When the saints are overcome

[amigo de christo]

Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

This verse, which relates to the two witnesses, clearly associate being overcome with being physically killed. Surely, it's not talking about the two witnesses being spiritually overcome, right? This is how Revelation 13:7 should be understood as well. It's about physical persecution. You are aware that many Christians have been physically persecuted over the past almost 2,000 years, aren't you?

When folks who love the LORD read their bible things will become clearer and clearer in time .
So now for a trivia question .
WHO IS THE ISRAEL OF GOD .
its so simple my friend . Do remember not all of israel itself is OF ISRAEL .
Paul knew who it was and who it consisted of too . a hint , ALL WHO BELEIVE ON JESUS THE CHRIST .
now to some that might sound like blasphemy . BUT FRIEND IT IS NOT BLASPHEMY
it was foretold , even preached unto abraham . JERUSALEM and its TEMPLE , MOUNT ZION
prepared OF GOD wherein the TEMPLE be GOD and the LAMB , it was foretold .
the very pattern SHOWN to moses , the very pattern shown to even david
WAS SEEN IN THE HEAVENS . FOLKS just dont seem to get it friend . NO ACCESS
in is given unto those who DENY GOD . and by golly if one denies JESUS , THEY DENY GOD .
whether or jew or gentile many will wail on the day OF THE LORD .
FOR MANY JEWS and MANY GENTILES DENY JESUS IS THE CHRIST and THUS DENY GOD WHO SENT HIM .
THERE is a city that cannot be moved wherein NO EVIL can even enter .
The earthen became corrputed from within . BUT THIS CITY AND ITS KING cannot be moved and no leaven
can enter in . folks bedda get in they bible is all i can say . LEARN OF GOD
the TRUTH HE INSPIRED through men and was left to us in the bible . FOR MANY DECIEVERS DO ABOUND
and they so love to teach error .

 

[grafted branch]

Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

This verse, which relates to the two witnesses, clearly associate being overcome with being physically killed. Surely, it's not talking about the two witnesses being spiritually overcome, right? This is how Revelation 13:7 should be understood as well. It's about physical persecution. You are aware that many Christians have been physically persecuted over the past almost 2,000 years, aren't you?

Yes I’m aware that Christians have been persecuted and killed throughout history, but unlike you I see it as a privilege and honor to be persecuted and killed for your faith.

I’ve seen you state in the past that Revelation needs to be interpreted against the clear teachings of the epistles and gospels. What verses are you using that teach persecution and death is to be viewed as being defeated?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes I’m aware that Christians have been persecuted and killed throughout history, but unlike you I see it as a privilege and honor to be persecuted and killed for your faith.

Why are you trying to speak for me? I never said I didn't see that as a privilege and honor.

I’ve seen you state in the past that Revelation needs to be interpreted against the clear teachings of the epistles and gospels. What verses are you using that teach persecution and death is to be viewed as being defeated?

Where did I say anything about it being a case of being defeated? Nowhere. This is a waste of time, obviously, since you seem to be more interested in putting words in my mouth than actually paying attention to what I say.

 

[grafted branch]

Why are you trying to speak for me? I never said I didn't see that as a privilege and honor.


Where did I say anything about it being a case of being defeated? Nowhere. This is a waste of time, obviously, since you seem to be more interested in putting words in my mouth than actually paying attention to what I say.

Just to be clear, and make sure we are on the same page, the word we are looking at is “overcome” <3528>.

nikaó: To conquer, to overcome, to prevail, to gain victory

Original Word: νικάω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: nikaó
Pronunciation: nee-KAH-oh
Phonetic Spelling: (nik-ah'-o)
Definition: To conquer, to overcome, to prevail, to gain victory
Meaning: I conquer, am victorious, overcome, prevail, subdue.

Word Origin: From the Greek noun νίκη (nikē), meaning "victory" or "conquest."

Usage: The verb νικάω (nikaó) is used in the New Testament to describe the act of overcoming or gaining victory, often in a spiritual or moral context. It conveys the idea of triumphing over adversities, challenges, or enemies. This term is frequently associated with the victory of faith, the triumph of Christ over sin and death, and the believer's call to overcome the world through faith in Jesus Christ.



