When was the A.O.D fulfilled?

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Spiritual Israelite

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You've shown nothing, friend.
Great response....friend. Very convincing.

You've shown nothing, friend. While Genesis 2:7 KJV does not allow the "soul" to be defined as anything but the "whole of man" - every other verse you appeal to for "proof otherwise" is an inflexible subjective interpretation.
Another really convincing argument.

Again, your argument is based on a gratuitous inflexible subjective interpretation which demands "soul" be a "part" of man rather than the "whole" of man. Verse 23 means "life" - Paul simply is praying that our whole "life" be preserved along with our spirit and body.
Nope. That's not at all what he said. You are trying to change what he said to say what you want it to say.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

First, Paul expresses that he wants God to sanctify "you wholly" and then proceeds to describe "you wholly" as "your whole spirit and soul and body". He clearly differentiates between the spirit, the soul and the body there and indicates that is what makes up the whole person. It's obvious. But, you deny it, anyway.
 

Phoneman777

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No, Paul does not say that. He only says we look forward to having immortal bodies. He said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, so that clearly means you don't need to have a body to be present with the Lord. There's no other way to understand what he said.
I'm about to drop a 100-megaton Truth Bomb on you with incalculable collateral damage:

In 2 Corinthians 5, Paul plainly says the life that swallows up mortality is the life in which we are "clothed upon"...agreed?

So, if "naked, unclothed, disembodied immortal souls" that supposedly go straight to heaven are not at this moment experiencing "mortality-swallowing life" via a "life clothed in an immortal body" - what the flip are they experiencing...mortality-swallowing death?

Logical Progression can't lie, friend, so there's no getting around this. The Immortal Soul crowd is found guilty of what is perhaps the greatest hermeneutical blunder of all time: interpreting 2 Corinthians 5 in such a way to force the unavoidable conclusion that "immortal" souls in heaven are dead".

That's right: immortality = death. And, we all know what Solomon says about dead folks, right?

Good gravy, the mushroom cloud appears to "ascendeth up forever and ever".
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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I'm about to drop a 100-megaton Truth Bomb on you with incalculable collateral damage:
You know someone has a huge ego and needs to humble himself when he says something ridiculous like this. Oh boy, here we go. How exciting. Let's read on...

In 2 Corinthians 5, Paul plainly says the life that swallows up mortality is the life in which we are "clothed upon"...agreed?
That is talking about bodily mortality, not mortality in general. Once again, you are taking scripture out of context. Nothing new here. What a dud. Where's the truth bomb? LOL.

So, if "naked, unclothed, disembodied immortal souls" that supposedly go straight to heaven are not at this moment experiencing "mortality-swallowing life" via a "life clothed in an immortal body" - what the flip are they experiencing...mortality-swallowing death?
LOL. Paul is talking there about the same thing he wrote about here:

Romans 8:21 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Just because the dead in Christ are waiting for the redemption of their bodies so that they can have immortal bodies and do all the things that we'll be able to do with our immortal bodies does not mean their souls have no consciousness. That's a major leap in logic.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

You just continue to deny the obvious. You ridiculously try to make Luke 16:19-31 into a parable. You will try to say that we can't take anything in this passage literally and all the nonsense you normally come up with. But, scripture is clear that people have consciousness after physical death. Moses was never resurrected as you falsely claim and he was not talking to Jesus in his sleep at His transfiguration. You're continuously trying to get around these things, but it can't be done.

If believers are not conscious after physical death, then why in the world would scripture so strongly give us that impression? Just to mess with us? No, it does that because it's true.

Logical Progression can't lie, friend, so there's no getting around this.
There's plenty of ways around your false soul sleep doctrine as I've already demonstated many times at this point. You keep coming back for more even after I've already refuted your doctrine I don't know how many times now.

The Immortal Soul crowd is found guilty of what is perhaps the greatest hermeneutical blunder of all time: interpreting 2 Corinthians 5 in such a way to force the unavoidable conclusion that "immortal" souls in heaven are dead".

That's right: immortality = death. And, we all know what Solomon says about dead folks, right?

Good gravy, the mushroom cloud appears to "ascendeth up forever and ever".
Are verses 6 to 8 in your Bible or not?

Your "mushroom cloud" was a big dud.

