When the saints are overcome

[tailgator]

The beast is very used to killing people and has become very good at it.I don't expect he will have any problem killing Jesus's apostles.

Mathew 23
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

 

[grafted branch]

But he can physically kill them.

These are things the beast can do to the saints


Mathew 10
16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;

18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.

19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.

20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.

22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.






Also,the saints won't be able to buy anything in Israel during during their tribulation





5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,

10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.

Look at Philippians 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. Whether living in persecution or dying, both conditions for a believer are victorious.

Regardless of what the beast can do to the saints, including physical death, why would it be considered as being overcome for a saint?

 

[tailgator]

Look at Philippians 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. Whether living in persecution or dying, both conditions for a believer are victorious.

Regardless of what the beast can do to the saints, including physical death, why would it be considered as being overcome for a saint?

This was your question in the first post.

"How can the beast overcome a saint if he can’t overcome them by physically killing them?"


To answer your question,if a saint falls away then he wouldn't be a saint.

 

[tailgator]

Everyone in Israel has a choice.

They can worship the beast,it's image and recieve it's mark.

Or they can flee into the wilderness.Move to another country.

Or they can follow the lamb of God preaching to the lost sheep of Israel knowing they will be persecuted and killed.Them who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ will stay put in Israel and warn the people to repent.



Revelation 12
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

[grafted branch]

This was your question in the first post.

"How can the beast overcome a saint if he can’t overcome them by physically killing them?"


To answer your question,if a saint falls away then he wouldn't be a saint.

So how are you defining “saint”? Can an unbeliever be a saint?

 

[tailgator]

So how are you defining “saint”? Can an unbeliever be a saint?

No
A saint is a follower of Jesus Christ having been baptized into Christ by the spirit.
Such as saint Mathew
Saint John
Saint Peter


The elect.
Mathew 24
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

 

[grafted branch]

No
A saint is a follower of Jesus Christ having been baptized into Christ by the spirit.
Such as saint Mathew
Saint John
Saint Peter


The elect.
Mathew 24
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Ok, so when a saint falls away do they loose their salvation or do they remain saints?

 

[tailgator]

Ok, so when a saint falls away do they loose their salvation or do they remain saints?

They are burned in the lake of fire.

Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

 

[grafted branch]

They are burned in the lake of fire.

Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Based on what you’re saying it appears to me that a person who holds a Premil view has to also believe that salvation can be lost. Would you agree with that assessment?

 

[tailgator]

Based on what you’re saying it appears to me that a person who holds a Premil view has to also believe that salvation can be lost. Would you agree with that assessment?

I guess it would depend on your definition of salvation.

Preservation or deliverance from harm, ruin, or loss.
"they try to sell it to us as economic salvation"


Kinda hard to say you were preserved and delivered from harm if you fell away.

 

[tailgator]

Based on what you’re saying it appears to me that a person who holds a Premil view has to also believe that salvation can be lost. Would you agree with that assessment?

If I lived in Israel and wasn't sure about the beast,I would simply leave like I believe about all of the Arab Christians and church members will do.

If I was an Israeli who knows what the beast is and the false prophet which comes in Jesus name,I would do the work of a watchman knowing I would die.

 

[grafted branch]

I guess it would depend on your definition of salvation.

Preservation or deliverance from harm, ruin, or loss.
"they try to sell it to us as economic salvation"


Kinda hard to say you were preserved and delivered from harm if you fell away.

Ok, I actually agree that if you hold the view that salvation can be lost then you can put the Revelation 13 sea beast as a future event.

Personally I don’t believe salvation can be lost so I don’t find that to be a possibility but I’m not going to debate salvation in this area of the forum.

While we having a conversation on this topic, I’m interested in if you think the beast will literally behead people, which are then seen in Revelation 20 after they die.

 

[tailgator]

Ok, I actually agree that if you hold the view that salvation can be lost then you can put the Revelation 13 sea beast as a future event.

Personally I don’t believe salvation can be lost so I don’t find that to be a possibility but I’m not going to debate salvation in this area of the forum.

While we having a conversation on this topic, I’m interested in if you think the beast will literally behead people, which are then seen in Revelation 20 after they die.

The sea beast isn't future, It is past present and future

Soon as Jesus was born it tried to kill him.In those days the leader of the sea beast was Herod
In 70 ad ,the sea beast recieved a deadly wound.
In 1948 the deadly wound was healed and Jews from all nations followed after him and still are.


Everything I've been posting about the saints in Israel being killed is about the sea beast.


Mathew 10
23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

 

[grafted branch]

The sea beast isn't future, It is past present and future

Soon as Jesus was born it tried to kill him.In those days the leader of the sea beast was Herod
In 70 ad ,the sea beast recieved a deadly wound.
In 1948 the deadly wound was healed and Jews from all nations followed after him and still are.


Everything I've been posting about the saints in Israel being killed is about the sea beast.


Mathew 10
23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Ok, thanks.

 

[ewq1938]

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.


G3528
νικάω
nikaō
nik-ah'-o
From G3529; to subdue (literally or figuratively): - conquer, overcome, prevail, get the victory.
Total KJV occurrences: 28

G3528
νικάω
nikaō
Thayer Definition:
1) to conquer
1a) to carry off the victory, come off victorious
1a1) of Christ, victorious over all His foes
1a2) of Christians, that hold fast their faith even unto death against the power of their foes, and temptations and persecutions
1a3) when one is arraigned or goes to law, to win the case, maintain one’s cause
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G3529

Barnes:

And to overcome them - In those wars. This was abundantly fulfilled in the wars with the Waldenses, the Albigenses, and the other sincere followers of the Saviour in the time of the papal persecutions. The language used here is the same as what is found in Dan_7:21; “The same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them.” See the notes on that passage.