I don’t see the death of a new covenant believer ever being associated with any of the definitions or uses of the word “overcome”. Which definition or usage of <3528> are you associating with the death of a new covenant believer?

This is a waste of time, obviously, since you seem to be more interested in putting words in my mouth than actually paying attention to what I say.

I am paying attention, you seem to be claiming a new covenant believer can be overcome by physical death but haven’t yet stated how that is possible. If you agree it’s an honor and privilege to give one’s life for their faith and believe being “overcome” means physical death then it would appear you would also have to also agree that it’s an honor and privilege to be overcome yet the exact opposite is stated in Romans 12:21. Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Just to be clear, and make sure we are on the same page, the word we are looking at is “overcome” <3528>.

nikaó: To conquer, to overcome, to prevail, to gain victory

Original Word: νικάω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: nikaó
Pronunciation: nee-KAH-oh
Phonetic Spelling: (nik-ah'-o)
Definition: To conquer, to overcome, to prevail, to gain victory
Meaning: I conquer, am victorious, overcome, prevail, subdue.

Word Origin: From the Greek noun νίκη (nikē), meaning "victory" or "conquest."

Usage: The verb νικάω (nikaó) is used in the New Testament to describe the act of overcoming or gaining victory, often in a spiritual or moral context. It conveys the idea of triumphing over adversities, challenges, or enemies. This term is frequently associated with the victory of faith, the triumph of Christ over sin and death, and the believer's call to overcome the world through faith in Jesus Christ.

Yes, I am well aware of that. The context is in relation to being overcome physically. You're making this far more complicated than it is. While the enemy might overcome us physically, that does not result in them overcoming us spiritually.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

I don’t see the death of a new covenant believer ever being associated with any of the definitions or uses of the word “overcome”. Which definition or usage of <3528> are you associating with the death of a new covenant believer?

To conquer or to subdue physically. Do you think there is nothing in scripture related to physical persecution? There clearly is, right? So, why not in the book of Revelation as well? For example, in Revelation 6:9-11 it talks about those who have been physically killed wanting vengeance and they are told to wait until others are killed like they were first.

I am paying attention, you seem to be claiming a new covenant believer can be overcome by physical death but haven’t yet stated how that is possible.

Why is such a simple thing necessary to explain? Can someone not be conquered and subdued physically? Of course they can. I don't understand how you're not getting that.

If you agree it’s an honor and privilege to give one’s life for their faith and believe being “overcome” means physical death then it would appear you would also have to also agree that it’s an honor and privilege to be overcome yet the exact opposite is stated in Romans 12:21. Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

You are not differentiating between being physically overcome and spiritually overcome, so that's why you are confused.

 

[grafted branch]

Yes, I am well aware of that. The context is in relation to being overcome physically. You're making this far more complicated than it is. While the enemy might overcome us physically, that does not result in them overcoming us spiritually.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Right, but new covenant believers can’t be overcome physically. I’m not sure why you quoted Matthew 10:28, it proves my point, we don’t fear physical killing, we fear God because He can kill both body and soul. Being killed for your faith is an honor, we don’t fear that, we are not overcome by that.

To conquer or to subdue physically. Do you think there is nothing in scripture related to physical persecution? There clearly is, right? So, why not in the book of Revelation as well? For example, in Revelation 6:9-11 it talks about those who have been physically killed wanting vengeance and they are told to wait until others are killed like they were first.

Yes, absolutely there is persecution and killing in the Bible but it is never referred to as being overcome for new covenant believers.

The saints that are overcome in Revelation are old covenant believers not new covenant believers. Problems only arise when it’s interpreted as new covenant believers that are overcome.

Why is such a simple thing necessary to explain? Can someone not be conquered and subdued physically? Of course they can. I don't understand how you're not getting that.

Sure, but a new covenant Christian can’t be conquered. An American can be conquered in a battle, a Jew who insists on obtaining physical promises from God can be conquered in a battle, but a new covenant Christian can never be conquered, their citizenship is in heaven.

