When was the A.O.D fulfilled?

[WPM]

There's so much error here, like the mosquito at the nudist colony, I'm not sure where to begin ;)

If we make this passage literal, that introduces many Bible contradictions.

The "comforted" are the church who have the Comforter. The "tormented" are the Jews upon whom "wrath has come upon upon them to the uttermost".

Correct, which proves it's not a literal passage, but a parable: The only two kinds of bodies the Bible knows about are the mortal "earthly house" and the resurrection "building of God".

These dead guys are clearly post mortem but are not yet resurrected, yet they have eyes, tongues, fingers, bosoms, legs to carry a warning, etc., which only makes sense if it's a parable, in which things happen that cannot and do not happen in real experience.

Ancient texts had zero punctuation. The comma can go before or after "today". Now, the Septuagint has "today" modified by the verb it precedes only 50 times, but by the verb it follows 170 times! So, the majority use of the word suggests the comma should go after "today":

"I say unto you today, shalt thou be with Me..."

The Immortal Soul crowd shouldn't point to neutral texts as "proof" for their ideas that simply isn't there.

Yes, the Spirit returned to God, the Body to dust, and the soul "Stephen" went to "sleep" aka "passed out of existence" until the resurrection where he'll come back into existence.

In verses 2-4, Paul says Christians groan for relief from life's burdens, but "not for that we would be unclothed". So, the relief they want isn't by becoming "naked" and "unclothed" but "clothed upon".

What does this mean?

True Christian scholars who don't cowardly run past inconvenient texts will unavoidably conclude that "naked" and "unclothed" can mean only one thing: resting in peace naked and unclothed without a body in the grave awaiting the resurrection.

Verse 8 is simply Paul saying he prefers to be absent from the burdens of this mortal body - skip lying in the grave RIP without a body - and just going on to be with the Lord - not naked - but in his resurrection body, which he knew didn't happen at death, but at "the last trump".

Again, Paul knew "be with Christ" happens not at death, but "at the last trump" and since "the dead lie there accounting neither days nor years, but when they have awaked, they shall have seemed to have slept scarce one minute" (Martin Luther) - then yes, it will seem to anyone who wakes up to be with Christ coming in the clouds that they departed only moments before.

Paul's not saying "we live together with Jesus while we're dead".

He's saying: Jesus died, so that, whether we're alive and remain or sleeping in the grave at His coming, we should have the opportunity to live with Him as resurrected saints.

They're "naked" and "unclothed" without a body RIP in the grave awaiting resurrection, which Paul knew would happen to him despite his desire to be absent from the body, skip that, and be present with Jesus.

Some say they're among "many of the bodies of the saints which slept" while variant readings suggest beings from unfallen worlds, but they're definitely not "disembodied souls" of dead saints.

These are saints Jesus came and resurrected at the Second Coming.

These, again, are the saints that Jesus resurrected at the Second Coming.

This symbolic passage in the most symbolic book is symbolic for the divine justice crying out to be done on behalf of martyred saints.

Look, if you guys refuse to believe the truth that souls cease to exist at death, then at least acknowledge "disembodied souls" can't cry out because - being "disembodied" - they don't have vocal cords.

Since "judgment must being at the house of God" which is the church, the Pre-Advent Judgment deals first with those who were deemed "heretics" and put to death to determine if they were indeed guilty, and "white robes" is symbolic of these "heretics" being found sincere followers of Jesus.

Also Pre-Advent.

Everyone knows Revelation isn't in chronological order because - unlike here in the West - the Hebrew mindset puts a story's climax in the middle, then continues, often with subsequent details rhymed thematically with preceding details in a "chiasmus" or "X" literary device style. So, verse 1 starts the revelation about the plagues, verses 2-4 are the climax, and verse 5 picks up the story and continues with subsequent details.

There is no "intra-Advent". Jesus comes, takes the saints home to New Jerusalem for 1,000 years to judge wicked men and angels and leaves behind a destroyed, desolate Earth, then New Jerusalem comes down as the wicked resurrect to judgment and are found guilty and cast into the LOF, after which Jesus remakes the heaven and Earth.

