When the saints are overcome

[Davidpt]

Based on what you’re saying it appears to me that a person who holds a Premil view has to also believe that salvation can be lost. Would you agree with that assessment?

That has nothing to do with Premil. There are some Premils that believe only OSAS is Biblical and that NOSAS isn't. And there are some Premils that believe both are Biblical. The same is true of Amils and probably Preterists as well. NOSAS has zero to do with Eschatology positions. But I will say this, though. It makes zero sense that one can be Amil while agreeing that NOSAS is Biblical since NOSAS contradicts Amil's interpretation of the first resurrection. Yet there are some that insist both Amil and NOSAS are Biblical. Except it is impossible that once someone has part in the first resurrection that they can somehow lose part in, thus be cast into the LOF instead. That's exactly what Amil and NOSAS teach.

But anyone reading Revelation 20:6 can plainly see that once anyone has part in the first resurrection they never lose part in it. Yet NOSAS is Biblical. It presents no problem for Premil because the first resurrection isn't meaning a spiritual resurrection that takes place millions of times per this age, it is a bodily resurrection that only takes place when Christ returns. Obviously, once someone puts on bodily immortality when Christ returns, thus the first resurrection, they can't then lose that resurrection somehow. Per Amil they can since Amil interprets the first resurrection to be involving initially being saved. NOSAS means to lose one's salvation.

Per Premil anyone that falls away, thus NOSAS, are then never part of the first resurruction to begin with. Therefore, they obviously can't lose part in the first resurrection because they already fell away before the first resurrection even occurs. Per Amil though, they already have part in the first resurrection before they fall away, thus if they fall away they lose having part in the first resurrection. Which then contradicts Revelation 20:6 since not one person who has part in the first resurrection is going to end up in the LOF instead. But that is what Amil and NOSAS teaches. If Amil was the correct position every single Amil would be of the OSAS camp and that NOSAS would not be Biblical. Except NOSAS is Biblical. So even if every single Amil were of the OSAS camp it still wouldn't make that the correct position since NOSAS is Biblical. IOW, NOSAS and Amil are not compatible with each other. Only OSAS and Amil are compatible with each other, except NOSAS is Biblical which then throws a monkey wrench into it, so to speak.

 

[tailgator]

Right, so how is it that they are being triumphed over when all the things that are happening to them are the things that they desire?

I don't know anyone who desires being in prison.
Jesus did not desire to be nailed to a cross.He did it because it was God's will ,not because he desired excruciating pain.

 

[grafted branch]

Per Amil though, they already have part in the first resurrection before they fall away, thus if they fall away they lose having part in the first resurrection. Which then contradicts Revelation 20:6 since not one person who has part in the first resurrection is going to end up in the LOF instead.

Well I don’t want to argue for or against the Amil view but do you see those who fall away being the same as the saints who are overcome by the beast? Put another way, do you think a saint can fall away, be overcome by the beast and still remain a saint?

 

[amigo de christo]

The beast is very used to killing people and has become very good at it.I don't expect he will have any problem killing Jesus's apostles.

Mathew 23
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

all she did was transform herself from the old to the new . we gots a harlot over christendom that has been
for quite some time as well . And that HO in union shall merge the religoins as one . Jerusalem will be its captial .
The ho does her work through intefaith dialogue and finding common ground . She is a clever ho indeed
and many seem to love her drink of her cup of fornication .

 

[amigo de christo]

Im pretty sure the saints desire is to call all to repentance and belief in Jesus Christ.They want and hope for as many sinners to repent before the great and terrible day of the Lord.



That is why they are imprisoned and killed.

that is why they wont heed a word of interfaith finding common ground dialouge .
THEY KNOW it leadeth to the second death .
and believe me they are hated even now and cast out as haters from churches who go with the flow of the well favored harlot .

 

[grafted branch]

I don't know anyone who desires being in prison.
Jesus did not desire to be nailed to a cross.He did it because it was God's will ,not because he desired excruciating pain.

Sure, I guess we can say Jesus was overcome when they nailed Him to the cross. However that event is not described that way and it doesn’t seem likely that John would be describing those in a future tribulation in that manner either. I would have to have a verse that says Jesus was overcome before I even entertained that idea.

Besides this, why wouldn’t the future beast simply set up clinics where a Christian can voluntarily come to, post their beliefs and testimony on a website, receive an anesthetic, and get their head cut off? This would be a very peaceful calm tribulation where a Christian could be assured to be one of the beheaded in Revelation 20.

Why wouldn’t a future beast take this type of course, it would be very simple and all people who believe in a Premil way would have it easy?

 

[Davidpt]

Well I don’t want to argue for or against the Amil view but do you see those who fall away being the same as the saints who are overcome by the beast? Put another way, do you think a saint can fall away, be overcome by the beast and still remain a saint?

