When the saints are overcome

[grafted branch]

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.



So how is the beast overcoming the saints? Before the cross they went to Sheol, so I can see how that could be considered as being overcome but now to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

I would think a believer would count it as an honor to give up their life as a testimony to their faith and in Philippians 1:20 Paul says Christ shall be magnified in his body whether by life or death.

How can the beast overcome a saint if he can’t overcome them by physically killing them?

 

[grafted branch]

Na

 

[grafted branch]

Then you should read the words (highlighted) of Revelation 13:6-7 and compare it with the (highlighted) words in Daniel 7:25.

It is the same person in both chapters. But referred to as the little horn in Daniel 7 and the beast in Revelation 13.

Revelation 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

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The church is not here in the 42 months of Revelation 13:5 and the time, times, half times of Daniel 7:25. The rapture/resurrection event will take place before then.

So are you saying the saints simply aren’t ever overcome or warn out? Meaning they are raptured and there are no saints on earth the overcome?

If so, how can that be when it says the saints will be overcome? The Bible has to be true.

 

[Douggg]

So are you saying the saints simply aren’t ever overcome or warn out? Meaning they are raptured and there are no saints on earth the overcome?

If so, how can that be when it says the saints will be overcome? The Bible has to be true.

I am saying that there will be persons who turn to Christ after the rapture/resurrection takes place.

Those persons will become the great tribulation saints who will be persecuted for their belief in Jesus. And many martyred for refusing to worship the beast or his image.

But even if they are overcome physically, eternally the saints overcome the beast, the false prophet, and Satan - as the martyred great tribulation saints will be resurrected to eternal life in Revelation 20:4-6.

Also, their eternal overcoming is found in Revelation 12:11

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

 

[Keraz]

How can the beast overcome a saint if he can’t overcome them by physically killing them?

But the 'beast' is able to kill Gods holy people. Satan has been doing that forever. Only the 2 Witnesses are indestructible and then only until 3 1/2 days before Jesus Returns.
As Daniel 9:27 says; at the mid point of the final seven years, Gods faithful peoples will be living in Jerusalem and in all of the holy Land. The leader of the rest of the world will break the peace treaty with them and will conquer them. The horrible Prophecy in Zechariah 14:1-2, describes this disaster.
However: those who refused to agree to that treaty and kept strong on their faith for the Lords protection, will be taken to a distant place of safety, for that 1260 day period. Rev 12:14

 

[grafted branch]

I am saying that there will be persons who turn to Christ after the rapture/resurrection takes place.

Those persons will become the great tribulation saints who will be persecuted for their belief in Jesus. And many martyred for refusing to worship the beast or his image.

Ok, so why would those people who are saved in the tribulation think of their persecution and martyrdom as being overcome while believers currently don’t consider persecution and martyrdom as being overcome?

 

[grafted branch]

But the 'beast' is able to kill Gods holy people. Satan has been doing that forever. Only the 2 Witnesses are indestructible and then only until 3 1/2 days before Jesus Returns.
As Daniel 9:27 says; at the mid point of the final seven years, Gods faithful peoples will be living in Jerusalem and in all of the holy Land. The leader of the rest of the world will break the peace treaty with them and will conquer them. The horrible Prophecy in Zechariah 14:1-2, describes this disaster.
However: those who refused to agree to that treaty and kept strong on their faith for the Lords protection, will be taken to a distant place of safety, for that 1260 day period. Rev 12:14

In Philippians 1:20 Paul says Christ shall be magnified in his body whether by life or death.

Would you consider Paul as being overcome?

 

[Douggg]

Ok, so why would those people who are saved in the tribulation think of their persecution and martyrdom as being overcome while believers currently don’t consider persecution and martyrdom as being overcome?

Overcome physically in terms of being put to death for their testimony of Jesus. But not overcome eternally, as they will be resurrected to eternal life.

 

[Keraz]

I am saying that there will be persons who turn to Christ after the rapture/resurrection takes place.

Firstly - there is no 'rapture/resurrection' to heaven event said to happen anywhere in the Bible.

Then Revelation 13:3-4 says - the whole world will go after the 'beast' in wondering admiration.
There will be very few, if any new converts when Satan takes over world control. The Christian peoples remain on earth, proved by Rev 14 and 17.

 

[grafted branch]

Overcome physically in terms of being put to death for their testimony of Jesus. But not overcome eternally, as they will be resurrected to eternal life.

Where in the Bible are believers considered to be overcome by a physical act?

Romans 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

 

[Keraz]

In Philippians 1:20 Paul says Christ shall be magnified in his body whether by life or death.

Would you consider Paul as being overcome?

Paul was an Overcomer, like all the Overcomers for Christ, as we see in each of the 7 Churchs. If Paul was killed by Rome, which I doubt, then they overcame his body, but never his spirit/soul. He certainly did 'Magnify Christ', alive and dead!