This is after the Second Coming/First Resurrection.

My last post refutes all this. I refer you back to it.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Once again, you side with catholicism's "truth" and oppose Protestantism, just like a good Jesuit.

LOL. Total nonsense. Did you forget that I'm neither a preterist nor a futurist? You said yourself that there are Jesuit futurists and Jesuit preterists. I am neither. Your lies do nothing but reveal that you are a liar. There are other beliefs besides Catholicism and Protestantism just as there are other beliefs besides futurism and preterism. To act as if the truth can't be found outside of the man-made belief systems of Catholicism and Protestantism is just as ridiculous as someone trying to say that the truth can't be found outside of futurism or preterism.

No, the words of Jesus calling God the God of the living are not there to prove the dead are already in heaven, they're there to prove the resurrection. Those who say the opposite "stealeth Christ's argument wherewith He proveth the resurrection."

THOU SHALT NOT STEAL.

Jesus said that to the Saduccees who not only didn't believe in the resurrection of the dead, but also, like you, didn't believe that people had any consciousness at all after physical death. They, and you, are wrong! Jesus proved them wrong by saying that God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob because He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

In your doctrine, God is not currently the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob because you foolishly say they are not alive in any way. But, He IS their God right now because they are alive spiritually! Jesus refuted that belief of the Saduccees and also refuted their belief that there is no resurrection in the process because if they are still alive now, as Jesus indicated they are, then there's no reason to think they won't ever be bodily resurrected. They did not cease to exist upon physical death as the Saduccees believed and Jesus refuted that and refuted their belief that there won't be a resurrection at the same time.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In the thread “Why are some interpreters not being honest with the text involving Daniel 9:27?” Post #568 you said “You need to read the New Testament. It repeatedly shows how Gentile believers were included in the covenants that God made with Israel.”

Here is the quote below …




Now it appears you are arguing that Gentiles were excluded. Which is it? Did your position on this change?

No, of course my position didn't change. You are just not understanding what I'm saying. All I'm saying is simply that in OT times the Gentiles were excluded, but are included in NT times. What is hard to understand about this? I'm basically just saying what Paul said in Ephesians 2:11-22. Do you understand what he said there?

Ephesians 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility....19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

So, Gentiles in Old Testament times were formerly "excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world", but NOW "are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household". I don't know how much more clear it can be. Gentiles were once not the people of God, but not they are the people of God together with Jewish believers in the church. Very simple. The description of the people Peter was writing to in 1 Peter matches the description of the people Paul wrote about in Ephesians 2 and 3, which were Jew and Gentile believers in the church.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Words mean things. It doesn't say "Stephen" went to heaven.

So, you think Jesus rejected Stephen's request to receive his spirit then?

It's YOU who doesn't understand what happens when people die!

Wrong. I have destroyed your false doctrine of soul sleep and you won't acknowledge it. It is based on false intepretations of scripture. Your treatment of Luke 16:19-31 in particular is nothing more than a joke.

You're own words indicate you don't understand the difference between a "soul" and "spirit" - allow me to educate you:

According to Genesis 2:7 KJV, the Soul comes into existence as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath (Spirit) of Life. At death, the Body returns to dust, the Spirit to God, and the Soul goes out of existence aka "sleep the sleep of death" until the Resurrection of the Just or Resurrection of the Damned where damned Souls are doomed to die the Second Death which is permanent death, everlasting death, eternal death...a death from which there will be no resurrection.

You refuse to acknowledge that people have a soul, a spirit and a body as scripture teaches! You are blinded by Seventh Day Adventist false doctrine.

1 Thess 5:23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

When we talked about this verse before your interpretation of it was nothing less than completely embarrassing. You gave a ridiculous analogy to give your understanding of it which was a complete joke. I'm going to side with Paul and believe that human beings consist of a spirit, a soul and a body. I will not give any credibility to your nonsense.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The spirit of God in Stephen is simply his last breath and does not belong to him, but to God who gave it, on loan (Act. 17:25; Pro. 22:7).