You seem to be somewhat conflating things here. To be overcome by the beast doesn't mean they fall away if they refused to worship it, and by doing so it allowed the beast to continue nonstop persecuting them, even killing some of them. Anyone that falls away means that they escape nonstop persecution and possible death by way of the beast. The beast isn't persecuting and killing anyone worshiping it, it is doing those things to saints that refuse to worship it.

It might look like the following.

Initially one is a saint. Some are overcome by the beast because it is persecuting them and even killing some of them. And that they remain saints as long as they don't change course and decide to worship it instead in order to escape persecution and possible death.

On the flip side of that it would look like this. Initially one is a saint. The beast then begins persecuting them and that they know they can even be killed at the hands of it. Instead of having to deal with that they then decide it would be better, thus safer, to worship it instead. At this point these saints are no longer saints, they have lost their salvation, they have fallen away.

 

[amigo de christo]

Sure, I guess we can say Jesus was overcome when they nailed Him to the cross. However that event is not described that way and it doesn’t seem likely that John would be describing those in a future tribulation in that manner either. I would have to have a verse that says Jesus was overcome before I even entertained that idea.

Besides this, why wouldn’t the future beast simply set up clinics where a Christian can voluntarily come to, post their beliefs and testimony on a website, receive an anesthetic, and get their head cut off? This would be a very peaceful calm tribulation where a Christian could be assured to be one of the beheaded in Revelation 20.

Why wouldn’t a future beast take this type of course, it would be very simple and all people who believe in a Premil way would have it easy?

he was not overcome . HE COULD HAVE SENT TWELVE LEGIONS of angels .
HE GAVE UP HIS LIFE WILLING . HE DEFEATED HE who had power over death . HE DID this not for himself
BUT FOR US , as was the WILL OF THE FATHER who sent him .
Many lambs have bled since then and soon in this last hour many more in even western socities will bleed again for HIS NAME SAKE
cause they didnt conform to satans interfaith . Be ye prepared to suffer and to lose all for HIS name sake
cause a whole ton of christendom as well as the other religoins
as well as the govts , GONNA BE COMING FOR US ALL . All who did not conform to the image of their so called love god
that had made the path so broad will be hated .

 

[amigo de christo]

You seem to be somewhat conflating things here. To be overcome by the beast doesn't mean they fall away if they refused to worship it, and by doing so it allowed the beast to continue nonstop persecuting them, even killing some of them. Anyone that falls away means that they escape nonstop persecution and possible death by way of the beast. The beast isn't persecuting and killing anyone worshiping it, it is doing those things to saints that refuse to worship it.

It might look like the following.

Initially one is a saint. Some are overcome by the beast because it is persecuting them and even killing some of them. And that they remain saints as long as they don't change course and decide to worship it instead in order to escape persecution and possible death.

On the flip side of that it would look like this. Initially one is a saint. The beast then begins persecuting them and that they know they can even be killed at the hands of it. Instead of having to deal with that they then decide it would be better, thus safer, to worship it instead. At this point these saints are no longer saints, they have lost their salvation, they have fallen away.

What is coming is the greatest tribulation to ever come against the true who conformed NOT to satans interfaith
of the false love god that made that path so broad , so sin accepting and unbelif accepting broad .
That which is of anti christ HAS BEEN at work . And most are headed as one right under it .
JESUS shed his blood
be prepared to shed thine . cause this god hating world and its false love god WILL COME FULL FORCE AND SOON
against any and all who did not conform to it .

 

[tailgator]

Sure, I guess we can say Jesus was overcome when they nailed Him to the cross. However that event is not described that way and it doesn’t seem likely that John would be describing those in a future tribulation in that manner either. I would have to have a verse that says Jesus was overcome before I even entertained that idea.

Besides this, why wouldn’t the future beast simply set up clinics where a Christian can voluntarily come to, post their beliefs and testimony on a website, receive an anesthetic, and get their head cut off? This would be a very peaceful calm tribulation where a Christian could be assured to be one of the beheaded in Revelation 20.

Why wouldn’t a future beast take this type of course, it would be very simple and all people who believe in a Premil way would have it easy?

Because that's not how the Israeli government works.

They see anyone who opposes them as an enemy and a traitor to the state of they are in it.They put such people in prison and kill them.

 

[grafted branch]

It might look like the following.

Initially one is a saint. Some are overcome by the beast because it is persecuting them and even killing some of them. And that they remain saints as long as they don't change course and decide to worship it instead in order to escape persecution and possible death.

On the flip side of that it would look like this. Initially one is a saint. The beast then begins persecuting them and that they know they can even be killed at the hands of it. Instead of having to deal with that they then decide it would be better, thus safer, to worship it instead. At this point these saints are no longer saints, they have lost their salvation, they have fallen away.

I don’t believe a person can loose salvation but if you interpret those saints who worship the beast as loosing salvation then yea, that idea works.

However, if you have saints being “overcome” because they are persecuted and face possible execution, then we will have to conclude all the apostles were overcome, Paul was overcome, nearly every Christian has or will be overcome. That makes the 42 moths that the beast overcomes the saints a meaningless statement.