 

[grafted branch]

Paul was an Overcomer, like all the Overcomers for Christ, as we see in each of the 7 Churchs. If Paul was killed by Rome, which I doubt, then they overcame his body, but never his spirit/soul. He certainly did 'Magnify Christ', alive and dead!

All people have to physically die, are you saying every believer will be overcome?

If so then believers overcome while simultaneously they are overcome themselves. That doesn’t make logical sense to me.

 

[Davidpt]

Where in the Bible are believers considered to be overcome by a physical act?

Romans 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

Why are you unable to accept that overcome can be applied in more than one manner to someone?


Jesus overcame, did He not? And did He not have to die first in order to overcome?

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne , even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne


Jesus said this about Himself---even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. So when did He get set down with His Father in His throne? Before He died or after He died? BTW, the answer to that also gives us the answer to this part since we can't interpret one part differently than we interpret the other part since would equal cherry picking---To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne.

Obviously, this part---To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne--is involving the millennium.

The 2 thrones in view.

1) my throne, meaning Jesus' throne
2) his throne, meaning the Father's throne

It is then a question of, since there are obviously 2 thrones in view here. When does Christ initially sit upon His throne, meaning 1) not 2) since 2) is already being fulfilled, 1) obviously isn't?

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:


Here it is plain as day telling us when 1) in Revelation 3:21 is initially fulfilled. Therefore, Premil agrees with the texts involved, unlike other positions that disagree with the texts involved, thus contradict the texts involved. Plus, we have to keep in mind, Jesus isn't set down with His Father in His Father's throne forever. He only does that until all enemies have been made His footstool and that the great white judgment has been fulfilled. The same then has to be said about the overcomers. They don't sit down with Christ in Christ's throne forever. They only do this during the millennium.

Speaking of the millennium then. They are not overcome during the millennium nor after it. They are overcome prior to it, thus Premil. For the beast to overcome someone by putting relentless pressure on them, that it might be better for them to simply worship it rather than be persecuted and killed by it, but that they refuse to then means they overcame the beast that overcame them.

To not overcome the beast means to worship it rather than be persecuted and killed by it.
To overcome the beast means not worship it, thus instead be subject to persecution and death by it.

 

[Keraz]

All people have to physically die, are you saying every believer will be overcome?

If so then believers overcome while simultaneously they are overcome themselves. That doesn’t make logical sense to me.

Death is not an 'overcoming'.
Overcomers are people who resist the wiles of Satan and hold fast to Jesus.

 

[grafted branch]

Why are you unable to accept that overcome can be applied in more than one manner to someone?


Jesus overcame, did He not? And did He not have to die first in order to overcome?

The last enemy is death (1 Corinthians 15:26). Since people still physically die and you seem to be applying physical death to how the saints are being overcome, would you say that Christ is currently overcome by the physical death of His saints and will be overcome by physical death until that enemy is destroyed?

If so then I can argue that Jesus has not overcome yet.

To not overcome the beast means to worship it rather than be persecuted and killed by it.
To overcome the beast means not worship it, thus instead be subject to persecution and death by it.

Is it your view then that some saints are overcome and some saints aren’t overcome by the beast? Meaning collectively the beast only overcomes 50% or some other percentage, not a total overcoming.

 

[grafted branch]

Death is not an 'overcoming'.
Overcomers are people who resist the wiles of Satan and hold fast to Jesus.

Ok, I agree physical death for a believer doesn’t equate to being overcome.

How do you see the beast overcoming the saints? Do you believe a person can loose their salvation?

 

[tailgator]

How can the beast overcome a saint if he can’t overcome them by physically killing them?

But he can physically kill them.

These are things the beast can do to the saints


Mathew 10
16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;

18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.

19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.

20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.

22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.






Also,the saints won't be able to buy anything in Israel during during their tribulation





5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,

10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.

 

[tailgator]

This is also what the beast can do to the saints.

Daniel 11:33-35
Wise leaders will give instruction to many, but these teachers will die by fire and sword, or they will be jailed and robbed.
During these persecutions, little help will arrive, and many who join them will not be sincere.
And some of the wise will fall victim to persecution. In this way, they will be refined and cleansed and made pure until the time of the end, for the appointed time is still to come.

 

[tailgator]

This too is what the beast can do to the saints

Revelation 13:10
Anyone who is destined for prison will be taken to prison. Anyone destined to die by the sword will die by the sword. This means that God’s holy people must endure persecution patiently and remain faithful.


Revelation 14:13
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

 

[tailgator]

Daniel 7
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.


For a couple years now the beast has been attempting to change laws.I expect the 3.5 year tribulation of the saints in Israel to begin next year.