You are not differentiating between being physically overcome and spiritually overcome, so that's why you are confused.

I’m not confused, a new covenant believer can’t be overcome either physically or spiritually. I can’t find any verses elsewhere in the gospels or epistles that claim persecution or death is a means of overcoming believers.

Why would anyone come to the conclusion that the saints in Revelation, that are overcome, are new covenant saints?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Right, but new covenant believers can’t be overcome physically.

This is obviously a waste of time because you only allow for one definition of the word overcome and you insist that it can only refer to being spiritually overcome. I disagree and see no basis for that belief.

I’m not sure why you quoted Matthew 10:28, it proves my point, we don’t fear physical killing, we fear God because He can kill both body and soul. Being killed for your faith is an honor, we don’t fear that, we are not overcome by that.

You're not understanding anything I'm saying, so I'm not going to waste any more time on this. We can be overcome physically without being overcome spiritually, but you don't seem to understand that. So be it.

Yes, absolutely there is persecution and killing in the Bible but it is never referred to as being overcome for new covenant believers.

In Revelation 11:7 the word is clearly used in relation to physical harm.

The saints that are overcome in Revelation are old covenant believers not new covenant believers.

Nonsense. Revelation is a NT book about the NT time period. We're so far apart on this that it's just not worth my time to say any more about it.

 

[grafted branch]

This is obviously a waste of time because you only allow for one definition of the word overcome and you insist that it can only refer to being spiritually overcome. I disagree and see no basis for that belief.

No, “overcome” can mean either physically or spiritually but as I have been repeating, a Christian can’t be overcome either way, physical or spiritual. You have not yet given any verses that support your view on this.

You're not understanding anything I'm saying, so I'm not going to waste any more time on this. We can be overcome physically without being overcome spiritually, but you don't seem to understand that. So be it.

You have yet to show a verse that states a saint can be overcome by being physically killed. To me it looks like you are claiming something that isn’t taught in the Bible.

Can you show me the verses that say physical death overcomes a believer?

In Revelation 11:7 the word is clearly used in relation to physical harm.

Agreed, but again it’s not referring to new covenant believers. It’s referring to old covenant believers.

Nonsense. Revelation is a NT book about the NT time period. We're so far apart on this that it's just not worth my time to say any more about it.

You are right, we are very far apart. All you have to do is give some verses that say physical death overcomes believers and I can start to see your position but until then it looks like you have no support for claiming it’s NT saints that are overcome.

I can give you a list of verses that show NT saints are not overcome by death if you want.

 

[ewq1938]

Sure, but a new covenant Christian can’t be conquered.

You are wrong. They can be in a certain sense, which is through death. It's not much of a victory, but for a short time it is called being overcome by God in scripture. You are arguing against scripture itself so you lost the debate before it started.

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.


It was given to the beast to be able to overcome the saints by God himself, no different than when he gave satan the same power to overcome Job's family.

 

[grafted branch]

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.


It was given to the beast to be able to overcome the saints by God himself, no different than when he gave satan the same power to overcome Job's family.

That can’t be correct though, in Romans 8:35-39 Paul says we are more than conquerors and that nothing will separate us from the love of God. The Saints being given to the beast was past tense when Paul wrote the book of Romans or else Paul was incorrect. Revelation 13 can’t be future or else it doesn’t agree with the epistles.



Romans 8:35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39Not height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[ewq1938]

That can’t be correct though

So you reject that part of Rev or do you reject the entire book?

 

[grafted branch]

So you reject that part of Rev or do you reject the entire book?

Revelation was written to a Jewish audience and it contains events that happened for them but those events will not happen for us.

For example look at Ephesians 6:21, are we to expect Tychicus to make known all things to us today?

Ephesians 6:21 But that ye also may know my affairs, and how I do, Tychicus, a beloved brother and faithful minister in the Lord, shall make known to you all things:

 

[grafted branch]

So you reject that part of Rev or do you reject the entire book?

So you reject Romans 8:35-39 or do you reject the entire book of Romans?

 

[ewq1938]

So you reject Romans 8:35-39 or do you reject the entire book of Romans?

