When was the A.O.D fulfilled?
- Thread starter Stewardofthemystery
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Of course they are the same events, same time period. In Mathew 24 verse 21 Jesus made it 100% undeniably crystal clear that this time of trouble can't be matched nor surpassed, that it will be the greatest time of trouble this world has ever seen since the beginning of the world to this time--no, nor ever shall be. Apparently, some interpreters don't fully comprehend what this means---no, nor ever shall be.
Because if they did they would not be proposing utter nonsense, then expecting some of the rest of us to buy it, by insisting Matthew 24:21 is pertaining to something local but that Daniel 12:1 is pertaining to something global, as if the former can somehow be greater in scale than the latter. That is backwards, as backwards as it gets. Something local can never ever equal nor surpass in greatness something global. That's like saying a local flood is greater in scale than a global flood, lol.
Since something local cannot possibly be greater in scale than something global, Matthew 24:21, therefore, can't be involving something local, it must be involving something global, it must be involving what Daniel 12:1 is involving. And since Daniel 12:1 is not remotely involving 70 AD, neither is Matthew 24:21.
And the mistake some futurists are making as well, is this. Even though they are applying Daniel 12:1 to the future, they are applying it locally rather than globally, mainly meaning Pretribbers with their rebuilt temple in Jerusalem nonsense . And some of these same futurists are doing the same with Matthew 24:21. Though, they are applying that to the future, they are applying it locally not globally, once again, mainly meaning Pretribbers with their rebuilt temple in Jerusalem nonsense.
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The only thing you have correct is that Daniel 12:1 is meaning globally. Why do you only want to be partially correct here rather than entirely correct? If you are insisting you are correct don't you even fathom the utter nonsense this is implying here, that this means something local can be greater in scale that something global? That's exactly what your interpretation implies.
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The Roman armies stood in the holy city of Jerusalem.
The Judaean Christians recognized them from Jesus' warnings.
You don't.
Has it ever crossed your mind that maybe a singular abomination can lead to plural abominations? IOW, because of this singular abomination it gradually results in numerous abominations.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
LOL. Great argument, David. Very impressive exegesis. Show me again where Matthew 24:15-21 indicates a global tribulation? Is it the mention of having to flee from JUDEA?
Why do you want to be incorrect about denying that Luke 21:20-24 is a parallel passage to Matthew 24:15-21 and Mark 13:14-19?
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
This is like saying that Jesus coming with the clouds of heaven to the Father in heaven (Daniel 7:13-14) has to be the same event as Jesus coming with the clouds of heaven from heaven towards earth (Matthew 24:30-31) just because they both mention Jesus coming with the clouds of heaven. You need to dig deeper than this, David. You are making assumptions without looking at the entire context of those verses.
We all agree with what it says in terms of each verse describing unprecedented tribulation, but we don't all interpret it the same. What happened in 70 AD was unprecedented in any place on earth before or since. It was the complete destruction of the entire city of Jerusalem by the Roman armies. They burned the city and its temple buildings down and left no stone upon another, just as Jesus said they would (Luke 19:41-44). No other city had ever been completely destroyed and burned down in that way before or since.
The global tribulation referenced in Daniel 12:1, however, will be unprecedented in a different way. While God has destroyed certain places on earth with fire before (Sodom and Gomorrah), He has never destroyed the entire earth with fire before as He will when Jesus returns (2 Peter 3:10-13).
What is beyond utter nonsense is your claim that Jesus's answer to the question about the destruction of the temple buildings is not recorded in Matthew 24 or Matthew 13. It's hard to find a case of more extreme doctrinal bias than that.
So, you think the context of both verses is in terms of the scale of each. The amount of destruction that occurs? Tell me, how can any future tribulation exceed the scale of the flood in Noah's day that killed all but 8 people on the earth? That's impossible. So, you are clearly missing the context of those verses.
You are thinking about this in entirely the wrong way. You are talking in terms of an event that would cause more global destruction than any before. But, again, how can anything surpass what happened in the flood of Noah's day. lol, indeed
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
I know we are disagreeing about a few other things right now, but we are completely on the same page on this. I don't know how anyone can't see this. Do they think that after just having told the disciples that the physical temple buildings standing at that time would be destroyed, they wouldn't have asked any questions about that? Clearly, they did. So, at least part of the Olivet Discourse must be about that. How can anyone deny something so obvious as that?
