What is YOUR "thorn in the flesh"?

[Dan Clarkston]

That's why I said,
"And we know the Father DID NOT need to save Jesus from the cross

You are confusing the specific mission Jesus was called to versus the rest of us.

Aside from going to the Cross... Jesus never sinned and never needed the Father to save Him from sin since he never commuted any sin of His own during His entire time here on Club Earth.

Jesus was not a sinner of course, he never sinned, but even Jesus was tempted in every way a normal person was yet God cannot be tempted.

Which of course is WHY Jesus never sinned when the devil was trying to get Him to sin.

Yes, but Jesus needed to be saved from Hades by God.

Jesus never committed any sin so the Father was obligated to raise Jesus up... He experienced death (separation from the Father) for us since the penalty for sin is death

 

[amigo de christo]

You are confusing the specific mission Jesus was called to versus the rest of us.

Aside from going to the Cross... Jesus never sinned and never needed the Father to save Him from sin since he never commuted any sin of His own during His entire time here on Club Earth.




Which of course is WHY Jesus never sinned when the devil was trying to get Him to sin.




Jesus never committed any sin so the Father was obligated to raise Jesus up... He experienced death (separation from the Father) for us since the penalty for sin is death

mayhaps your near and dear friend might need this reminder .
NO man takes my life from me . I HAVE THE POWER to lay it down and I HAVE the POWER to RAISE IT UP AGAIN .
You are right my friend . JESUS did not have to be saved from hades . HE WENT to hades on a mission .
He took them ol keys from he who had the power of death .
JESUS didnt have to be saved . You are right my friend . HE DID THE SAVING and did all that was necessary.
So that all who do believe on HIM would not perish but have everlasting life .
And now a reminder .
And JESUS said , I AM HE , now when he said this they all went backwards and fell down . NO MAN COULD TAKE HIS LIFE .
HIMS gave it up .
and HE raised it again . I have the POWER to lay it down and i have the POWER to raise it up again .
GOD is HIS SPIRIT , HE IS HIS WORD , His word became flesh .

 

[Dan Clarkston]

NO man takes my life from me . I HAVE THE POWER to lay it down and I HAVE the POWER to RAISE IT UP AGAIN .

For the viewing pleasure of our audience... you should start posting scripture references

 

[Verily]

The quotes arent working too well on my end. I am not following the argument, starting from the beginning

Runningman posted

Yet even Jesus needed a savior...

Hebrews 5

7Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

Verily posted

we know the Father did not need to save Jesus from the cross itself

John 12:27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

Dan Clarkston posted

Er... why would He save Jesus from the Cross???

The whole purpose of Jesus taking on flesh was for the purpose of going to the Cross

Verily replies,

Thats why I posted

"And we know the Father DID NOT need to save Jesus from the cross following that up what I said with Jesus own words, who said

John 12:27 Now is my soul troubled; and WHAT SHALL I SAY? Father, SAVE ME FROM THIS HOUR: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

Dan Clarkston replies again

You are confusing the specific mission Jesus was called to versus the rest of us.

Verily responds,

How am I confusing the specific mission Jesus was called to versus the rest of us in acknowledging the Father DID NOT need to save Jesus from the cross.

Why are you responding to me this way

Dan Clarkston posted

Er... why would He save Jesus from the Cross???

The whole purpose of Jesus taking on flesh was for the purpose of going to the Cross

Verily responds here

Where did I say otherwise?

For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham and was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death.

Dan Clarston posts

Aside from going to the Cross... Jesus never sinned

Verily responds,

I never said Jesus sinned.

1 Peter 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth

What exactly are you responding to, you seem to be going round and round over something and I cannot figure out what you are addresing as if I said something contrary somewhere.

 

[Runningman]

Jesus never committed any sin so the Father was obligated to raise Jesus up... He experienced death (separation from the Father) for us since the penalty for sin is death

Legally, Jesus had sin applied to him even though he technically never sinned (2 Cor. 5:21). He received the penalty for sin which is death as you said. But what I would add is that it wasn't just Jesus' body that died, but his soul as well. I get that from Isaiah 53:10.