Job_27:3 All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;​

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Ecc_8:8 There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death: and there is no discharge in that war; neither shall wickedness deliver those that are given to it.​

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Ecc_12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.​

It is not alive, conscious, or anything like that.

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Psa_146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.​

Job 14:10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?​

Job 14:11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:​

Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.​

Job 14:13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!​

Job 14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.​

Job 14:15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.​

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Job_20:11 His bones are full of the sin of his youth, which shall lie down with him in the dust.​

Regardless of whether or not the spirit of a person has consciousness in heaven, scripture is clear that a person's soul does have consciousness there.

Revelation 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

Do you believe that God is currently the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? If so, then you would need to acknowledge that they are currently alive because God is not the God of the dead, but of the living (Matt 22:32). Were Moses and Elijah unconscious and just talking in their sleep when they were talking to Jesus at His transfiguration?

 

[WPM]

Once again, you side with catholicism's "truth" and oppose Protestantism, just like a good Jesuit.

No, the words of Jesus calling God the God of the living are not there to prove the dead are already in heaven, they're there to prove the resurrection. Those who say the opposite "stealeth Christ's argument wherewith He proveth the resurrection."

THOU SHALT NOT STEAL.

Do you have a soul and a spirit?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

If we make this passage literal, that introduces many Bible contradictions.

Your reasoning seems to be that if a passage contains any figurative language, then it is a parable. Which is absolutely ridiculous! The Bible would contain hundreds (thousands?) of parables in that case. Real people and places are mentioned in Luke 16:19-31. It is absolutely not a parable. Just because the torment of the rich man is described figuratively doesn't mean he wasn't in a real place called hell/hades. And the fact that a specific detail like the rich man having five brothers is included also shows that it is not a parable. A parable would not include a detail such as that as it would not add any meaning to it at all. Jesus very clearly indicated that Lazarus and the rich man were real people just as the other people mentioned there are (Abraham and Moses).

 

[grafted branch]

All I'm saying is simply that in OT times the Gentiles were excluded, but are included in NT times. What is hard to understand about this?

That’s not hard to understand, Gentiles were excluded when they didn’t participate with the old covenant requirements, and included when they did participate.

Gentiles were once not the people of God, but not they are the people of God together with Jewish believers in the church. Very simple.

You are arguing against yourself, that was not your position on May 31, 2024 when you said “You need to read the New Testament. It repeatedly shows how Gentile believers were included in the covenants that God made with Israel.”



I’m done with you on this topic, you are clearly flip flopping in order to try to support a view that doesn’t corroborate with all the scriptures on this topic.

 

[WPM]

Your reasoning seems to be that if a passage contains any figurative language, then it is a parable. Which is absolutely ridiculous! The Bible would contain hundreds (thousands?) of parables in that case. Real people and places are mentioned in Luke 16:19-31. It is absolutely not a parable. Just because the torment of the rich man is described figuratively doesn't mean he wasn't in a real place called hell/hades. And the fact that a specific detail like the rich man having five brothers is included also shows that it is not a parable. A parable would not include a detail such as that as it would not add any meaning to it at all. Jesus very clearly indicated that Lazarus and the rich man were real people just as the other people mentioned there are (Abraham and Moses).

He has to argue that. It makes the Bible a mystical book with no real reality. Nothing can be taken serious.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That’s not hard to understand, Gentiles were excluded when they didn’t participate with the old covenant requirements, and included when they did participate.

Yep. That's all I'm saying. They formerly were not the people of God in Old Testament times and then they were in New Testament times. Very simple.

You are arguing against yourself, that was not your position on May 31, 2024 when you said “You need to read the New Testament. It repeatedly shows how Gentile believers were included in the covenants that God made with Israel.”

