When the saints are overcome

[Truth7t7]

They only do this during the millennium.

No such thing as a future Millennium on this earth, it's a fabricated fairy tale of man found no place in scripture

 

[grafted branch]

To be overcome means to be defeated in some way. In this situation, the beast overcomes/kills the saints. It is mentioned multiple times in Rev and even Christ spoke of this in the OD.

I agree, to be overcome means to be defeated in some kind of way, and it is stated in several places that the saints are overcome.

The problem is believers under the new covenant can’t be overcome. Insisting it’s new covenant saints that are overcome is where the problem lies.

If you would simply acknowledge that it’s old covenant saints that get overcome the problems get solved and we don’t have to compromise our hermeneutics.

 

[grafted branch]

It ABSOLUTELY means EXACTLY what Christ says - both in the Gospel and in Revelation

Matthew 10:28 - And you should not be afraid of those killing the body but not being able to kill the soul.
Indeed rather you should fear the One being able to destroy both soul and body in Hell.

CRYSTAL CLEAR

“And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write,

‘These things says the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life: “I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.
Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer.
Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days.
Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

11“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.” ’

Yea, I agree with your post, new covenant saints have nothing to fear, God is the only one who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Since God isn’t going to destroy a new covenant saint, they have nothing to fear and they will never be overcome.

That however doesn’t explain how the Revelation 13 beast overcomes the saints. Hint, it’s old covenant saints not new covenant saints that get overcome.

 

[grafted branch]

The (Two Witnesses) are the saints that are overcome and killed when they finish their testimony in Jerusalem for 3.5 years as seen in Revelation 11:7 and Revelation 13:7 below, same event in parallel teachings

Revelation 11:7KJV
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Revelation 13:7KJV
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Right, which clearly shows there is a difference between being overcome and killed. The two witnesses are both overcome and killed.

How do you propose the two witnesses get overcome?

 

[Truth7t7]

Right, which clearly shows there is a difference between being overcome and killed. The two witnesses are both overcome and killed.

How do you propose the two witnesses get overcome?

The (Two Witnesses) will bring literal plagues upon this earth a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

The plagues will torment the world as Revelation 11:10 below teaches, this will draw the world armies to Israel/Jerusalem to kill the (Two Witnesses)

They will be overcome in Jerusalem by that which nobody knows, bullets, handgrenades, take a pick?

 

[grafted branch]

They will be overcome in Jerusalem by that which nobody knows, bullets, handgrenades, take a pick?

Why would any of those things be considered as being overcome? No matter what physically happens to a believer it’s not considered as being overcome, right? Was Paul overcome?

2 Corinthians 11:23Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft. 24Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one. 25Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep; 26In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; 27In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness. 28Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.

 

[ewq1938]

No such thing as a future Millennium on this earth, it's a fabricated fairy tale of man found no place in scripture

No such thing as a happening-right-now Millennium anywhere, it's a fabricated fairy tale of man found no place in scripture. The future Millennium is the only one found in scripture.

 

[ewq1938]

I agree, to be overcome means to be defeated in some kind of way, and it is stated in several places that the saints are overcome.

The problem is believers under the new covenant can’t be overcome.

Well, that is wrong. They can be overcome in the sense of being physically killed and it's been happening since the start of the NT church.

Insisting it’s new covenant saints that are overcome is where the problem lies.

If you would simply acknowledge that it’s old covenant saints that get overcome the problems get solved and we don’t have to compromise our hermeneutics.

NT saints have been overcome CONSTANTLY, for thousands of years. Read the bible.

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

 

[David in NJ]

Yea, I agree with your post, new covenant saints have nothing to fear, God is the only one who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Since God isn’t going to destroy a new covenant saint, they have nothing to fear and they will never be overcome.

That however doesn’t explain how the Revelation 13 beast overcomes the saints. Hint, it’s old covenant saints not new covenant saints that get overcome.

Thank you for your reply and i AGREE with you on your first two sentences.

The saints are a collective body into One New Man in the Lord Jesus Christ = Jew & Gentile = worldwide

The saints have been and are being persecuted today, being sold into slavery, imprisoned, beaten, raped and murdered.

It will only get worse for ALL saints - everywhere.

There are no separate group of saints - there is only separate LOCATIONS of the saints spread out throughout the world
Therefore, some saints are in far greater peril(physically) then us here in the USA

Lift our SUFFERING Brothers and Sisters UP in Prayer

 

[ewq1938]

Why would any of those things be considered as being overcome? No matter what physically happens to a believer it’s not considered as being overcome, right?

lol, no it's wrong.