2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight: ) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Tell me, what does it mean to be "at home in the body"? It means to be physically/bodily alive, right? So, what then does it mean to be absent from the body? It means to be physically dead, right? Are you following along? In your doctrine is it possible to be "absent from the body" and "present with the Lord"? No. Yet, Paul said it is. And he said when someone is absent from the body (physically/bodily dead) they are then present with the Lord. Where is the Lord? In heaven. What part of us is there with the Lord when we are absent from the body? Our souls and spirits. You remember the soul and the spirit, right? That parts of us that Paul said we have (1 Thess 5:23) that you deny?
 

tailgator

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The church leaves at the 5th Seal. No such thing as an immortal body in Scripture.

Do you enjoy swapping Greek and Roman mythology into your theology?

The OT redeemed came out of their graves in permanent incorruptible physical bodies, the same as Lazarus. You get a permanent incorruptible physical body when your soul enters Paradise.


Only those alive at the Second Coming have to wait, so no, no one gets a permanent incorruptible physical body, until the soul leaves Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

Only those alive in Adam's dead corruptible flesh have to wait for that Trumpet sound.

The dead in Christ are sleeping and waiting still.

1 Thes 4

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.





I recon Jesus and Paul is what you are calling Roman and Greek mythology.
 

rwb

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In what circumstance do statements like "a car has a car" and "a TV has a TV" be applicable?

Here, the word "soul" remains defined as the "whole of man" - not a "part of man". The word "nephesh" means "life" - not a disembodied ghost that flies off at death.

In these cases, it means "his life" or "my life" - not a disembodied ghost.

Correct! Man was not given a soul nor is he comprised of a soul - man IS a soul.

The word soul indicates life. Man was created with body + breath of life (spirit) and man became a living soul. Man can have life whether in human form or spirit form. Because the breath of life in human bodies comes from our spirit. And all spirits return to God who gave it. Even the spirit that gave Jesus' body physical life returned to the Father in heaven when His body died. His spirit was very much alive after His body breathed its last. Through His spirit He descended into the lower parts of the earth to set the captives free, taking them, as spiritual body with Him to heaven.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Luke 23:46 (KJV) And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

The spirit that gives man's physical body life has the Spirit of Christ within when a man dies in Christ. Through the Spirit of Christ that man, a spiritual body returns to God in heaven alive a spiritual body, still a living soul without human form. Because wherever there is life either physical or spiritual there is a living soul. And man has both a natural body and a spiritual body. All who die in Christ have the Lord's promise that just as death could not hold Him, neither shall death hold those who die in Him. When our natural body dies, it is raised a spiritual body.

1 Corinthians 15:44 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

If life after physical death is not true, then Christ would not have said that whosoever lives and believes in Him shall NEVER die! We have His promise, our life does not end, nor does our spirit sleep after physical death. When we are of faith in Christ we shall never cease to be "living souls" in heaven.
 

rwb

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There is more than one definition for the word "soul". Paul taught that a person, who can also be called a soul, is made up of body, soul and spirit.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The word "soul" can refer to a person/human being and also to the part of a person called the soul. John said he saw the souls OF THEM who were physically dead (Rev 6:9, Rev 20:4). That shows that he saw a part of them called the soul. It doesn't say he "saw souls that were slain", it says "he saw THE souls OF THEM that were slain" (Rev 6:9).

I believe Scripture tells us that man is made from the dust of the earth (physical body) and has a breath of life (spirit) that gives there physical body life, and together body + spirit become living souls. Soul can refer to the whole natural body, or it can refer to the spiritual body alive in heaven. Because to be a soul means to have life whether physical or spiritual. That's why John writes that he saw the souls of those who were martyred for their faith. John did not see physical bodies alive, because there is not a physical body alive without a head. It is through our spirit indwelt with the Spirit of Christ that returns to God in heaven with life (living soul) after physical death for all who have died in Christ, and that is what John saw the spiritual body of Christ alive in heaven after physical death. Wherever there is the breath of life (spirit) there is a living soul.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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I believe Scripture tells us that man is made from the dust of the earth (physical body) and has a breath of life (spirit) that gives there physical body life, and together body + spirit become living souls. Soul can refer to the whole natural body, or it can refer to the spiritual body alive in heaven.
Or it can refer to the part of man that is called the soul, as Paul did.

1 Thess 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Because to be a soul means to have life whether physical or spiritual. That's why John writes that he saw the souls of those who were martyred for their faith.
He did not say he saw "souls who were slain", he said he saw THE souls OF THEM that were slain. That means he saw a part OF THEM which is their souls.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Let's say I was at a concert towards the back with a bad vantage point where I couldn't see much and I said I saw the hands of them who were raising their hands at the concert. Am I referring to seeing the whole bodies of those people or am I just saying I saw their hands while they were raised in the air?

