
...the souls of the unfaithful
...the souls with Gods life, but without God
...Hell

Luke 16
26] And beside all this, between us and you there is agreat gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Gen 25

[7] And these are the days of the years of Abraham's life which he lived, an hundred threescore and fifteen years.
[8] Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people.
[9] And his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, which is before Mamre;

Abraham...BODY Dead. BODY BURIED
Abraham ..gave up the ghost (spirit),
...............returned to God.
Abraham...WHERE WAS HIS DEPARTED ................SOUL?


You should have Learned...WHEN the BODY of a man DIES...the QUICKENED spirit of man is what IMMEDIATELY returns to God (who gave it.)

NOT ALL receive A QUICKENED SPIRIT.

Luke 23
[
46] And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Acts 7


59] And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Abraham's LIVING SOUL...

Luke 16
[19] There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
[20] And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
[21] And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
[22] And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
[23] And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
[24] And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
[25] But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
[26] And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

If you had read AND understood...
Dead bodies are buried by men, in the ground.

Living souls depart dead bodies.
(The breath of life does not depart the soul.)

Living (unsaved) souls go to hell, wait in torment, separated from God.

Living (saved) souls went to the comfort side of hell...WAITING until Jesus' soul went to hell.......AND LEFT Hell....
thereafter..
Departed (SAVED) Living souls, go to Heaven.
(Not only the life in the soul...the saved living soul goes to Heaven)

Departed QUICKENED SPIRITS, go to Gods Hands, as the body is DYING.

And did YOU LEARN...While their Bodies were Buried....their Living souls IN HELL, were seeing, talking, feeling, smelling, etc. ?


But now right here is where you jump to an enormous supposition which scripture no where hints at.

Plenty of Scriptures NOTIFY me:
The Body,
The Soul,
The Spirit,

Are THREE DIFFERENT THINGS, that ALL have to do with the,
ONE "CREATED and MADE" THING A MAN....and called by A NAME.

"CREATED and MADE"...two different things.


Gen 2
[3] And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

God Created MAN (BODY) "and" then "MADE" that Body Living.

1 Thes 5:
[23] ... you wholly; ...
spirit and soul and body


How can a living soul go to heaven...go anywhere and enjoy anything, when that part of the human existence that feels, communicates, and senses, is now dust?
Souls did not come from dust. Nor do saved souls return to dust.

Body's come from dust and return to dust.

Living SOULS are sent.
Saved Living SOULS are carried by Angels.

Because you create in your own mind

Nope.
I LISTEN to what the Word of God says.
I LISTEN when MYSTERIES of God are REVEALED.

God CREATES....and then MAKES from what He CREATES, "changes" IN the things "HE" has CREATED and MADE. (According to HIS WILL).

the above assumption,

What you declare FOR ME, has NO AFFECT on me.

you must therefore make room for this one.

I "MUST" adopt, believe, "YOUR ASSUMPTIONS" ? Uh...No!

If saved souls are immortal,

Learn what MORTAL means...
Hint, hint.....REQUIRED TO DIE.

Where did I once say, SOULS are REQUIRED TO DIE? I didn't.

BODYS, are MORTAL, they are "REQUIRED" to DIE.

Gen 9
[5] And surely your blood of your lives will I require; ...
I require the life of man.

Continued
 

Taken

Well-Known Member
Feb 6, 2018
27,379
14,824
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Continued 5


then unsaved souls must be also. (Immortal)

Unsaved souls are not mortal or immortal.
They are vessels with Gods Life in them.
Gods Life shall be departed OUT of those UNSAVED souls (vessels). The Life of the Unsaved soul shall return to God (who IS Life), and the SOUL? It shall be DESTROYED.

So you need to find an address for them. (Unsaved souls)

Why? God already Prepared a PLACE for Unsaved living souls....Guess you didn't pay attention....Torment side of Hell...(seeing, smelling, talking, hearing, feeling...) ...NOTHING Pleasant....ie the Torment!

THEY are WAITING in their PREPARED PLACE, for Judgement Day.

Somewhere to live.

Already God prepared, and many "living souls" already there....ie hell....Separated from God.

in reference to 'souls' ...dead 'souls' in hell separated from God yet still existing, and while you say they are dead, they obviously ostensibly still feel pain and a sense of "waiting'. So, my question...obviously God 'exists' , but can He exist and be dead at the same time seeing He is Spirit?

Dead Bodies are buried in graves.

Unsaved LIVING souls departed out of dead bodies, ALIVe, and are in Hells torments.

Any separation from God, is CALLED Dead.

Natural spirits of man, DO NOT BeCOMe ...
QUICKENED, BORN AGAIN, because they do NOT RECEIVE the SEED of God!

Men are bodies, subject to death, thus MORTAL, and required to DIE.

"PUTTING" On "immortality", is when the BODY is raised UP in glorification.
THEN:
The Saved LIVING soul, returns to the Body.
The QUICKENED spirit, returns to the Body.

The MAN is THEN...manifested WHOLLY, HOLY, WHOLE....Body, Soul, Spirit.

UNTIL the manifestation....a Converted man,
IS ACCOUNTED, "whole" "perfected"...
Sanctified Body, restored saved soul, quickened spirit...

