Thanks so much, and I have also read their commentaries... and these guys are indeed heavy hitters..
When was the A.O.D fulfilled?
- Thread starter Stewardofthemystery
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
If you do not mind, I would like to offer a new interpretation that is placed in my recent commentary on the Book of Daniel and it departs from any of "today's accepted interpretations." However, in a very recent response (page 49) IndianaRob had made such an interpretation!!
1) the "abomination," is none other than the rejection and crucifixion of their Messiah on the cross.
2) the "desolation" is the consequences of their decisions. As a result of their abominable act against their Messiah, He would "make desolate" Him from His people for the next 2000 years - until the "time of the Gentiles" is complete, and then He will return to them and remove their blindness from their eyes just as He did with Paul.
Look forward to all of your comments.....
Well, first, I really don't need to reconcile my interpretation to theirs... we have access to the same verses but come away with very different interpretations.... which is why I wanted to mention the top 3 or 4 of today's accepted interpretations. I don't know if I mentioned it or not, but just about all interpreters use a "historical" approach to interpreting Daniel. Meaning, they sit with the Book of Daniel on the left side of their desk and with a set of history books on the right side of their desk. They then go back and forth trying to match the events and actors in Daniel to the actors and events within their history books. That is why there are so many different interpretations - the Book of Daniel is not a history book and God will include and exclude whatever He desires that is found within His plan of salvation / restoration for His people, His city and mankind. He is not obligated to follow along the time lines or the specific actors or kingdoms one might find in our history books. Every word and sentence and actor and event within His prophetic book is necessary. Every word or sentence and actor and event found in our history books and not found in Daniel is therefore unnecessary for Him to reveal His plan.
I have studied Daniel for 5 consecutive years to complete my commentary and the biggest flaw is this issue - using the "historical" approach rather than a Messianic approach. The Book of Daniel is found in the Tanakh which does not belong or is found in the history section of our library. After reading all of "today's accepted interpretations" by all the brilliant scholars, academics and theologians, I came away realizing they did not even agree with each other. And they were very different in their views. I simply could not reconcile THEIR different views. But after a full year of getting absolutely no where, I finally realized it was their "approach" that was wrong. They all failed to look for the Messiah and His plan of restoration / salvation within Daniel. Then the Book of Daniel was wide open to me.
Chapter 2 give us the blueprint or the structure of His plan of salvation for mankind. God would bring 4 and only 4 kingdoms out of the sea or the earth that would play a part in His plan of salvation from 606 BC to His second coming. Also, God would identify ALL the actors that would play a part in the 12 chapters in Chapter 2 - with the exception of ONE entity. That one entity would be the little horn of Daniel 7 and 8. Besides a brief mention of Gabriel, Michael, Jesus of course, the 4 generals and the reference to Titus, the mention of Darius and Cyrus, the little horn is the ONLY actor found outside of Chapter 2.
Now, if that is true, and I believe it is, then one can see that trying to follow our history books would break down rather quickly. God is not writing to match our history books, He is not writing in the same language, He is not writing these chapters in a chronological manner, and He definitely IS writing and predicting His first coming on the first day of the 70the week, His destruction, His setting up His kingdom on earth, the rejection of His people leading to their complete desolation for over 2000 years and the destruction of His city, the Temple, etc., in 70 AD. But He will also spend alot of "ink" identifying, describing, prophecising and revealing the beginning of His church on the earth after the cross,, its corruption and eventual appropriation by the little horn by around 530 AD who will continue until the Time of the Gentiles is over. I can promise you that most of this is not found in any of today's accepted interpretations of the Book of Daniel because they are not found in our history books.
I would be happy to discuss this issue with you but I would request that you might offer your thougths on the definition of the AOD and why you believe it so... and of course, I am sure you are able to match the verses in the NT to this event...
So, please try and take it slowly since there is so much to this one topic and it can explode anytime if we don't try and focus on each verse or event as opposed to the broader interpretation. Thanks so much.
Covenantee biblical doctrine is established by “here a little there a little”. This comes from here.
Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Matthew 24 gives part of the story while Luke 21 gives another part of the story.
The abomination of desolation happened when Jesus stood in the holy place (which was the cross) and at that same time armies surrounded Jerusalem. Details on the army surrounding Jerusalem are only found in the Old Testament.
When you put all these pieces of the story together it gives a complete picture of everything going on around the abomination of desolation.
tailgator
Well-Known Member
Revelation gives the best description of the abomination of desolation and the great tribulation which comes from.it.
Apparently you didnt go there a little.
You believe 70 ad was bad.Wait till hundreds of millions of people are consumed.Now that will be great tribulation.
All of the nations which attack Jerusalem both inside of Israel and outside in the surrounding countries are consumned.All those armies in Israel at the time are but fuel for the fire.
Zech 14
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth
Here Luke is still describing the abomination that causes desolation.
Luke 21
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Here a little,there a little
Last edited:
In pretty sure their flesh was consumed away when God came down from heaven and avenged the murder of his son.
tailgator
Well-Known Member
None of the Romans were destroyed.
Where are you getting your history from?
