What is YOUR "thorn in the flesh"?

[Marvelloustime]

What the real question that needs to be asked
is not what is the difference between the two
but rather This , DO WE TRULY LOVE the TRUTH , GOD , CHRIST .
Or do we , you , me or anyone ask questions because we desire and love something else .
That may seem a heavy question but its so simple a question i could ask it to a child .
WHY do we do as we do . THAT QUESTION i ask is for believers only .
WHY do we do as we do . THE real question i ask all today is this .
AND DO NOT answer this question . PRAY ABOUT IT .
WHY would reading the bible not be joyous .
WHY can we not just enjoy it , read it , be so edified by what we read .
WHY do we truly seek , and why would we truly seek
a different answer to what we read in plain english . VERY rare and rare indeed
is this done out of genuine lack of understanding
OFTEN and mostly its done , cause what we read , CONTRADICTED what we WANTED TO BELIEVE was TRUTH .
MAN i just summed up something so simple and the very reason why we often have had
SO many different teachings . THE BIBLE IS PRETTY clearly written .
Most all places in those letters that paul wrote to churches , that peter wrote , that jude
wrote , that the gospels said , that acts said , NOT to include revelation cause that can be bit harder
but the message to the seven churches IS VERY SIMPLE .
WHY would anyone heed anyone who twists doctrine . And the answer is
THEY DIDNT WANT TO BELIEVE what was written cause it got in the way of what THEY DESIRED to beleive was the truth .
That is the case in a very very high percentage . Some have general questions . AND as i wrote
and said MOST places , NOT ALL places , in the letters are quite simple.
SO lets ask ourselves at least this question today and tonight . HOW COME I DONT READ the bible
for myself . HOW COME i dont just read the letters and enjoy them for myself .
IF one asks this and generally truly desires to know the answer , OH IT WILL BE REVEALED . and the fault wont be ON GOD
it will have been on us . WHY do we read the bible maybe one or twice
and then hardly read it again .
AND WHY does this lamb LOVE TO READ IT DAILY and have done so for hours for over eighteen years .
THE LAST SENTENCE is not to boast in me , IT IS TO SAY , THIS IS POSSIBLE . AND i know it is .
AND I KNOW i aint the ONLY ONE that loves to read that bible so . ITS LIKE when we are in it
WE can read anything , and just LOVE and EMBRACE IT . SO WHY is that so hard for the many .

@amigo de christo

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

I think that people are way too interested in their pursuit of their temporary idols that they think give them security, happiness, and comfort.

I have read the Bible cover to cover repeatedly for about the last 60 of my 82 years. Each time, the Spirit gives me new connections and applications in its great description of God, his rescue plan, and our resulting lives.

 

[Simonides]

.

 

[Simonides]

.

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

Hey Brother Bruce,
I'm trying to be respectful of your request not to get into a debate over Paul's thorn. So I'll just proceed on the assumption that you and I both know what that thorn was.

I have been blessed with excellent health most of my life. Even though I've been living with two herniated discs in my neck for decades, and an abdominal hernia for about the last 15 years. Neither of them cause too much pain.

So leaving physical ailments aside. I can't really say with Paul, that I have a thorn in my flesh. I do however, totally relate to these words of the Apostle.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Brother Simonides, I think that Paul kept the description of the "thorn in the flesh" purposely vague instead of specific to enable readers to relate it to any physical, sinful, or mental distraction that Satan will try to use to derail us from doing God's callings in this world.

Through prayer, we can claim Jesus' all-powerful victory over Satan to make us overcomers, the result being our opportunities to witness to people that he sends near us. God may not take away the "thorn," but he will enable us to grieve its presence out and to give us his peace to accept it (Philippians 4:6-7). That's what he has done with my pain, for which I am very thankful.

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

Personally I think this is what the "restraining of evil" is about.

