When the saints are overcome

[grafted branch]

OK - Close your eyes and count to ten and then OPEN those blind eyes and SEE

Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Nope, still don’t see what you’re talking about. All I see is that God can kill both body and soul, which is a reason to fear God but we are commanded to not fear anyone else.

Again this verse is not claiming physical death overcomes a Christian, it’s the exact opposite, only death of your soul can overcome a Christian.

 

[David in NJ]

Nope, still don’t see what you’re talking about. All I see is that God can kill both body and soul, which is a reason to fear God but we are commanded to not fear anyone else.

Again this verse is not claiming physical death overcomes a Christian, it’s the exact opposite, only death of your soul can overcome a Christian.

i was hoping you had a lol on that last post

OK - In this life, the saints are overcome by these things spoken of by the LORD that pertain to this earthbound existence

Matt 24:9
Then they will deliver you over to be persecuted and killed, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.

 

[grafted branch]

i was hoping you had a lol on that last post

OK - In this life, the saints are overcome by these things spoken of by the LORD that pertain to this earthbound existence

Matt 24:9
Then they will deliver you over to be persecuted and killed, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.

Ok, I agree that persecution has happened to most all Christians in some way or another and there certainly has been quite a few Christians that have died for their faith. None of this is called being “overcome”. The word “overcome” means to lose, be subdued or defeated in some way.

How can physical death be looked at as being overcome when absent from the body is to be present with the Lord?

 

[grafted branch]

OK - In this life, the saints are overcome by these things spoken of by the LORD that pertain to this earthbound existence

Also, why would persecution that takes place while we are on earth be considered being overcome and not something to rejoice over?

Acts 5:40And to him they agreed: and when they had called the apostles, and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go. 41And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.

 

[David in NJ]

Ok, I agree that persecution has happened to most all Christians in some way or another and there certainly has been quite a few Christians that have died for their faith. None of this is called being “overcome”. The word “overcome” means to lose, be subdued or defeated in some way.

How can physical death be looked at as being overcome when absent from the body is to be present with the Lord?

In Daniel it says the anitchrist will "wear out the saints" = wholesale slaughter will take place

God permits satan to do this because the saints are waiting for the Second Coming whereby we are Resurrected into Immortal Bodies.

On this earth we are overcome by the persecutions of the world and those who serve satan = it is only Temporary

LOOK Here Brother and pay careful attention and you will SEE

To the angel of the church in Smyrna write:

These are the words of the First and the Last, who died and returned to life.

9I know your affliction and your poverty—though you are rich! And I am aware of the slander of those who falsely claim to be Jews, but are in fact a synagogue of Satan.

10Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison to test you, and you will suffer tribulation for ten days. Be faithful even unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.

11He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who overcomes will not be harmed by the second death.

Shalom

 

[grafted branch]

9I know your affliction and your poverty—though you are rich!

The affliction and poverty is being looked at as being rich not being overcome.

The one who overcomes will not be harmed by the second death.

They have to overcome to not be harmed by the second death. It doesn’t seem possible that the church at Smyrna would be overcome while simultaneously they have to overcome in order to not be harmed by the second death.

 

[ewq1938]

Christians have been killed and persecuted ever since they were first called Christians but I don’t consider any of them as being overcome or defeated.

Yet the bible does speak of saints being overcome, and they are NT saints whether you think it happened already or not. It still says satan's beast overcame God's saints. Christians can be overcome by the enemy but only in the sense of being physically killed.


Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Rev 13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
Rev 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.



satan goes to make war against Christians and in that war those same Christians are killed/overcome.

 

[grafted branch]

Yet the bible does speak of saints being overcome, and they are NT saints whether you think it happened already or not. It still says satan's beast overcame God's saints.

I agree, Satan made war and overcame the saints. That is clearly stated but the verses that are being looked at in the symbolic book of Revelation should be interpreted in the light of the epistles and gospels. All the verses in the epistles and gospels that talk about physical persecution and death always refer to it in a positive victorious manner for the NT Christian.

Christians can be overcome by the enemy but only in the sense of being physically killed.

Your claim is unsupported in the scriptures, the opposite of what you’re proposing is true.

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Our war has nothing to do with physical death and the armor we use isn’t physical armor. The only way a NT saint could be overcome is if the helmet of salvation is removed, but that is an impossibility.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The fact that they had the testimony of Jesus Christ doesn’t tell us anything about the timing of this verse. The testimony of Jesus started in the book of Genesis and as John 5:46 says For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword.

Since only those who kill with the sword will be killed with the sword, and you have this as being killed physically, who exactly are the Christians in the future supposed to be killing? Should Christians stock up on literal, physical weapons to prepare for this? Who’s going to point out the people that the Christians should start killing, our pastors?

 

[David in NJ]

The affliction and poverty is being looked at as being rich not being overcome.


They have to overcome to not be harmed by the second death. It doesn’t seem possible that the church at Smyrna would be overcome while simultaneously they have to overcome in order to not be harmed by the second death.

You are getting closer to SEEING.

Principal #1 - to be overcome on earth, in earthbound things, does NOT equate to being overcome in Faith/Truth/Salvation

Principal #2 - When we are overcome by the elements of this earthbound existence and remain in The Faith, then we are
validated by the LORD as "Overcomers in CHRIST"

Principal #3 - JESUS Christ is the WAY for us to follow = HE is The Overcomer = John 16:33

"I have told you these things so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation.
But take courage; I have overcome the world!”

 

[grafted branch]

You are getting closer to SEEING.

