@Aunty Jane so if you want to explain how the Son of Man is in Heaven which you & I know is not possible, open a dialogue and lets see if Brakelight and you can work out how God sent His Son into the World. I've explained clearly that the Lord Jesus Christ did not pre-exist at all...only in the mind of His Father and came to being through the Power of the Holy Spirit. I've provided proof text and revealed how these things are so.
God was manifest through His Son - he was born the Son of Man and became the Son of God.
@Brakelite I don't beleive Christs pre-existence can be proven from Scripture and I've studied this for 30 years. If you can, happy to hear what you have to say.
F2F
F2F
This for other members to build upon your assertion Messiah did NOT "pre-exist" when Scripture says otherwise.
1. John 1:1 (Greek)
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος, καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος.
Translation: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
Key Greek Grammar: The verb "ἦν" (ēn) is an imperfect tense, indicating continuous existence. This tense implies that the Word (Logos) did not come into existence but always existed. The phrase "ἐν ἀρχῇ" (en archē) parallels Genesis 1:1, associating Jesus (the Logos) with the eternal existence of God.
2. John 8:58 (Greek)
εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Ἰησοῦς· ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγώ εἰμι.
Translation: "Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.'"
Key Greek Grammar: The verb "ἐγώ εἰμι" (egō eimi) is the present tense, yet it expresses eternal existence, similar to the divine name in Exodus 3:14 (LXX: Ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν). Jesus uses the present tense to declare that He existed before Abraham, affirming His preexistence.
3. Colossians 1:16-17 (Greek)
ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ ἐκτίσθη τὰ πάντα... αὐτὸς ἔστιν πρὸ πάντων καὶ τὰ πάντα ἐν αὐτῷ συνέστηκεν.
Translation: "For by Him all things were created... He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together."
Key Greek Grammar: The verb "ἐκτίσθη" (ektisthē) is in the aorist tense, indicating the completed action of creation, while "ἔστιν" (estin) is in the present tense, showing that Christ currently exists before all creation, emphasizing His preexistence and active role in sustaining creation.
4. Micah 5:2 (Hebrew)
וְאַתָּה בֵּית לֶחֶם אֶפְרָתָה צָעִיר לִהְיוֹת בְּאַלְפֵי יְהוּדָה... מִמְּךָ לִי יֵצֵא לִהְיוֹת מוֹשֵׁל בְּיִשְׂרָאֵל, וּמוֹצָאוֹתָיו מִקֶּדֶם מִימֵי עוֹלָם.
Translation: "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah... from you shall come forth for Me one who is to be ruler in Israel, whose coming forth is from of old, from ancient days."
Key Hebrew Grammar: The phrase "מִימֵי עוֹלָם" (mimei olam) translates as "from the days of eternity." This expression signifies the eternal origin of the Messiah, indicating preexistence beyond time.
5. Philippians 2:6-7 (Greek)
ὃς ἐν μορφῇ Θεοῦ ὑπάρχων οὐχ ἁρπαγμὸν ἡγήσατο τὸ εἶναι ἴσα Θεῷ... ἀλλ' ἑαυτὸν ἐκένωσεν.
Translation: "Who, being in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped... but emptied Himself."
Key Greek Grammar: The participle "ὑπάρχων" (huparchōn), meaning "being" or "existing," is in the present active participle, indicating Jesus' continuous existence in the form of God, thus affirming His preexistence prior to the incarnation.
6. John 17:5 (Greek)
καὶ νῦν δόξασόν με σύ, πάτερ, παρὰ σεαυτῷ τῇ δόξῃ ᾗ εἶχον πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι παρὰ σοί.
Translation: "And now, Father, glorify Me in Your own presence with the glory that I had with You before the world existed."
Key Greek Grammar: The verb "εἶχον" (eichon), an imperfect tense, indicates that Jesus continually had this glory with the Father before the creation of the world, affirming His eternal preexistence in divine glory.
7. John 1:3 (Greek)
πάντα δι' αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο, καὶ χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἕν.
Translation: "All things were made through Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made."
Key Greek Grammar: The verb "ἐγένετο" (egeneto) is in the aorist tense, denoting the action of creation as having been completed. Jesus is described as the one through whom all things came into being, asserting His role in creation and thus His preexistence.
8. Hebrews 1:2 (Greek)
ἐπ' ἐσχάτου τῶν ἡμερῶν τούτων ἐλάλησεν ἡμῖν ἐν υἱῷ... δι' οὗ καὶ ἐποίησεν τοὺς αἰῶνας.
Translation: "In these last days He has spoken to us by His Son... through whom He created the world."
Key Greek Grammar: The verb "ἐποίησεν" (epoiēsen) is aorist, showing the completion of creation. The Son (Jesus) is the agent of creation, again confirming His preexistence as He was active before the world was formed.
9. Proverbs 8:22-23 (Hebrew)
יְהוָה קָנָנִי רֵאשִׁית דַּרְכּוֹ קֶדֶם מִפְעָלָיו מֵאָז מֵעוֹלָם נִסַּכְתִּי מֵרֹאשׁ מִקַּדְמֵי אָרֶץ.
Translation: "The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His work, the first of His acts of old. Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth."
Key Hebrew Grammar: The verb "נִסַּכְתִּי" (nissakhti) means "I was established" or "appointed," pointing to the eternal existence of Wisdom, often understood as a foreshadowing of Christ, established before creation.
10. Revelation 22:13 (Greek)
ἐγώ εἰμι τὸ ἄλφα καὶ τὸ Ὦ, ὁ πρῶτος καὶ ὁ ἔσχατος, ἡ ἀρχὴ καὶ τὸ τέλος.
Translation: "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."
Key Greek Grammar: The present tense "ἐγώ εἰμι" (I am) asserts continual existence without beginning or end. Jesus identifies Himself as the eternal One, reaffirming His preexistence and divinity.
Each of these passages highlights aspects of Christ's eternal, preexistent nature through careful examination of Greek and Hebrew texts, grammatical structures, and theological implications.
I will only be an observer.
Shalom
J.