Such man ^^ is simple WAITING for the Lord to "REVEAL" the mans "manifestation" (glorification) in the Lords Presence.

Body, Soul, Spirit.....THREE "different" things,
That pertain to ONE man.

Until you listen and learn what is revealed, you will not understand the difference between a BODY, a SOUL, a SPIRIT....

They become a part of the MAN at different times, and at different times, they may or may not become changed.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Taken

Well-Known Member
Feb 6, 2018
27,379
14,824
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The vessel, in that context as clearly indicated in the text,

is not being depicted as a container for an immortal soul or spirit

Why add your words and distort what I said?

The is a VESSEL...
And IF you read, learned and studied...
You would find the SOUL is a VESSEL.
The HEART is a VESSEL...

Vessels Are CREATED and MADE, GOOD, by God....

Men CORRUPT, the GOOD vessels God has MADE...

However a curious man Might, LEARN the Lords WAY of HOW the corrupt VESSELS may again be MADE GOOD, BY THE POWER of GOD.

Body - Vessel - Corrupt Flesh & Bloof
Heart - Vessel - Corrupt Spirit & Truth
Soul - Vessel - Corrupt Senses


Body - Crucified, washed, sanctified, justified to be REDEEMED and Glorified....Good again.

Heart - Circumcised, Old spirit/ Truth cut off,
New Heart, Seed of God planted, New Truth, Gods Truth grows....Good again.

Soul - Restored...Good again.

Good again - Marked with Gods SEAL, forever.


there is not intimation whatsoever of that being the case, not even hinted at. The context is speaking of the person's character. We possess a certain character...whether gold, silver, wood, stone. We do not have golden souls or wooden souls.

LEARN how to LEARN the Word of God.

It is the SAME WAY we teach little babes...
Introduce what they CAN SEE, and OBSERVE.

Oh lookie babe, this is a VESSEL...a pot, a cup, a pan, a bottle.....
Now lookie babe, what we can put in the VESSEL....water, milk, juice, wine

Now here's your bottle vessel babe, it is filled with milk...come back later when your reasoning has matured and find out what other things are vessels and what they can hold.

Oh hi babe Susie...skipping pasted all the boring details that gives you more knowledge.... and all the things from your babe bottle drinking time to you becoming a WIFE...

1 Pet 3
[7] Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.

Hey wait a minute, says the babe, what is a WIFE, and what is weaker, and what is the VESSEL ?

The wife, is what a women married to a man is called.

The weaker, is what is that which has less strength.

The vessel, according to Scripture is that which holds something within the vessel.

According to Scripture, MEN MAKE, vessels, called pots, vases, bottles, to hold things.

According to Scripture, God has made "vessels", to hold life from Him

According to Breaklite, the vessel, is that which is the mental and moral qualities.

I'll stick with Scriptural teaching.
 
Last edited:

Vince

Active Member
Feb 20, 2019
814
101
43
55
Ft Worth
Faith
Atheist
Country
United States
What makes you think that all under the label of "Christendom" should agree on the manner of salvation??? Seriously???
I am not saying that they should, or surprised that they don't. Why do you think that god lets the confusion continue when he could straighten it out in some way? It is a matter of eternal life or death right? It would at least be nice if god would let us know how to be saved so we could make that choice if we wanted to. But the bible is unclear as evidenced by the different claims on how to be saved all claiming the bible as their source.

Even a cursory reading of the NT would show that such an expectation is rather foolish. You should be, if you were ever Reformed, aware of this glaring fact. It's all over the epistles and gospels. Right?
I don't disagree but why did god not make it clear? He is watching people sincerely choose wrong, thinking they are getting eternal life but they are getting eternal hell instead.

Then there is your statement that you've listened to White and have read his books, but still wonder why there is this within Christendom?

Hmmmm. Interesting.

Meh, not sure I buy your story sir, actually I don't, something is sorely amiss. There are too many holes here to say that you couldn't conclude this already from Scripture yourself let alone from White's teachings.
Of course. I don't know enough so you can just blow me off and not deal with the problems of your bible.

God has cleared it up, salvation is through Christ alone, faith alone, grace alone. What you want is for God to magically reveal himself to every single person, or more specifically to you, like prove he's there. If you were ever Reformed you know that Scripture doesn't support this, as he is Sovereign. Note Matthew 11:25-30 for instance.
Says you. I am not asking for god to reveal himself. My question is why isn't the bible clear on salvation? Why is it not important to god that he relays this information clearly? Some say salvation requires works, others repentance, others no repentance, others no works, others everyone is saved. All claim their interpretation is from the bible.

Well, methinks you're playing a bit coy here. Either that or you knew very little theologically speaking to think that all under Christendom should or would be united on the Gospel and salvation.

If this is the reason for your apostasy then it's a really shallow uneducated flight you've taken, and you know Scripture states you were never of us; 1 John 2:19. You should also be fully aware of Romans 1 existence of God argument, and the societal judgment that follows. Biblically speaking, you're without excuse.