What some do to try to get around this is that they acknowledge that Jesus talks about both the destruction of the temple and His future coming in Luke 21, but try to say that only His answer to the question about His coming and the end of the age is recorded in Matthew 24 and Mark 13. If that was the case, why don't both Matthew 24 and Mark 13 only record the question about His coming and the end of the age while leaving out the first question? But, they don't. The first question is there. So, to think that His answer to that question isn't recorded anywhere in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 is completely ridiculous.
Common sense alone undeniably says something local cannot equal nor surpass in greatness something global. Let's just throw common sense out the window altogether per this one.
Your nonsense--Matthew 24:21 is a local event. And that a global event cannot equal nor surpass a local event, since you have Daniel 12:1 meaning a global event and have Matthew 24:21 meaning a local event and that Jesus plainly, clearly, undeniably indicated that Matthew 24:21 cannot be equaled nor surpassed ever, in greatness and in scale.
Per your interpretation Matthew 24:21 would be likened to a local flood, Daniel 12:1 likened to a global flood, where the local flood is greater in scale than the global flood lol, since Jesus said Matthew 24:21 can't be equaled nor surpassed in greatness and in scale, ever, end of story. Use some common sense if nothing else.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
May I ask where you get your information?
I am a futurist
I lean pre-trib (but am not a stauch do or dier that that is what will happen)
yet I believe it is global. not local. in fact. I know of no one who believes as I do that thinks ot is local. so can you epxlain?
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Actually I do.. Luke 21 has that warning
once agian, Your a troll. You have absolutely nothing to prove I am wrong. your just trolling me, and when you do say something you think I believe, you get it wrong.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Jesus said in matt 24 that it will be greater than anything before or after.
Now lets say 70AD was something greater than before.. does that prove Matt 24 is fulfilled in 70AD?
No we need to go to after
WW1 and WW2 both made 70 AD look like a picnic.. so 70 AD does not fir the description
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
good bye, when you actually have something, Come talk to me, or have someone send for me, because I will no longer see your nonsense
It's simple. The logic would be this. If one is applying Matthew 24:21 to the future involving a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem, and that they also agree that Daniel 12:1 is the same events as Matthew 24:21, the same has to apply to Daniel 12:1. that it's involving a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. That makes it local not global.
Per my view both Matthew 24:21 and Daniel 12:1 are involving 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and what all that involves, for one, and that I don't take 2 Thessalonians 2:4 in the literal sense but that I take it to be involving the church globally, and that it is spiritual in nature. This OTOH then makes it global not local.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Common sense alone undeniably says that nothing in the future can exceed the scale of the flood in Noah's day. So, just throw common sense out the window by claiming that some event in the future will be of a greater scale than anything before including the flood where only 8 people survived.
Your nonsense--some future event will exceed the scale of any past event, including the flood. You can't be any more nonsensical than that.
More of your nonsense--Matthew 24 and Mark 13 are inexplicably missing Jesus's answer to the question the disciples asked regarding the temple buildings being destroyed, as He had just told them shortly before that.
That is your ASSUMPTION that it can't be surpassed "in greatness and in scale", not mine. That results in you having no choice but to believe that this future event will result in even fewer than 8 people surviving. Talk about nonsense! It's not talking about an event greater in scale than any other before, each is talking about an event unlike any other before. You are talking those verses completely out of context because of your doctrinal bias.
Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Tell me where you see any reference to "greatness and scale" here?
Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Tell me where you see any reference to "greatness and scale" here?
It's not there in either verse. In both of them, it's talking about an event unlike any other without specifying exactly how it would be unlike any other. Your dishonest treatment of these verse reveals your doctrinal bias.
You keep blabbing about common sense while not acknowledging your own lack of common sense. If your understanding of what those verses mean was true then a future event would have to exceed the greatness and scale of even the flood in Noah's day that killed all but 8 people. No common sense to be found there.
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