You are not understanding what I'm saying which is not my fault. I'm saying that it was a mystery in Old Testament times that Gentiles were included in the covenants God made with Israel, but that mystery is revealed in New Testament times that Gentiles are fellow citizens and fellow heirs with Israelite believers of God's promises. I never said otherwise. You are judging me just because you didn't understand what I was saying. That isn't fair to me.

I’m done with you on this topic, you are clearly flip flopping in order to try to support a view that doesn’t corroborate with all the scriptures on this topic.

I'm not flip flopping at all. That is a lie. I've never changed my view. It's not fair to me for you to just dismiss what I'm saying just because you're not understanding what I'm saying. Why don't you act like an adult and give me a chance to explain instead of running away like a child?

You are just not understanding what I'm saying, and what I've always said, which is simply that the Gentiles were not God's people in Old Testament times but now they are in New Testament times together in one body with Israelite believers. Just as Paul wrote about in Ephesians 2:11-3:6. I've never said otherwise. It looks like you're trying to find a way out of the discussion because you know you are mistaken and don't want to admit it.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Sin is the mark of the man/beast, and the name is Death. This speaks to the sin nature of the natural man who is carnally minded.

Jeremiah 2:22
For though thou wash thee with nitre, and take thee much soap, yet thine iniquity is marked before me, saith the Lord God.

Romans 8:6
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

The carnally minded are sold under sin.

So have you ever in your life sinned and taken this mark you say is the mark of th ebeast by committing an act of sin?

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

So have you ever in your life sinned and taken this mark you say is the mark of th ebeast by committing an act of sin?

All men have sinned, but when you are born again of the Spirit your sins are forgiven and you are also made free from sin by the power of Christ.

1 John 5:18
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of Godkeepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

All men have sinned, but when you are born again of the Spirit your sins are forgiven and you are also made free from sin by the power of Christ.

1 John 5:18
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of Godkeepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

So are you declaring you now have lived a perfectly free sinless life since you were born again?

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

So are you declaring you now have lived a perfectly free sinless life since you were born again?

It doesn’t matter what you or I declare to be true in our lives, because it cannot make the words of God to be untrue.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

It doesn’t matter what you or I declare to be true in our lives, because it cannot make the words of God to be untrue.

Then why don't you answer the question. Have you lived a sinless life since you have been born again or have you taken what you call the mark of the beast by committing a sin?

Remember what God said about anyone who takes this mark:

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

 

[Phoneman777]

My last post refutes all this. I refer you back to it.

Which post would that be?

 

[WPM]

Which post would that be?

The post you fudged around.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

first think you have to do is look at the difference between a destruction of a temple. and an Abomination which causes the temple to be desolate.

You said: first think…The difference between “a destruction of a temple” and “an abomination which causes the temple to be desolate”…

? Luke 13:35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, You shall not see me, until the time come when you shall say, Blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord.

how does every eye shall see Him …it’s presented that because of computer capabilities (I don’t know if you said this but I’ve heard because of computers now every eye can see him) …yet He said you shall not see me until you say “blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord.” Does that mean …there must be computers with capabilities to see him …or… you must say blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord? Which is necessary in every eye shall see him, I wonder?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The post you fudged around.

LOL. As if he doesn't know which post he avoided. You even said it was your "last post". How hard is it for him to just look at your last post to him to see which one you were talking about? LOL. The dishonesty of so many people on here is truly unbelievable.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

3 books he said not one stone will be left standing

Did jesus mislead us?

Not one stone left standing upon another. …They showed Him the buildings of the temple and how great they were. He also saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it…but to make it literal …then we should be looking for cursed fig trees that do not bear …letting no fruit grow on them hereforth… how could He stand looking at a fig tree and speak as it happens to the tree but teach something significant …then also stand seeing the temple and speak of the stones coming down? It has to be literal we say..
Matthew 21:19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.

Not one stone will be left standing upon another …but every stone cast down. could mean
Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sins, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

What of living stones ???