2 Thessalonians 2:6-8 EMTV
6) And now you know that which is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.
7) For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will continue until one comes out of the midst.
8) And then the lawless one will be unveiled, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth, and will destroy by the brightness of His coming,

I think that as God works all things together for our good, anything that is not able to serve our good is restrained from us, but that when we are removed to be with Jesus, that restraint will no longer be needed and all evil works will be allowed.

Much love!

Another example of God's restraining Satan is in Job 1 and 2, where in the contest between God and Satan over Job's faith, God kept Satan from taking Job's health but then allowed Satan to take his health but not his life.

 

[Simonides]

.

 

[Verily]

What the real question that needs to be asked
is not what is the difference between the two
but rather This , DO WE TRULY LOVE the TRUTH , GOD , CHRIST .
Or do we , you , me or anyone ask questions because we desire and love something else .
That may seem a heavy question but its so simple a question i could ask it to a child .
WHY do we do as we do . THAT QUESTION i ask is for believers only .
WHY do we do as we do . THE real question i ask all today is this .
AND DO NOT answer this question . PRAY ABOUT IT .
WHY would reading the bible not be joyous .
WHY can we not just enjoy it , read it , be so edified by what we read .
WHY do we truly seek , and why would we truly seek
a different answer to what we read in plain english . VERY rare and rare indeed
is this done out of genuine lack of understanding
OFTEN and mostly its done , cause what we read , CONTRADICTED what we WANTED TO BELIEVE was TRUTH .
MAN i just summed up something so simple and the very reason why we often have had
SO many different teachings . THE BIBLE IS PRETTY clearly written .
Most all places in those letters that paul wrote to churches , that peter wrote , that jude
wrote , that the gospels said , that acts said , NOT to include revelation cause that can be bit harder
but the message to the seven churches IS VERY SIMPLE .
WHY would anyone heed anyone who twists doctrine . And the answer is
THEY DIDNT WANT TO BELIEVE what was written cause it got in the way of what THEY DESIRED to beleive was the truth .
That is the case in a very very high percentage . Some have general questions . AND as i wrote
and said MOST places , NOT ALL places , in the letters are quite simple.
SO lets ask ourselves at least this question today and tonight . HOW COME I DONT READ the bible
for myself . HOW COME i dont just read the letters and enjoy them for myself .
IF one asks this and generally truly desires to know the answer , OH IT WILL BE REVEALED . and the fault wont be ON GOD
it will have been on us . WHY do we read the bible maybe one or twice
and then hardly read it again .
AND WHY does this lamb LOVE TO READ IT DAILY and have done so for hours for over eighteen years .
THE LAST SENTENCE is not to boast in me , IT IS TO SAY , THIS IS POSSIBLE . AND i know it is .
AND I KNOW i aint the ONLY ONE that loves to read that bible so . ITS LIKE when we are in it
WE can read anything , and just LOVE and EMBRACE IT . SO WHY is that so hard for the many .

How is it that Marvelloustime always gets you but you lose me?

That was just my way of coming into the topic by asking what is the difference of A SPIRIT of infirmity in the flesh of that woman (by which Satan bound her in it) and A MESSENGER of Satan (or thorn in the flesh) of Paul. It's just the way they are both worded. Although I do know of the various interpretations out there (thorns in your sides, pricks in your eyes etc) but somewhat the same could be shown in Job. For example when Satan touched his flesh (not for its sake alone) but in doing that came with his expressed desire toward Job to curse God. So couldnt that be considered a temptation in his flesh? One delivered by Satan ( into Job's flesh) in the hopes that Job would curse God in otherwords. That also sounds very much like what Paul might say according to something similar. When he said, "the temptation" in my flesh you did not despise. I always thought, what a strange way to word it like that know what I mean?

I might not be catching that correctly, but I always come back to it time and time again.

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

I am so sorry to hear that you are presently still in pain Bruce-Leiter, I will keep you in my prayers. I have known chronic back pain for many years, the pain wore me down when I was in it. I did not get to the place of glorying in that infirmity, so you have me beat there.