You are avoiding that you said something in Rev cannot be correct. Christians have been killed/overcome for a long time. Exactly why do you disagree with something everyone except you understands?

 

[ewq1938]

Revelation was written to a Jewish audience

No, it was written to a Christian audience, of any race.

and it contains events that happened for them but those events will not happen for us.

False.

For example look at Ephesians 6:21, are we to expect Tychicus to make known all things to us today?

Ephesians 6:21 But that ye also may know my affairs, and how I do, Tychicus, a beloved brother and faithful minister in the Lord, shall make known to you all things:

That isn't the book of Rev.

 

[grafted branch]

You are avoiding that you said something in Rev cannot be correct.

No, I’m saying something in Revelation would be incorrect if it applies to us today. Revelation is true and correct but somethings apply to old covenant saints, just like the stipulations in the Law don’t apply to us today. I have no issues eating a BLT sandwich because of my understanding of the scriptures.

Christians have been killed/overcome for a long time.

Christians have been killed and persecuted ever since they were first called Christians but I don’t consider any of them as being overcome or defeated. Tell me, was Paul defeated? If not then why would you consider any other Christian defeated that died for their faith?

Exactly why do you disagree with something everyone except you understands?

Because it doesn’t agree with the other scriptures. Why is it you believe something that isn’t supported anywhere else in the NT? Is it because everyone else accepts it and it’s popular?

 

[David in NJ]

Right, the saints are overcome because the scriptures say so. But you are denying other scriptures in order to place that overcoming event in the future. We don’t have to accept a personal defeated status when currently nothing can separate us from the love of God.

Romans 8:35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 37Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Do you really hear yourself? You have to say believers need to look at being persecuted as being defeated instead of being more than conquerors and that physical death defeats believers. What are you going to put on your tombstone, “here lies ewq1938 a defeated Christian”?

You are promoting defeatism, give up defeated Premil and come join the rest of us that are victorious. As the song say we are more than conquerors, not we are all defeated.

Defeatism???

Is that what you say to the Lord Jesus Christ who said take up your cross and follow Me?

Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[David in NJ]

No, I’m saying something in Revelation would be incorrect if it applies to us today. Revelation is true and correct but somethings apply to old covenant saints, just like the stipulations in the Law don’t apply to us today. I have no issues eating a BLT sandwich because of my understanding of the scriptures.


Christians have been killed and persecuted ever since they were first called Christians but I don’t consider any of them as being overcome or defeated. Tell me, was Paul defeated? If not then why would you consider any other Christian defeated that died for their faith?


Because it doesn’t agree with the other scriptures. Why is it you believe something that isn’t supported anywhere else in the NT? Is it because everyone else accepts it and it’s popular?

Revelation is true and correct but somethings apply to old covenant saints,

It is IMPOSSIBLE for Revelation to apply to OT saints.

 

[grafted branch]

Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Why exactly are you quoting Matthew 10:28?

Christians shouldn’t fear those who kill the body but can’t kill the soul, so when a Christian dies for their faith they aren’t in fear and they are considered worthy by most of us.

Why would you consider that to be overcome? Don’t you want to be accounted worthy to die for your faith?

It is IMPOSSIBLE for Revelation to apply to OT saints.

No, it’s impossible for it to apply to NT saints. Do you have any verses that show that NT saints can be overcome by physical death? Any verses at all? I’m still waiting for someone to bring up a verse that shows this.

 

[David in NJ]

Why exactly are you quoting Matthew 10:28?

Christians shouldn’t fear those who kill the body but can’t kill the soul, so when a Christian dies for their faith they aren’t in fear and they are considered worthy by most of us.

Why would you consider that to be overcome? Don’t you want to be accounted worthy to die for your faith?


No, it’s impossible for it to apply to NT saints. Do you have any verses that show that NT saints can be overcome by physical death? Any verses at all? I’m still waiting for someone to bring up a verse that shows this.

Do you have any verses that show that NT saints can be overcome by physical death?

OK - Close your eyes and count to ten and then OPEN those blind eyes and SEE

Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.