John did not see physical bodies alive, because there is not a physical body alive without a head. It is through our spirit indwelt with the Spirit of Christ that returns to God in heaven with life (living soul) after physical death for all who have died in Christ, and that is what John saw the spiritual body of Christ alive in heaven after physical death. Wherever there is the breath of life (spirit) there is a living soul.
If that was the case then why did John say he saw the souls of them that were slain instead of saying he saw the spiritual bodies of them that were slain?
 

rwb

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You've shown nothing, friend. While Genesis 2:7 KJV does not allow the "soul" to be defined as anything but the "whole of man" - every other verse you appeal to for "proof otherwise" is an inflexible subjective interpretation.

The Bible also shows martyred souls in heaven after death that are very much alive. Clearly, a living soul can also define a spiritual body in heaven. Wherever there is a breath of life (spirit) there is a living soul. Since the life believers possess in Christ is eternal, even physical death cannot take kill our spirit. We continue to possess the breath of life (spiritual) as souls in heaven, spirits returned to God alive through the Spirit of Christ within.
Again, your argument is based on a gratuitous inflexible subjective interpretation which demands "soul" be a "part" of man rather than the "whole" of man. Verse 23 means "life" - Paul simply is praying that our whole "life" be preserved along with our spirit and body.

I agree man consists of body + breath of life (spirit) and together is a living soul. But as long as we possess the breath of life (spirit), we are living soul. Every living breathing creature is a soul with body and breath of life (spirit). It is the spirit that gives our natural body life, and our body is no longer a living soul after death, it is a corpse. But our spirit through the Spirit of Christ is ETERNAL and can never die, so when our natural body dies, our spirit alive returns to God still a living soul, albeit without physical form. We shall then be like the angels of God in heaven spiritual body of Christ.
 

Phoneman777

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You know someone has a huge ego and needs to humble himself
It's not egotistical or boastful or arrogant to claim to have the truth...when you indeed have it.
That is talking about bodily mortality, not mortality in general. Once again, you are taking scripture out of context. Nothing new here. What a dud. Where's the truth bomb? LOL
Open your eyes to see Paul equates being "clothed upon" with an immortal body with "life" - understand?

"..BUT CLOTHED UPON, THAT MORTALITY MIGHT BE SWALLOWED UP OF LIFE."

Get it? Paul is saying we don't have "life" unless we're "clothed upon" with an immortal body.
LOL. Paul is talking there about the same thing he wrote about here:
even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Friend, I don't need you help to make my points, but gracias. Notice the "adoption" ceremony takes place at "the redemption of our body" - is that at death?

It's "at the last trump".
Just because the dead in Christ are waiting for the redemption of their bodies so that they can have immortal bodies and do all the things that we'll be able to do with our immortal bodies does not mean their souls have no consciousness. That's a major leap in logic.
You still don't get it. Paul equates "life" with being "clothed upon" - not being naked and unclothed.

"Disembodied immortal souls" that are unclothed have no "life" with which to swallow up mortality.

What do we call that which has no life?
Revelation 6:9
Another gross hermeneutical violation: building doctrines buy appealing to figurative, uninterpreted prophetic passages.
You ridiculously try to make Luke 16:19-31 into a parable.
Nah, I clearly show the monumental contradictions which arise from making the passage literal.
But, scripture is clear that people have consciousness after physical death.
Who's shown to have consciousness in death?
Moses was never resurrected as you falsely claim
After we die, "life" only comes by being "clothed upon" with an immortal body.

Do the math.

Resurrected Moses was there with Jesus.
You're continuously trying to get around these things, but it can't be done.
I've proved to you once and for all that "life" after death comes only by being "clothed upon" - not naked.
If believers are not conscious after physical death, then why in the world would scripture so strongly give us that impression?
Yes, Scripture gives no inkling of that, right?