 

[amigo de christo]

Because that's not how the Israeli government works.

They see anyone who opposes them as an enemy and a traitor to the state.They put such people in prison and kill them.

PRO LONGED DENTENTION . Soon enough any and all that did not conform to satans version of what he calleth the love god
and of his interfaith will face this . My advice to one is the same i give to all
DO NOT trust nor hope in govt , in men , in rep or dem , TRUST N HOPE IN GOD .

 

[grafted branch]

he was not overcome . HE COULD HAVE SENT TWELVE LEGIONS of angels .
HE GAVE UP HIS LIFE WILLING . HE DEFEATED HE who had power over death . HE DID this not for himself
BUT FOR US , as was the WILL OF THE FATHER who sent him .
Many lambs have bled since then and soon in this last hour many more in even western socities will bleed again for HIS NAME SAKE
cause they didnt conform to satans interfaith . Be ye prepared to suffer and to lose all for HIS name sake
cause a whole ton of christendom as well as the other religoins
as well as the govts , GONNA BE COMING FOR US ALL . All who did not conform to the image of their so called love god
that had made the path so broad will be hated .

I absolutely agree, Jesus was not overcome and He willingly gave up His life. This is the example that those who will supposedly find themselves in a 42 month reign of the beast follow. They will not be overcome, they will willingly lay down their lives for their faith.

That is why the beast can’t overcome saints who are under the new covenant.

 

[Davidpt]

What is coming is the greatest tribulation to ever come against the true who conformed NOT to satans interfaith
of the false love god that made that path so broad , so sin accepting and unbelif accepting broad .
That which is of anti christ HAS BEEN at work . And most are headed as one right under it .
JESUS shed his blood
be prepared to shed thine . cause this god hating world and its false love god WILL COME FULL FORCE AND SOON
against any and all who did not conform to it .

Unfortunately, Preterists and those that agree with these Preterists, would have us believe great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be, is already in the past and that it involved unbelieving Jews and 70 AD. If they say so.

They won't be saying that for long though, assuming they are still alive when great tribulation really begins, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

 

[grafted branch]

Because that's not how the Israeli government works.

They see anyone who opposes them as an enemy and a traitor to the state of they are in it.They put such people in prison and kill them.

So you’re saying the current Israeli government is the beast? We are looking at how the beast overcomes the saints not the enemies of the nation of Israel.

 

[amigo de christo]

Unfortunately, Preterists and those that agree with these Preterists, would have us believe great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be, is already in the past and that it involved unbelieving Jews and 70 AD. If they say so. They won't be saying that for long, assuming they are still alive when great tribulation really begins, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

i fear something far worse will come upon them . THE mindset that while folks like us are being rounded up
this is for a good cause . THEY NEVER GONNA SEE IT for what it was , THE GREAT TRIBULATION
and if a man thinks the wrath of man is bad , WAIT TILL THE WRATH OF GOD COMETH UPON THEM ALL .
THOUGH i dont desire that for them but rather they repent . MANY WILL SOON UNITE and BELIEVE
that when folks like us are rounded up , THEY DO SO BY GODS WILL . yes the time is and is coming
when they who persecute you , kill you WILL THINK THEY DO GODS WILL . aint nothig new under the sun .

 

[amigo de christo]

So you’re saying the current Israeli government is the beast? We are looking at how the beast overcomes the saints not the enemies of the nation of Israel.

It as are many govts of the world are under the influence of anti christ leading all to the beast to be as one
under what they all believe is GOD and is LOVE . Remember when i told ya intefaith is of anti christ , of satan .
BELIEVE IT . get in the bible NOW .

 

[grafted branch]

Unfortunately, Preterists and those that agree with these Preterists, would have us believe great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be, is already in the past and that it involved unbelieving Jews and 70 AD. If they say so.

They won't be saying that for long though, assuming they are still alive when great tribulation really begins, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

And Premil would have us believe that there’s going to be some kind of great tribulation where all Christians are in fear for their lives, when all a future beast will have to do is set up clinics where Premils can go and be euthanized.

 

[grafted branch]

BELIEVE IT . get in the bible NOW .

I am, and the preterist view stands out as the most logical choice as it agrees and harmonizes more scripture than any other view.

Can you answer the question of how a saint can be overcome when they are under the new covenant?

 

[amigo de christo]

I am, and the preterist view stands out as the most logical choice as it agrees and harmonizes more scripture than any other view.

Can you answer the question of how a saint can be overcome when they are under the new covenant?

it means killed friend . gotta read it for you and not through the lens of preterism and of man .
The problem with most folks is , they always seem to read what they read in the bible
through the mindset of whatever men or teaching they sat under . READ it for you .
ENJOY it daily for you . by grace i been reading that bible for over eighteen years daily
and it just never gets old to me . by grace . now lets start fresh and anew
in the bible for ourselves shall we .