This was not fufilled in 70 ad.No one was consumed.
Zech 14
14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Last edited:
tailgator
Well-Known Member
Here a little ,there a little.
Mathew 24:22
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Zech 14
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth
Mathew 24:22
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Zech 14
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth
tailgator
Well-Known Member
Here a little ,there a little.
Luke 21
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory
Zech 14
14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
Luke 21
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory
Zech 14
14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
God coming down from heaven to avenge the murder of his son isn’t recorded in the gospels it’s recorded in 2 Samuel 22.
2Sa 22:5 When the waves of death compassed me, the floods of ungodly men made me afraid;
2Sa 22:6 The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;
2Sa 22:7 In my distress I called upon the LORD, and cried to my God: and he did hear my voice out of his temple, and my cry did enter into his ears.
2Sa 22:8 Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations of heaven moved and shook, because he was wroth.
2Sa 22:9 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.
2Sa 22:10 He bowed the heavens also, and came down; and darkness was under his feet.
2Sa 22:11 And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: and he was seen upon the wings of the wind.
2Sa 22:12 And he made darkness pavilions round about him, dark waters, and thick clouds of the skies.
2Sa 22:13 Through the brightness before him were coals of fire kindled.
2Sa 22:14 The LORD thundered from heaven, and the most High uttered his voice.
2Sa 22:15 And he sent out arrows, and scattered them; lightning, and discomfited them.
2Sa 22:16 And the channels of the sea appeared, the foundations of the world were discovered, at the rebuking of the LORD, at the blast of the breath of his nostrils.
2Sa 22:17 He sent from above, he took me; he drew me out of many waters;
2Sa 22:18 He delivered me from my strong enemy, and from them that hated me: for they were too strong for me.
2Sa 22:19 They prevented me in the day of my calamity: but the LORD was my stay.
2Sa 22:20 He brought me forth also into a large place: he delivered me, because he delighted in me.
tailgator
Well-Known Member
None of the Romans were consumed.Zech 14 or Luke 21 was not fufilled in 70.ad.
Here a little ,there a little.
Mathew 24:22
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Zech 14
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth
Yes, Matthew 24:15 and Luke 21:20 together identify the abomination of desolation, which was the armies surrounding Jerusalem.
What Scripture verses support your interpretation?
Isa 34:1 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.
Isa 34:2 For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
Isa 34:3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.
Isa 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
Isa 34:5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.
Isa 34:6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.
Isa 34:7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.
Isa 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
Neither of the words "abomination" or any of its derivatives, or "desolation" or any of its derivatives, appears in those verses.
Nor do any of those verses reference Matthew 24:15 or Luke 21:20.
Nor do Matthew 24:15 or Luke 21:20 reference any of the Isaiah verses.
Isaiah 34
5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.
Idumea, home of the Edomites who were implacable enemies of Israel, was destroyed in the 6th century BCE.
Nothing to do with the abomination of desolation destroying Jerusalem in 70 AD.
Sorry for the length of this response and it will have to be sent in two installments. It is a cut / paste from my recent commentary on the Book of Daniel. I only ask that you consider this..... Further, although it is not mentioned below, I believe you might agree that 9:24- 27 speask of the coming Messiah and being cut-off in the middle of the week. The Messiah will fulfill the types and shadows of the Leveitical ceremony during the Passover festival: He will be our High Priest, our Temple, our Sanctuary, our Passover Lamb, and of course His death would do away with all of those physical elements mentioned above as well as the daily sacrifices and offerings. And most importantly, the Messiah could NOT accomplish any of these things unless He was pure and cleansed of sin - no different than the High Priest, the Temple, etc., before they could conduct the Passover feast. Meaning, the Messiah must honor those exact same Levitical rituals necessary to be deemed "clear or pure" found in Leviticus. To be FOUND ANYTHING OTHER THAN CLEANSED, THE PASSOVER FEAST, THE TEMPLE, ETC., COULD NOT TAKE PLACE === THEY WOULD BE DECLARED "UNCLEAN."
And this is where the term "abominable" comes from as it relates to Jesus. When Jesus took on the sin of the world, He would no longer be "clean or pure." According to the definition in Leviticus He would be and unclean thing -an "abomination." No unclean thing can be found within the Sanctuary, Temple, etc.
Part 1.
27c-And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, even until the consummation, which is determined, is poured out on the desolate
There are a few important terms within 27c that must be unpacked before this prophecy can be understood:
1. the "abomination that causes desolation."
2. the term "desolation."
3. the term "consummation."
4. “poured out on the desolate.”
The "abomination that causes desolation"
Among the many theories that have been offered, interpretations often center on the physical destruction of the Temple. These varied theories, spanning different time periods, associate the "Temple" with several key events: the Temple's destruction in 70 AD, the defilement during the time of Antiochus Epiphanes about 200 years earlier, or the anticipated destruction of a supposedly rebuilt Temple 2000 years in the future. However, it is important to understand that this phrase does not pertain to the physical destruction of the Temple, regardless of the time period in question. Instead, the focus should be on the deeper spiritual implications and the fulfillment of the prophecy through the Messiah's redemptive work.