Principal #1 - to be overcome on earth, in earthbound things, does NOT equate to being overcome in Faith/Truth/Salvation

Principal #2 - When we are overcome by the elements of this earthbound existence and remain in The Faith, then we are
validated by the LORD as "Overcomers in CHRIST"

Principal #3 - JESUS Christ is the WAY for us to follow = HE is The Overcomer = John 16:33

"I have told you these things so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation.
But take courage; I have overcome the world!”

All excellent points except in point #1 and #2 the assumption is made that a NT saint can be overcome in earth bound things.

What verses did you use to initially come to the conclusion that NT saints can be overcome by earth bound things?

 

[David in NJ]

All excellent points except in point #1 and #2 the assumption is made that a NT saint can be overcome in earth bound things.

What verses did you use to initially come to the conclusion that NT saints can be overcome by earth bound things?

"I have told you these things so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation.
But take courage; I have overcome the world!” - John 16:33

 

[Dan Clarkston]

If so, how can that be when it says the saints will be overcome? The Bible has to be true.

Jesus said the powers of hell shall not prevail against His Church (Matthew 16:18)... so those who are confused about this must also think God contradicts Himself in His Word

Hint: Just because one dies for their faith does not mean they have been overcome in the literal sense... being overcome physically and murdered for your faith is meaningless for true Christians who are graduating from this sin sick dark world to to be in the presence of the Lord.

A Christian getting whacked for their faith is actually a win win situation!

 

[grafted branch]

"I have told you these things so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation.
But take courage; I have overcome the world!” - John 16:33

Right, Jesus had tribulations in this world but we don’t come to the conclusion that He was overcome. In fact He learned obedience, which is exactly how we should look at tribulations. Each trial we endure is an opportunity for us to grow and it becomes a victorious thing. We are more than conquerors.

Hebrews 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

Romans 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

Do you have any verses that show a Christian being overcome by earthly things or events?

 

[grafted branch]

Jesus said the powers of hell shall not prevail against His Church (Matthew 16:18)... so those who are confused about this must also think God contradicts Himself in His Word

Hint: Just because one dies for their faith does not mean they have been overcome in the literal sense... being overcome physically and murdered for your faith is meaningless for true Christians who are graduating from this sin sick dark world to to be in the presence of the Lord.

A Christian getting whacked for their faith is actually a win win situation!

Amen, regardless of how we interpret Revelation, we should never compromise the clear truths taught elsewhere.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Amen, regardless of how we interpret Revelation, we should never compromise the clear truths taught elsewhere.

Exactly... we need to read scripture in light of what the rest of God's Word teaches.

This is how the OSAS peoples got tricked by the devil into following / teaching false OSAS doctrine which is heresy

 

[David in NJ]

Right, Jesus had tribulations in this world but we don’t come to the conclusion that He was overcome. In fact He learned obedience, which is exactly how we should look at tribulations. Each trial we endure is an opportunity for us to grow and it becomes a victorious thing. We are more than conquerors.

Hebrews 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

Romans 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

Do you have any verses that show a Christian being overcome by earthly things or events?

JESUS was overcome on this earth by the Sanhedrin/Pharisees and the World Ruling Power = ROME

JESUS laid down His life to be "overcome" so that thru His Perfect Obedience to the FATHER, JESUS Overcame the World/SIN for us.

 

[grafted branch]

JESUS was overcome on this earth by the Sanhedrin/Pharisees and the World Ruling Power = ROME

JESUS laid down His life to be "overcome" so that thru His Perfect Obedience to the FATHER, JESUS Overcame the World/SIN for us.

Can you supply a verse that says Jesus was defeated, conquered, subdued or lost the victory?

Jesus laid down His life voluntarily, that is not being overcome. If a person voluntarily loses in a game of checkers the opponent didn’t defeat that person, the opponent didn’t get the victory. The person who deliberately lost did that for a reason that was more valuable to them than winning the game thus they weren’t overcome but received a benefit from it.

For example a grandfather lets his grandson win in checkers.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

JESUS was overcome on this earth by the Sanhedrin/Pharisees and the World Ruling Power = ROME

Wrong... Jesus willingly laid His life down.

If His mission would not called Him to go to the Cross... they could never have touched Him and that wicked one would have touched Him not.

John 14:30
the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

1 John 5:18
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

 

[David in NJ]

Can you supply a verse that says Jesus was defeated, conquered, subdued or lost the victory?

Jesus laid down His life voluntarily, that is not being overcome. If a person voluntarily loses in a game of checkers the opponent didn’t defeat that person, the opponent didn’t get the victory. The person who deliberately lost did that for a reason that was more valuable to them than winning the game thus they weren’t overcome but received a benefit from it.

For example a grandfather lets his grandson win in checkers.

JESUS overcame the World by overcoming SIN = this is the definition of being "overcomers" in Christ

Death is a curse and a judgment from God
JESUS allowed His Body to be overcome by the Sanhedrin and Rome = "cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"

Then they came to a place which was named Gethsemane; and He said to His disciples, “Sit here while I pray.” 33And He took Peter, James, and John with Him, and He began to be troubled and deeply distressed. 34Then He said to them, “My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even to death. Stay here and watch.”

35He went a little farther, and fell on the ground, and prayed that if it were possible, the hour might pass from Him. 36And He said, “Abba, Father, all things are possible for You. Take this cup away from Me; nevertheless, not what I will, but what You will.”

JESUS overcame the World by overcoming SIN

 

[David in NJ]

Wrong... Jesus willingly laid His life down.

If His mission would not called Him to go to the Cross... they could never have touched Him and that wicked one would have touched Him not.

John 14:30
the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

1 John 5:18
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

SEE Post 179

There are two distinct realms in which we can be overcome.

This scripture you posted proves this.
John 14:30
the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.