"The living know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything".
"His sons come to honor and he knoweth it not...they are brought low and he perceiveth it not."
"There is no work nor device nor knowledge nor wisdom in the grave, whither thou goest".
"The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence."
"If the dead rise not, your faith is in vain, ye are yet in your sins."
"Shall Thy wonders be known in the dark and Thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness"?
There's plenty of ways around your false soul sleep doctrine
You cannot escape the truth that Paul equates "life" with "clothed upon" which means your "naked, unclothed, disembodied souls in heaven" are either dead or don't exist. I'll help you: they don't exist.
Are verses 6 to 8 in your Bible or not?
Yes, but I don't interpret them with this:

1723768506846.png
Tell me, what does it mean to be "at home in the body"?
Clothed in mortality.
So, what then does it mean to be absent from the body?
Unclothed in mortality.
In your doctrine is it possible to be "absent from the body" and "present with the Lord"?
Yes, in a resurrection body.
And he said when someone is absent from the body (physically/bodily dead) they are then present with the Lord.
Nope. He said our will aka our preference aka our druthers - is to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. But he knew mortality won't be swallowed up of "life" which he equates with "clothed upon" in an immortality body until "the last trump".

Christians on Sunday want to be absent from the church pew and present at the Cracker Barrel - does that eliminate the drive from the one to the other?

He's simply saying "I want to be absent from the body, skip lying naked and unclothed without a body dead in the grave, and just be clothed upon in my immortal body of "life" and be with the Lord."
What part of us is there with the Lord when we are absent from the body? Our souls and spirits.
At death, the spirit goes up, but the soul goes down, remember?

"Into Thy hands I comment My spirit".
"Lord Jesus, recieve my spirit".

"His soul was not left in hell".
"For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell."


You're doctrine's so incredibly fragmented, it requires a team of NTBS agents or a learned SDA to dissect it.
 

Dennis Gannon

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While there is still a lot of Premillennial and Dispensationalist churches, you have to wonder if they have been born again. Along with those false beliefs, they have other false beliefs that are serious. Thanks to the internet, ignorance is harder to maintain by the false teachers.
 
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rwb

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He did not say he saw "souls who were slain", he said he saw THE souls OF THEM that were slain. That means he saw a part OF THEM which is their souls.

He saw life where there should be none. To be a soul without human form is to be alive in heaven a spiritual body.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Yes they continued to possess life (souls) after physical death, but they could not ascend to heaven a spiritual body until after the cross and resurrection. To be waiting under the altar IMO is the same as saying they were sheltered in the bosom of Abraham waiting for Christ to come and set them free.
If that was the case then why did John say he saw the souls of them that were slain instead of saying he saw the spiritual bodies of them that were slain?

It is my opinion that the word 'saw' is not necessarily to be defined as physical sight. It can also mean John was made aware, or that he had been given to understand the spiritual body in heaven though physically slain still possessed life or continued to be souls in heaven.
 

Phoneman777

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The word soul indicates life. Man was created with body + breath of life (spirit) and man became a living soul. Man can have life whether in human form or spirit form. Because the breath of life in human bodies comes from our spirit. And all spirits return to God who gave it. Even the spirit that gave Jesus' body physical life returned to the Father in heaven when His body died. His spirit was very much alive after His body breathed its last.
Exactly, the word "soul" indicates "human being" or "life" - not a disembodied ghost. The Bible says all creatures have "life" - does that mean they have "disembodied souls"?

BTW, Jesus' spirit went up but His soul went down.
Through His spirit He descended into the lower parts of the earth to set the captives free, taking them, as spiritual body with Him to heaven.
That's a popular but erroneous interpretation. Jesus "preached to the spirits in prison" refers to the God's spirit striving with the Antediluvians who were in the "prison house of sin" through the preaching of Noah. The context makes this plain.
a spiritual body returns to God in heaven alive a spiritual body, still a living soul without human form.
The Bible mentions only the "earthly house" mortal body and the "building of God" immortal body - "spiritual body" refers to the latter, not some "disembodied body" people assign to Luke 16 or "immortal souls in heaven".

Paul equates "life" with "clothed upon" in an immortal body...which by logical extension demands the "naked" and "unclothed" have zero life, and thus "disembodied immortal souls in heaven" don't exist.
Because wherever there is life either physical or spiritual there is a living soul.
Human life is either clothed in a mortal or an immortal body. In the absence of either, there simply is no life.
And man has both a natural body and a spiritual body.
Yes, the "earthly house" now and the "house not made with hands" later.
When our natural body dies, it is raised a spiritual body.
Yes, "at the last trump".
If life after physical death is not true, then Christ would not have said that whosoever lives and believes in Him shall NEVER die!
Christ also taught the same lesson, saying "...though he were dead, yet shall he live."

What harmonizes the two?