 

[Marvelloustime]

mayhaps your near and dear friend might need this reminder .
NO man takes my life from me . I HAVE THE POWER to lay it down and I HAVE the POWER to RAISE IT UP AGAIN .
You are right my friend . JESUS did not have to be saved from hades . HE WENT to hades on a mission .
He took them ol keys from he who had the power of death .
JESUS didnt have to be saved . You are right my friend . HE DID THE SAVING and did all that was necessary.
So that all who do believe on HIM would not perish but have everlasting life .
And now a reminder .
And JESUS said , I AM HE , now when he said this they all went backwards and fell down . NO MAN COULD TAKE HIS LIFE .
HIMS gave it up .
and HE raised it again . I have the POWER to lay it down and i have the POWER to raise it up again .
GOD is HIS SPIRIT , HE IS HIS WORD , His word became flesh .

@amigo de christo
@Dan Clarkston
Amigo does quote scripture. But he just doesn’t quote what is the chapter, verse and book of it, if that makes sense.

 

[Marvelloustime]

For the viewing pleasure of our audience... you should start posting scripture references View attachment 52689

@amigo de christo
@Dan Clarkston

See above post from me. It wouldn’t multi quote.

 

[amigo de christo]

For the viewing pleasure of our audience... you should start posting scripture references View attachment 52689

What a lovely reminder my friend .
but do take note that chapter and verse is relatively new in comparision to for the many years
they had not chapter and verse . The point made is
that often i bring tons of scriptural reminders
the thing is many do not realize its scripture at all .
Not saying you do that but many do that .
Now why is that . I highly suspects that many are not reading their bibles much at all .
And cannot recognize scripture lest one brings chapter and verse .
But i do not have any problem at all with those who do bring both chapter and verse .
The thing is i dont have chapter and verses memeorized . By grace i just read and keep reading
the bible every day for over eighteen years .
Many do not . In fact what many do is simply read what parts of the bible they do read
through THEIR OWN Denominations interpretations . and friend , THAT HAS BEEN THE PROBLEM all along .
we got osas , we got pre trib and etc , we got hyper grace , we got prosperity gospel
we got many things that ought not to have been taught .
When men do battle they bring their own doctrinal interpreations to defend their own
denomintial teaching . This is why they cannot see and why they often will defend things NOT TRUE
as though THEY BE TRUE . My simple advice , which i have given for years , remains the same
ITS TIME this people BIBLE UP for themselves my friend .
cause the strong delusion under guise its love and of GOD has come upon this generation in raging force
to take captive all to a lie that will bring all false religoins and christendom together
AS one under who and what they all believe is GOD and his love . ONLY , IT AINT GOD or HIS LOVE .

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Legally, Jesus had sin applied to him even though he technically never sinned (2 Cor. 5:21). He received the penalty for sin which is death as you said. But what I would add is that it wasn't just Jesus' body that died, but his soul as well. I get that from Isaiah 53:10.

Yes, Jesus was separated from the Father on the Cross... He suffered in His Body and Soul.

However, He did NOT suffer when He descended to the depths of hell... when He got down there He was preaching.

Jesus never became corrupt OR suffered satan having dominion over Him in Hell as some have taught and claimed in error (see scriptures below)

Acts 2:27 (see Psalm 16:10)
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption

1 Peter 3:19
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Romans 6:9
Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over Him.
For in that He died, he died unto sin once: but in that He liveth, He liveth unto God.

Apparently “death has no more dominion over Him” speaks to Jesus having been under the dominion of death (being separated from God) during His death at the Cross which would have to have been more than just physical death since Hebrews 2:9 specifically says Jesus suffered death.

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

What do all these posts have to do with my original post asking you folks what your thorn in the flesh is? Mine is four kinds of physical chronic pain that God has used but didn't cause to keep me humble first as a pastor and now as an author.

 

[Verily]

What is the difference between a spirit of infirmity and a messenger of satan (called a thorn in the flesh)

Luke 13:11 And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself.