Gill:

and to overcome them: not so as to submit to him, and to forsake the doctrines and ordinances of Christ, but by killing them; and who, by dying in the faith and cause of Christ, overcome Satan, get the victory over the world, and antichrist, and are more than conquerors through him that has loved them.



Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Rev 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.


The Christian saints killed during Satan's wrathful Great Tribulation are resurrected:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God , and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

[grafted branch]

Gill:

and to overcome them: not so as to submit to him, and to forsake the doctrines and ordinances of Christ, but by killing them; and who, by dying in the faith and cause of Christ, overcome Satan, get the victory over the world, and antichrist, and are more than conquerors through him that has loved them.

Take a closer look at what Gill is saying, on the one hand he’s saying the saints are overcome by being physically killed, on the other hand the saints are not overcome because they die for their faith. You can’t have it both ways, either the saints are overcome by physical death or they aren’t overcome by physical death.

It appears to me that Gill is putting forth the idea that from the beasts perspective killing the saints is getting the victory over them but from the saints perspective they are getting the victory by dying for their faith.

If that is your position, then can you show me other examples where we are not to read the Bible from a believers perspective?

For example the parable of the ten virgins in Matthew 25:1-13, should we look at this as the wise virgins were not wise from a Christian perspective but were wise from the perspective of an unbeliever? That is exactly the hermeneutics Gill is using by saying the saints were overcome by being physically killed. If that is a valid method of interpreting scripture then we need to look at all the verses from both perspectives. Does Gill do this elsewhere in his commentary?

Where else in the Bible is this type of hermeneutic ever used?

 

[tailgator]

Take a closer look at what Gill is saying, on the one hand he’s saying the saints are overcome by being physically killed, on the other hand the saints are not overcome because they die for their faith. You can’t have it both ways, either the saints are overcome by physical death or they aren’t overcome by physical death.

It appears to me that Gill is putting forth the idea that from the beasts perspective killing the saints is getting the victory over them but from the saints perspective they are getting the victory by dying for their faith.

If that is your position, then can you show me other examples where we are not to read the Bible from a believers perspective?

For example the parable of the ten virgins in Matthew 25:1-13, should we look at this as the wise virgins were not wise from a Christian perspective but were wise from the perspective of an unbeliever? That is exactly the hermeneutics Gill is using by saying the saints were overcome by being physically killed. If that is a valid method of interpreting scripture then we need to look at all the verses from both perspectives. Does Gill do this elsewhere in his commentary?

Where else in the Bible is this type of hermeneutic ever used?

I noticed being overcome can mean being subdued

G3528
νικάω
nikaō
nik-ah'-o
From G3529; to subdue (literally or figuratively): - conquer, overcome, prevail, get the victory.
Total KJV occurrences: 28


Revelation ,Daniel and the Olivet disorse all say the saints are imprisoned.

Would you consider being imprisoned as being subdued ?

 

[grafted branch]

I noticed being overcome can mean being subdued

G3528
νικάω
nikaō
nik-ah'-o
From G3529; to subdue (literally or figuratively): - conquer, overcome, prevail, get the victory.
Total KJV occurrences: 28


Revelation ,Daniel and the Olivet disorse all say the saints are imprisoned.

Would you consider being imprisoned as being subdued ?

Jesus taught us to pray, “thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven”. If a believer truly wants Gods will to be done and they also believe the Revelation 13 beast is still future then they must want to be “overcome” by the beast else they are resisting the scriptures, Gods will, and desire them to be unfulfilled.

The word “overcome” conveys the idea of triumphing over adversaries or enemies. If we interpret the word “overcome” as simply being subdued or imprisoned then this should be the desire of a saint who wants to have the scriptures fulfilled as described. Meaning a saint should desire to be put in prison for their faith by the beast else they wouldn’t be a true saint if the beast didn’t imprison them during the 42 months.

How can a person who desires to be overcome (triumphed over) actually be overcome (triumphed over)? The only way would be if the beast didn’t imprison the saints but then the Bible would be untrue.

The solution to this problem is found in a preterist view, the saints were overcome in order for them to killed their Messiah.

1 Corinthians 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

 

[tailgator]

Jesus taught us to pray, “thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven”. If a believer truly wants Gods will to be done and they also believe the Revelation 13 beast is still future then they must want to be “overcome” by the beast else they are resisting the scriptures, Gods will, and desire them to be unfulfilled.

The word “overcome” conveys the idea of triumphing over adversaries or enemies. If we interpret the word “overcome” as simply being subdued or imprisoned then this should be the desire of a saint who wants to have the scriptures fulfilled as described. Meaning a saint should desire to be put in prison for their faith by the beast else they wouldn’t be a true saint if the beast didn’t imprison them during the 42 months.

How can a person who desires to be overcome (triumphed over) actually be overcome (triumphed over)? The only way would be if the beast didn’t imprison the saints but then the Bible would be untrue.

The solution to this problem is found in a preterist view, the saints were overcome in order for them to killed their Messiah.

1 Corinthians 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Im pretty sure the saints desire is to call all to repentance and belief in Jesus Christ.They want and hope for as many sinners to repent before the great and terrible day of the Lord.



That is why they are imprisoned and killed.

 

[grafted branch]

Im pretty sure the saints desire is to call all to repentance and belief in Jesus Christ.They want and hope for as many sinners to repent before the great and terrible day of the Lord.



That is why they are imprisoned and killed.

Right, so how is it that they are being triumphed over when all the things that are happening to them are the things that they desire?