Was Paul overcome?

Yes. Have you forgotten what you said not long ago this same day? "I agree, to be overcome means to be defeated in some kind of way, and it is stated in several places that the saints are overcome."

 

[grafted branch]

Well, that is wrong. They can be overcome in the sense of being physically killed and it's been happening since the start of the NT church.

Well as a believer, whether by life or death, Christ is magnified in my body and if I physically die it is considered a gain, it’s not considered to be overcome.

Philippians 1:20According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death. 21For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

NT saints have been overcome CONSTANTLY, for thousands of years. Read the bible.

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

No doubt many believers have been physically killed for their faith but I consider it a privilege and honor to sacrifice one’s life for their faith. I can’t understand why you would consider it to be overcome.

Acts 5:40And to him they agreed: and when they had called the apostles, and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go. 41And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.

 

[Truth7t7]

No such thing as a happening-right-now Millennium anywhere, it's a fabricated fairy tale of man found no place in scripture. The future Millennium is the only one found in scripture.

No such thing as the word Millennium found in my KJV Holy Bible anywhere

 

[grafted branch]

The saints are a collective body into One New Man in the Lord Jesus Christ = Jew & Gentile = worldwide

The saints have been and are being persecuted today, being sold into slavery, imprisoned, beaten, raped and murdered.

It will only get worse for ALL saints - everywhere.

So the gates of hell are prevailing against the Church?

There are no separate group of saints - there is only separate LOCATIONS of the saints spread out throughout the world

Ah, there are different groups of saints according to the Bible.

Deuteronomy 33:1And this is the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death. 2And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them. 3Yea. he loved the people; all his saints are in thy hand: and they sat down at thy feet; every one shall receive of thy words.

Here all the children of Israel, collectively, are called saints, both those who were believers and those who were not.

 

[Truth7t7]

Lift our SUFFERING Brothers and Sisters UP in Prayer

Like Syria being taken over recently by Muslim extremist factions and only 10% of Syria is Christian?

Lord Jesus help your church in a hostile land Amen!

 

[grafted branch]

Yes. Have you forgotten what you said not long ago this same day? "I agree, to be overcome means to be defeated in some kind of way, and it is stated in several places that the saints are overcome."

No, I haven’t forgotten, I don’t consider physical persecution or death as being defeated because under the new covenant these things are nothing compared to salvation through Christ.

Again it’s the old covenant saints that are overcome.

 

[ewq1938]

No, I haven’t forgotten, I don’t consider physical persecution or death as being defeated because under the new covenant these things are nothing compared to salvation through Christ.

It's only a defeat from the enemy's perspective. It's temporary.

Again it’s the old covenant saints that are overcome.

No, it's all who were murdered, OT or NT.

 

[ewq1938]

No such thing as the word Millennium found in my KJV Holy Bible anywhere

That isn't a valid argument.

 

[ewq1938]

Well as a believer, whether by life or death, Christ is magnified in my body and if I physically die it is considered a gain, it’s not considered to be overcome.

To be overcome in the Rev 13 sense is to be Christian and MURDERED. Denying what the Greek manuscripts says will happen is not a valid position to take. The saints WILL BE OVERCOME because God says so.

 

[tailgator]

We know that brother.
We also know that Israel/Jerusalem is the CENTER of world conflict as we approach the revealing of the Antichrist

The rock dropped in the Center of the Pond sends out ripples to the Whole Pond

I have a question for you to ponder concerning Babylon.

According to Isaiah 13:9-17 ,On the day of the Lord ,when all sinners are destroyed out of the land,Iranians will be in Babylon ransacking the houses and raping the women.

According to Zechariah 14:1-2 On the day of the Lord ,All nations will be in Jerusalem ransacking the houses and raping the women.

My question to you since you believe the entire world is babylon,
How can the Iranians be all over the world ransacking the houses and raping the women ,when Zechariah says they are in Jerusalem ransacking the houses and raping the women on the same day?

 

[David in NJ]

So the gates of hell are prevailing against the Church?


Ah, there are different groups of saints according to the Bible.

Deuteronomy 33:1And this is the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death. 2And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them. 3Yea. he loved the people; all his saints are in thy hand: and they sat down at thy feet; every one shall receive of thy words.

Here all the children of Israel, collectively, are called saints, both those who were believers and those who were not.

So the gates of hell are prevailing against the Church?

IMPOSSIBLE because the "gates of hell" are SPIRITUAL and physical death is NOT spiritual death

There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24“Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’

27“Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’ ”