It appears you're demanding God to give you a sign, and you know that isn't going to happen. We have the Law and Moses, Luke 16:29, or what we call Scripture, and that's enough for God to save His people.
I have no demands on god.

By the way, did you listen to the Sproul video? Aseity of God? You cannot refute the reasoning there, all you can do is argue against it in unbelief. So why are you still on the fence? Is it not because you are not and never were truly converted? Could that be the issue here?
No I did not listen to that. I will find it.
 

amadeus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2008
23,227
33,187
113
81
Oklahoma
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
tares to me are bad ideas, I have tares right now I guess, I tend to prolly lecture rather than respond as a friend suggesting a possible better way to reason, etc.
The tares could simply be those ropes that bind us as they did the three Hebrews as they were thrown into the fiery furnace of Nebuchadnezzar. At the end on our road if we have nothing but wood, hay and stubble, what will there be left after the fire has done its thing? Where are the gold, silver and precious stones?

Our God is the consuming fire, but some things like the burning bush which Moses witnessed are not burned up. Why is that?
 

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,082
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
The tares could simply be those ropes that bind us as they did the three Hebrews as they were thrown into the fiery furnace of Nebuchadnezzar. At the end on our road if we have nothing but wood, hay and stubble, what will there be left after the fire has done its thing? Where are the gold, silver and precious stones?

Our God is the consuming fire, but some things like the burning bush which Moses witnessed are not burned up. Why is that?
boy good Q, dunno!
 

amadeus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2008
23,227
33,187
113
81
Oklahoma
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
boy good Q, dunno!
I would say that we need to have, or to be: gold, silver and/or precious stones which are purified rather than destroyed by the Fire. People want to call the fire, hell, but what if the fire is simply God. Who will remain untouched by the fire like the burning bush and who will be killed by the mere proximity to the intense heat of the flames like the soldiers who threw the 3 Hebrews into the furnace?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Helen and bbyrd009

CoreIssue

Well-Known Member
Oct 15, 2018
10,032
2,023
113
USA
christiantalkzone.net
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I agree.

But you cannot eliminate the natural explanations just because we don't know what that natural explanation is or would be. It could have been supernatural or a natural explanation we don't know about yet. The two look exactly the same.
Something from nothing is not natural.
 

CoreIssue

Well-Known Member
Oct 15, 2018
10,032
2,023
113
USA
christiantalkzone.net
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You are assuming that there was nothing at one time.

So you want to argue it has been there eternally. That is a supernatural claim science rejects. Nor can you tell me the cause that it has always existed.

Science is not your friend in this discussion.

You're not really here to learn truth. You're here to promote atheism.
 

Vince

Active Member
Feb 20, 2019
814
101
43
55
Ft Worth
Faith
Atheist
Country
United States
I can find videos of physicists that have calculated different ways it could have been done and can be done today for all of those items listed in the video. You like to jump to the supernatural for things that you don't understand. That is a logical fallacy.

Even if we don't have a machine to move a huge rock it does not mean that we cannot build one. Of course we can. But why would we if we only need it once?
 

CoreIssue

Well-Known Member
Oct 15, 2018
10,032
2,023
113
USA
christiantalkzone.net
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I can find videos of physicists that have calculated different ways it could have been done and can be done today for all of those items listed in the video. You like to jump to the supernatural for things that you don't understand. That is a logical fallacy.

Even if we don't have a machine to move a huge rock it does not mean that we cannot build one. Of course we can. But why would we if we only need it once?

Engineers have said we can't.
 

Vince

Active Member
Feb 20, 2019
814
101
43
55
Ft Worth
Faith
Atheist
Country
United States
So you want to argue it has been there eternally.
Not at all. Don't you understand that my position is I don't know? You keep saying things that I never said to make me have a position that I don't hold.

That is a supernatural claim science rejects. Nor can you tell me the cause that it has always existed.
I never made a claim only that I don't know and neither do you.

You're not really here to learn truth. You're here to promote atheism.
Are you willing to learn something? You keep making the same logical fallacy. It's an Argument from Ignorance. The fact is I don't know how the universe was created and neither do you. I don't know if there has always been something or if here was ever a nothing.

What is your definition of nothing?
 

lforrest

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Admin
Aug 10, 2012
6,089
7,477
113
Faith
Christian
tares to me are bad ideas, I have tares right now I guess, I tend to prolly lecture rather than respond as a friend suggesting a possible better way to reason, etc.

@amadeus

The tare, appears to be wheat until it is fully grown and the difference becomes apparent. The tare has a black fruit that stands straight. It is poisonous and can result in a drunken state if it doesn't kill you.
 

amadeus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2008
23,227
33,187
113
81
Oklahoma
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
@amadeus

The tare, appears to be wheat until it is fully grown and the difference becomes apparent. The tare has a black fruit that stands straight. It is poisonous and can result in a drunken state if it doesn't kill you.
Thanks for the information!
 

Helen

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2011
15,471
21,160
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
How many times do I have to say this, that I am not trying to disprove god. It is a possibility that he exists. If he does I want to know. I just want evidence that nobody here seems to have.

Thanks for your response.

You wont find any proof. If there was any proof it wouldn't be called Faith!!! :)

Bless you...