I do not have that pain any longer, I just cannot sit upright anymore. When I type I do so leaning to my left side. Heat was useful in helping me with the pain. I ended up burning my back using the heating pad on high for too long for relief. I never even felt it when I burnt it. The strange thing was that after it was scarred by the heat of it I was no longer in any more pain. I am thankful to God, after all those years, it has been a welcomed relief.

God's richest blessings in Christ be yours. peace to you.

Thank you, @Verily, but since God gave me his peace about my "thorn," I have accepted it as part of my life. I am no longer "in" pain; instead, I "have" pain. There's a huge difference. Besides, God gave me the responsibility to control it and many means to do just that. I thank him!

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

You and I have much in common it would appear. I also backslid for the better part of thirty years. He pulled me out of the pit a little over two years ago. I walked so closely with Christ after my conversion, I never thought that backsliding was even possible.
But there's this thing called pride. That's what brought me down.

I now see that God providentially allowed me to go through that period of backsliding for several very important reasons.

I agree with you about perspective. If a day with the Lord is as a thousand years, then I came to Christ, fell away, wasted most of my life, and returned to my Father, all before He finished his morning coffee.

And I'm so broke right now, I can barely pay attention. But I am rich in Christ, and that's where it counts.

What kind of work are you looking for, Simonides?

 

[Simonides]

.

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

Briefly,
Paul was very clear in identifying the thorn.

So, what was it, pepper? No one seems to know except you. Why is that?

 

[Verily]

Another example of God's restraining Satan is in Job 1 and 2, where in the contest between God and Satan over Job's faith, God kept Satan from taking Job's health but then allowed Satan to take his health but not his life.

Theres another one for you, when Satan asked to touch his flesh (so that he would curse God and die) Job's wife is also Job's flesh, and ever notice at the time she come in and said, "curse God and die" to him? She would be fair game if he asked to touch his flesh because the woman is the flesh and bone of the man right? Satan worked through Eve in the garden and Adam listened to the voice of his wife (who was being deceived by the serpent) Job however corrects his wife and does not listen to her.

Here it is

Job 2:5 But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.

Job 2:6 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.

So Job was smote and the words Satan utters to the LORD come out of Job's wife's mouth after that permission

Job 2:9 Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse God, and die.

Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

Which (to me) reminds me a little of here

2 Ti 2:26 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

2 Ti 2:26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

 

[Simonides]

.

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

You are confusing the specific mission Jesus was called to versus the rest of us.

Aside from going to the Cross... Jesus never sinned and never needed the Father to save Him from sin since he never commuted any sin of His own during His entire time here on Club Earth.




Which of course is WHY Jesus never sinned when the devil was trying to get Him to sin.




Jesus never committed any sin so the Father was obligated to raise Jesus up... He experienced death (separation from the Father) for us since the penalty for sin is death

Your last statement is confusing. I believe that God the Father and the second Person of God planned Jesus' death and resurrection before creation. Under God's inspiration during Pentecost, Peter said so:
Act 2:22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know—
Act 2:23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.
Act 2:24 God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it."

 

[Simonides]

.

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

Theres another one for you, when Satan asked to touch his flesh (so that he would curse God and die) Job's wife is also Job's flesh, and ever notice at the time she come in and said, "curse God and die" to him? She would be fair game if he asked to touch his flesh because the woman is the flesh and bone of the man right? Satan worked through Eve in the garden and Adam listened to the voice of his wife (who was being deceived by the serpent) Job however corrects his wife and does not listen to her.

Here it is

Job 2:5 But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.

Job 2:6 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.

So Job was smote and the words Satan utters to the LORD come out of Job's wife's mouth after that permission

Job 2:9 Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse God, and die.

Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

Which (to me) reminds me a little of here

2 Ti 2:26 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

2 Ti 2:26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

The whole point of the Book of Job is not suffering but that true faith endures and perseveres throughout life, as it did in spite of the extreme suffering of Job.

 

[pepper]

So, what was it, pepper? No one seems to know except you. Why is that?They haven't fully read Paul's Epistles?

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

What do you mean, @pepper?

 

[pepper]

And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
— 2 Corinthians 12:7