The phrase "never die" refers to the Second Death which no righteous one will ever die.
We have His promise, our life does not end
That's what the serpent said, right?
nor does our spirit sleep after physical death.
"Lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death".
"Our friend Lazarus sleepeth".
When we are of faith in Christ we shall never cease to be "living souls" in heaven.
Since the Soul comes into existence as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life, the Soul cannot continue to exist at the disunion of the two any more than a light bulb can continue to emit light when the current is removed.
 

Phoneman777

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The Bible also shows martyred souls in heaven after death that are very much alive.
Any scholar will tell us we can't base a doctrine on uninterpreted, symbolic passages in Revelation, which you can find everywhere online.
Clearly, a living soul can also define a spiritual body in heaven. Wherever there is a breath of life (spirit) there is a living soul. Since the life believers possess in Christ is eternal, even physical death cannot take kill our spirit. We continue to possess the breath of life (spiritual) as souls in heaven, spirits returned to God alive through the Spirit of Christ within.


I agree man consists of body + breath of life (spirit) and together is a living soul. But as long as we possess the breath of life (spirit), we are living soul. Every living breathing creature is a soul with body and breath of life (spirit). It is the spirit that gives our natural body life, and our body is no longer a living soul after death, it is a corpse. But our spirit through the Spirit of Christ is ETERNAL and can never die, so when our natural body dies, our spirit alive returns to God still a living soul, albeit without physical form. We shall then be like the angels of God in heaven spiritual body of Christ.
Yes, the spirit is eternal, but the soul is not. Genesis 2:7 KJV says it exists only as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life. :)
 

rwb

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Open your eyes to see Paul equates being "clothed upon" with an immortal body with "life" - understand?

"..BUT CLOTHED UPON, THAT MORTALITY MIGHT BE SWALLOWED UP OF LIFE."

Get it? Paul is saying we don't have "life" unless we're "clothed upon" with an immortal body.

If that is what Paul is saying, why does he write the following?

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 (KJV) Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Paul fully understood that when his natural body would be dead and buried, he would be spiritual body in heaven as a living soul without human form, as are the angels of God in heaven.

"Disembodied immortal souls" that are unclothed have no "life" with which to swallow up mortality.

This is only true of those who die in unbelief. Their spirit too returns to God, but without life through the Spirit of Christ. They are the DEAD that shall go down in death to silence and darkness, no more breath of life (spirit) means no soul, only a corpse.

Who's shown to have consciousness in death?

This great innumerable multitude with the angels before the throne of God in heaven are clearly conscious as living spiritual souls. They are before the throne of God, serving Him day and night in His temple and He that sits on the throne is with them.

Revelation 7:9-15 (KJV) After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

John 14:2-3 (KJV) In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

After we die, "life" only comes by being "clothed upon" with an immortal body.

Not so! Life comes from the spirit, and eternal life from Christ's Spirit within us.

John 6:62-63 (KJV) What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

"The living know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything".
"His sons come to honor and he knoweth it not...they are brought low and he perceiveth it not."
"There is no work nor device nor knowledge nor wisdom in the grave, whither thou goest".
"The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence."
"If the dead rise not, your faith is in vain, ye are yet in your sins."
"Shall Thy wonders be known in the dark and Thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness"?

You see life only from the physical realm. You seem not to understand that eternal life assured believers by Christ speaks not of the physical realm but the spiritual realm. That's why Christ says, His Kingdom is not now of this world, nor can the Kingdom of God be seen with physical sight, and His Kingdom is known and entered only to those who have been born again. Because the Kingdom of God is not physical it is a spiritual Kingdom.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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It is my opinion that the word 'saw' is not necessarily to be defined as physical sight. It can also mean John was made aware, or that he had been given to understand the spiritual body in heaven though physically slain still possessed life or continued to be souls in heaven.
I totally disagree, but for the sake of argument, let's say you were right about this. My argument still stands. Whether he physically saw or was made spiritually aware of them, why would he say that he saw their souls instead of saying he saw their spiritual bodies? Again, it doesn't say he saw the souls who were slain, it says he saw the souls OF THEM that were slain. That clearly implies that he saw a part OF THEM that he called their souls. Paul also taught that the soul is a part of a person along with the body and spirit in 1 Thess 5:23.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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It's not egotistical or boastful or arrogant to claim to have the truth...when you indeed have it.
Well, you don't have it, but even if you did, it can be boastful to claim to have the truth the way you did with your supposed truth bomb that ended up being a total dud.