A widely accepted interpretation involves the Jesuits' seven-year tribulation theory, or gap theory, which projects the last week of Daniel’s seventy-weeks-of-years prophecy about 2000 years into the future. Within this framework, the "one who makes desolate" is misidentified as a mythical anti-Christ figure that has yet to come. However, the Book of Daniel, particularly the messianic prophecies in Chapter 9, focuses on the coming Messiah and His plan of salvation for the Jews and all of humanity. But the Messiah has been completely overlooked – The death and crucifixion of Jesus is the “abomination that will cause desolation.” You just cannot miss him—that is, unless you want to!
Verse 27c speaks about the Messiah. He is the "One" who will cause .. The "abomination or transgression that causes desolation" is the cross; it is the crucifixion that will cause this complete "desolation."
The crucifixion of Jesus, the Messiah, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, is a profoundly tragic and significant event in the history of humanity. This is the true meaning of the “abomination that causes desolation.”
It represents an act of immense sorrow and gravity, surpassing any act of disobedience, transgression, or iniquity that the Jews or humanity could ever commit against their God. It stands as a powerful reminder of the ultimate sacrifice and the depths of human frailty. Can there be a greater injustice, a more evil act, or a more horrendous definition of an "abomination"?
Limiting our interpretation of this profound term to the destruction of a physical building, especially one that fulfilled its purpose at the cross, is a significant oversight. The term cannot refer to a building or even a city, regardless of its holiness. Both were destroyed by Babylon, so their destruction cannot fully embody the meaning of the abomination that causes desolation. Instead, it is the crucifixion of the Messiah that represents the ultimate abomination, signifying a deep desolation by impacting the connection between the Jews and their God through an incredibly unjust act.
It is the literal act (the cross) that causes the spiritual desolation between the Jews and their God. The physical structures have been done away with; they have fulfilled their God-given mission.
Here are three verses in the New Testament that speak directly to Daniel 9:27c (should you accept it):
Matthew 24:15, 15Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (whoever reads, let him understand,)
Mark 13:14, 14But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,)
Luke 21:20, 20But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.
Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14 both speak of the “abomination of desolation,” but there is a very noticeable difference between the two, while Luke does not mention this phrase. Rather, he speaks to the desolation of physical things, and the timing of the desolation that will come upon the Jews.
Matthew 24:15.…. “standing in the holy place.”
Mark 13:14……… “standing where it ought not.”
Luke 21:20………. “but when you see Jerusalem.”
These three verses are meant to send their own unique message as well as confirm the timing and identity of the abomination that causes desolation.
In the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus refers to the "abomination that causes desolation" standing in the holy place (Matthew 24:15). This phrase is often interpreted literally, suggesting someone physically standing in the holy place, but some 2000 years in the future. Given the context of Matthew's Gospel, which was written specifically for a Jewish audience, this interpretation carries deep significance. Matthew’s aim was to affirm to his Jewish readers that Jesus was indeed the Messiah, their King, and their High Priest. Therefore, it is entirely fitting to understand Jesus, the Messiah, standing in the holy place. This aligns with His role and mission, confirming His divine authority and presence in the Temple, and His legitimate claim as the Anointed One. It underscores His fulfillment of the sacrificial system and the establishment of a new covenant. His crucifixion can be seen as the most grievous act in history, leading to a period of desolation with His people for the next 2000 years. This interpretation connects His physical presence in the Temple with the ultimate sacrifice He made on the cross, highlighting the profound spiritual implications of His mission.
In the Gospel of Mark, the portrayal of Jesus as the Suffering Servant is central to the narrative. Mark's audience, primarily Gentile Christians, would resonate with the depiction of Jesus as one who came to serve and suffer for humanity. This perspective influences the interpretation of the "abomination that causes desolation" differently than in Matthew's Gospel. While Matthew’s Gospel positions Jesus in the holy place to highlight His role as the Messiah and High Priest, Mark’s focus on Jesus as the Suffering Servant shifts the emphasis away from a literal presence in the Temple. A servant, even the Suffering Servant, would not typically be found in the holy place, that is not where servants belong. But Jesus would indeed be found there.
Mark underscores Jesus's mission and actions as a servant who fulfills God’s will through His suffering and service to humanity.
This perspective sees the betrayal and crucifixion of Jesus, the Suffering Servant, as the ultimate rejection, leading to spiritual desolation. Therefore, in Mark’s narrative, the holy place is not just a physical location but symbolizes the sacred mission of Jesus. His service, suffering, and sacrifice are the true holy actions that fulfill the prophecy, highlighting the profound spiritual implications of His mission.
In the Gospel of Luke, Jesus's life is presented in a chronological order, highlighting His identity as the Son of Man and His mission to bring redemption to humanity. Luke carefully traces Jesus's genealogy back to Adam, emphasizing His deep connection with all people and His role as the ultimate redeemer. Throughout Luke's narrative, Jesus's dual nature as both fully human and divine is emphasized. While He embodies complete humanity, Luke also portrays Him as the divine Messiah through His teachings, miracles, and fulfillment of Old Testament prophecies.
Similar threads