Open your eyes to see Paul equates being "clothed upon" with an immortal body with "life" - understand?
LOL. You mean the same Paul who taught that a person is made up of a body, soul and spirit (1 Thess 5:23)? That Paul?

"..BUT CLOTHED UPON, THAT MORTALITY MIGHT BE SWALLOWED UP OF LIFE."

Get it? Paul is saying we don't have "life" unless we're "clothed upon" with an immortal body.
We don't have BODILY immortality until then. It doesn't mean our soul doesn't have immortality until then. Get it? Is 2 Cor 5:6-8 in your Bible or not?

2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight: ) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Notice that Paul says being in our body equates to being absent from the Lord. That alone disproves your false belief that we must be in a body to be present with the Lord. But, then Paul confirms that we can be present with the Lord apart from the body by explicitly saying that he would rather be absent from the body and to instead be present with the Lord. How you can conclude that one can only be present with the Lord with a body despite what Paul said there is beyond me. It makes no sense and blatantly contradicts what Paul said there.

Friend, I don't need you help to make my points, but gracias. Notice the "adoption" ceremony takes place at "the redemption of our body" - is that at death?

It's "at the last trump".
Buddy ol' pal, I don't need you to help make my points, either. I never said that the redemption of our body takes place at any time except for at the last trump.

You still don't get it. Paul equates "life" with being "clothed upon" - not being naked and unclothed.
He equates BODILY life with that. But, he also said to be ABSENT from the body is to be PRESENT with the Lord. Why do you ignore that? He clearly indicated that he expected to depart from his body and be ABSENT from it and then to be PRESENT with the Lord which is why he said while we're at home in the body we are ABSENT from the Lord. Understand? Probably not since you have already proven you have no understanding of 2 Cor 5:6-8 whatsoever which is why you never talk about it.

Another gross hermeneutical violation: building doctrines buy appealing to figurative, uninterpreted prophetic passages.
LOL. I don't need to follow your fallible man-made rules.

Nah, I clearly show the monumental contradictions which arise from making the passage literal.
Did you really? I don't think so. That's another one of your imagined truth bombs that didn't go off and ended up being a dud.

Who's shown to have consciousness in death?
LOL. You mean besides Lazarus, Abraham, the rich man with five brothers, Moses, Elijah and the dead in Christ whose souls John saw in heaven?

Resurrected Moses was there with Jesus.
Show me the scripture which teaches that Moses was resurrected with an immortal body. Good luck. And tell me how that can be possible when it says that Jesus was the first to rise from the dead (Acts 26:23). He wasn't the first to be resurrected from the dead in an sense since Lazarus and others had been resurrected before him and later died again, so the context is obviously that he was the first to be resurrected unto bodily immortality. In what other way was He the first to rise from the dead? There's no other way. It's ludicrous to think that anyone before Him was resurrected unto bodily immortality because it's His resurrection unto bodily immortality that was necessary to make it so that those who are His can also be resurrected unto bodily immortality in the future. And Moses is one of His since all believers from all-time belong to Him. Moses is still awaiting His bodily resurrection unto bodily immortality along with the rest of the dead in Christ.

I've proved to you once and for all that "life" after death comes only by being "clothed upon" - not naked.
You've proved to me that you are lacking in discernment and don't want to deal with what Paul taught in 2 Cor 5:6-8.

Yes, Scripture gives no inkling of that, right?
Wrong.

"The living know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything".
How many times do I have to cover this? They know not anything "UNDER THE SUN". Does context mean anything to you at all? That is referring to the fact that they will never live "under the sun", which refers to their lives on earth, ever again. It says NOTHING about whether they have consciousness or not when they are no longer living under the sun (on the earth).

You have stubbornly chosen to cling to your false doctrine and there's obviously nothing I can do about it. We have gone back and forth on this too many times at this point. We have repeated some of the same things many times. I have no interest in repeating myself to you any longer about this topic. You rely entirely on the teachings of fallible men for understanding and you've made that clear. You attach yourself to a denomination that also has other false teachings like it's ridiculous interpretation of Revelation 20 which makes the thousand years completely pointless, and it's ridiculous requirement for Gentiles to be under the law of Moses by observing the Sabbath on Saturday and thinking that not doing that has something to do with the mark of the beast (LOL!) and so on. If you want to follow after the false teachings of that denomination instead of the truth taught in scripture, that's your choice. But, it's a bad one.
 
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rwb

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Exactly, the word "soul" indicates "human being" or "life" - not a disembodied ghost. The Bible says all creatures have "life" - does that mean they have "disembodied souls"?

BTW, Jesus' spirit went up but His soul went down.

To be a physical living creature upon the earth there must be the breath of life that is spirit. Because it is the spirit (breath of life) that gives physical life to our mortal body, and it is the Holy Spirit that gives believers the eternal breath of life (spirit). The physically dead do not become disembodied souls they become corpses. Again, the word 'soul' indicates the presence of life. That life is found in both mortal bodies until death, and also found in eternal spirits for all who physically die in faith.

Jesus' spirit indeed go up, but only His physical body went into the grave. Before His spirit ascended up, through His spirit He first went down to set the captives free.
That's a popular but erroneous interpretation. Jesus "preached to the spirits in prison" refers to the God's spirit striving with the Antediluvians who were in the "prison house of sin" through the preaching of Noah. The context makes this plain.

It was through His spirit that He preached to the spirits in prison. It could be a depiction of Noah preaching to living souls through the Spirit before the flood. When we look for understanding through Christ first descending into the lower parts of the earth to set free the captives before spiritually ascending to heaven, I'm inclined to believe that Christ preached the Gospel to those He went to set free. This would be the best of "good news" to those whose faith sometimes waivered, and being sometimes disobedient is the reason the waters of the flood carried them all away. Their disobedience took their mortal body, but apparently did not take away their eternal spirit. For that is what returns with Christ when He comes again.

1 Peter 3:18-19 (KJV) For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1 Peter 3:20 (KJV)
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-14 (KJV) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Paul equates "life" with "clothed upon" in an immortal body

No he doesn't! Paul was assured he would be spiritually alive after physical death, which is why he was anxious to be absent from his body and to be present with the Lord in heaven.
Yes, "at the last trump".

We aren't raised a spiritual body when our mortal body is resurrected. We are physically resurrected immortal and incorruptible and made physically alive again through our spiritual body that returns with Christ. Because only when we have both physical body + the breath of life (spirit) can we be called COMPLETE living souls, fit for everlasting life on the new earth..
Christ also taught the same lesson, saying "...though he were dead, yet shall he live."

What harmonizes the two?

The phrase "never die" refers to the Second Death which no righteous one will ever die.

And Lazarus did live again physically when Christ called him back to mortal, physical life in the same body he died in. The statement "shall never die" is speaking of those who have His life-giving Spirit within. They NEVER die because the life we have through Christ in us is eternal (never ending). Even though our body, like Lazarus shall die our spirit through the power of Christ's Spirit within is alive (spiritual soul) forevermore.
"Lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death".
"Our friend Lazarus sleepeth".

You are preoccupied with mortal physical bodies, seemingly without understanding the Kingdom of God is spiritual, not physical. You pick out verse after verse that references our mortal body destined to die. But you appear oblivious to what it means to have everlasting life through the Spirit of Christ within our spirit. Doubt not, believe in Christ for He gives eternal life to whosoever believes.
Since the Soul comes into existence as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life, the Soul cannot continue to exist at the disunion of the two any more than a light bulb can continue to emit light when the current is removed.

Again, you show understanding only of that which you can see, that which is physical. Soul is what all creatures with the breath of life are called. Why would Christ assure us the life we receive through Him is eternal if death of our mortal body also takes away our eternal spirit? How can faithful saints have eternal life if physical death, even if only temporary, leaves us without conscientiousness? That is not how Christ in His Word defines ETERNAL/FOREVER/NEVER ENDING life.

1 Corinthians 15:19 (KJV) If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
 

rwb

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Any scholar will tell us we can't base a doctrine on uninterpreted, symbolic passages in Revelation, which you can find everywhere online.

They may be scholars but that does not give them understanding of Scripture. If they don't know what it means to have eternal life, don't know how they can be called biblical scholars?
Yes, the spirit is eternal, but the soul is not. Genesis 2:7 KJV says it exists only as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life. :)

The spirit of saints is eternal because there is life after physical death which is called a living soul.

Yes God breathed the breath of life into the body of dust and Adam became a living soul. The spirit can continue to be living soul without the body, but the body cannot be a living soul without spirit. You're consumed with the outer man of flesh, and I'm trying to get you to understand how in Christ we have eternal spiritual life. Not all spirits are eternal, only those indwelt with the Spirit of Christ.
 

rwb

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I totally disagree, but for the sake of argument, let's say you were right about this. My argument still stands. Whether he physically saw or was made spiritually aware of them, why would he say that he saw their souls instead of saying he saw their spiritual bodies? Again, it doesn't say he saw the souls who were slain, it says he saw the souls OF THEM that were slain. That clearly implies that he saw a part OF THEM that he called their souls. Paul also taught that the soul is a part of a person along with the body and spirit in 1 Thess 5:23.

Perhaps it's because spirits without flesh and bone are unseen? John either supernaturally saw or was given to understand that for those who physically die in Christ there is still life. Only our body is dead, but we as spiritual body, living souls are alive in heaven after our body dies.

Luke 24:39 (KJV) Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
 

Timtofly

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Those who've never existed are better off than those who've died...which makes zero sense if the dead go straight to heaven and are now enjoying an eternity of joy and bliss, right or wrong?
Nothing about the redeemed dead in the OT applies to the redeemed post the Death, Burial, and Resurrection of Jesus.

Those born from above would never taste death, walk through the valley of the shadow of death, nor exist as a soul without a body.

There are not any souls who never existed.

You are so stuck in the past, Jesuit Preterist would be proud of you.

There is no Scripture that claims a soul ceases to exist. That would be like saying when Jesus died on the Cross, God ceased to exist, because the physical body of Jesus was dead, and the spirit left the body, so God as the eternal image of the soul, ceased to exist for 3 days and 3 nights, without a body and the Spirit. Then somehow the spirit joined the body, and God popped back into existence.

The term immortal means life or the opposite of death. You wrongly emphasize some physical part of existence is included in that term. There is no such thing as an immortal body. Not found any where in Scripture. You are as as wrong as most human theology.

One is either alive or dead. You have a dead body. That is why it is called mortal. You are separated from your spirit, and spiritually dead, with only the Holy Spirit as a replacement. Adam physically and spiritually died, and all that was left was a soul in a dead body.

To describe what happened any other way is misinterpreting Scripture, and contradicting even the OT verses you have quoted. The dead do not know anything in sheol, not because they do not exist, but because there is no connection with life on the earth. God has forbidden such a connection, and any connection is fraught with human imagination.

Of course spirits can move freely even in sheol, but they are deceived and deceivers of false information. Most people are just as clueless here on earth and know nothing as well.

People who throw around that word "eternity" do not know anything either. Everlasting and eternal are one concept. Eternity is a totally different concept. Eternity has no beginning and no end, and only God can exist in eternity. The NHNE is not eternity. They have a defined beginning. They include time and a physical reference. They may never end, but you don't know that, as much as you claim those, who allegedly don't exist, know nothing. Compared to God, you know nothing, especially about eternity. No created being can enjoy an eternity of anything, because they had a beginning, and cannot even exist in eternity.

I would point out that Elijah is more likely than not, Enoch who has returned to earth after enjoying a physical experience in Paradise. No one saw him arrive, but Elisha saw him leave. Moses was translated on Mount Sinai, and could have lived a long life and left like Elijah in a chariot of fire, but he disobeyed God, and was banned from even the Promised land of Israel. No one was a witness to his physical death, and the body did not return to dust in the wilderness, because he was translated 40 years prior. Moses wrote that he died, and told them not to look for his body. Satan did not get his body either.

All the rest of the OT waited as souls in a location that Jesus called Abraham's bosom. You can argue over that point, but Luke wrote that is what Jesus literally said. You cannot call that place Paradise, because Paradise was already in heaven with the tree of life since God removed both from the earth, whenever. There is no Scripture that states Paradise was moved at the Cross.

Souls do not cease to exist. And the thief had God's permanent incorruptible physical body immediately upon his soul leaving one physical body for the other. Only 2 people have been translated to not experience death to date. Except perhaps John. But don't you interpret the rapture as being translated so no one experiences death? Or do you think all will physically die, and then cease to exist, and then pop into existence with a different body? Paul did not use the word translated but the word changed. Don't you think they are the same thing?

We all (the entire church) will have been changed. That is looking back at the last 2 millennia. Paul was looking forward to those same millennia. That change happens at physical death, which is not tasting death, per the Cross, but experiencing everlasting life.

You may not be deceived by Satan's words "you surely won't die", but you have not accepted the words of Jesus saying "you won't taste death". If you claim you will be among "the dead" who know nothing, you are denying your second birth from above. You literally already know nothing.