Luke 13:12 And when Jesus saw her, he called her to him, and said unto her, Woman, thou art loosed from thine infirmity.

Then Paul

2 Cr 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Whereas Jesus loosed the woman from this spirit of infirmity, Paul said,

2 Cr 12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

2 Cr 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

2 Cr 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

I think I heard them all, but there does seem to be similarities between them.

Oh, and my back

 

[pepper]

I don't want any speculation about the nature of Paul's "thorn in the flesh." Other threads do that kind of discussion. Finding out what it was is not my interest, but sharing our experiences with weaknesses is.

Mine is physical pain, four kinds, that started 38 years ago the third Friday in March. It developed at the very depth of my seven years of major depression, from which God has delivered me for more than three decades now.

God has said "no" to my many requests to take away my pain but has given me his grace to control it, be at peace about it, and remain effective in many years of preaching and teaching his Word in churches and of writing books to honor him.

The result is that he has humbled me, using Satan's attacks, to depend on him, especially in dependent prayer, so that I can testify clearly and honestly what Paul says, "When I am weak, I am strong" (2 Corinthians 12:10).

How has God used his grace to enable you to deal with your "thorn in the flesh"?

Briefly,
Paul was very clear in identifying the thorn.

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

That's pretty funny.... some thinking the Lord is working with satan to keep people "humble" View attachment 51960

No, Satan is acting independently yet with limitations to attack God's people, but God overcomes his attacks for their good. Let's keep it biblically straight.

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

What is the difference between a spirit of infirmity and a messenger of satan (called a thorn in the flesh)

Luke 13:11 And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself.

Luke 13:12 And when Jesus saw her, he called her to him, and said unto her, Woman, thou art loosed from thine infirmity.

Then Paul

2 Cr 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Whereas Jesus loosed the woman from this spirit of infirmity, Paul said,

2 Cr 12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

2 Cr 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

2 Cr 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

I think I heard them all, but there does seem to be similarities between them.

Oh, and my back

I empathize with your infirmity. For some Christians, God removes their thorn through prayer and maybe medical means. For others, he gives us strength to bear up under it, thus learning many lessons. For me, it's four kinds of chronic physical pain, with which God has taught me to be much more prayerful and dependent on his power for my writing ministry.

 

[marks]

No, Satan is acting independently yet with limitations to attack God's people, but God overcomes his attacks for their good. Let's keep it biblically straight.

Personally I think this is what the "restraining of evil" is about.

2 Thessalonians 2:6-8 EMTV
6) And now you know that which is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.
7) For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will continue until one comes out of the midst.
8) And then the lawless one will be unveiled, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth, and will destroy by the brightness of His coming,

I think that as God works all things together for our good, anything that is not able to serve our good is restrained from us, but that when we are removed to be with Jesus, that restraint will no longer be needed and all evil works will be allowed.

Much love!

 

[Verily]

I empathize with your infirmity. For some Christians, God removes their thorn through prayer and maybe medical means. For others, he gives us strength to bear up under it, thus learning many lessons. For me, it's four kinds of chronic physical pain, with which God has taught me to be much more prayerful and dependent on his power for my writing ministry.

I am so sorry to hear that you are presently still in pain Bruce-Leiter, I will keep you in my prayers. I have known chronic back pain for many years, the pain wore me down when I was in it. I did not get to the place of glorying in that infirmity, so you have me beat there.

I do not have that pain any longer, I just cannot sit upright anymore. When I type I do so leaning to my left side. Heat was useful in helping me with the pain. I ended up burning my back using the heating pad on high for too long for relief. I never even felt it when I burnt it. The strange thing was that after it was scarred by the heat of it I was no longer in any more pain. I am thankful to God, after all those years, it has been a welcomed relief.

God's richest blessings in Christ be yours. peace to you.

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

I am so sorry to hear that you are presently still in pain Bruce-Leiter, I will keep you in my prayers. I have known chronic back pain for many years, the pain wore me down when I was in it. I did not get to the place of glorying in that infirmity, so you have me beat there.

I do not have that pain any longer, I just cannot sit upright anymore. When I type I do so leaning to my left side. Heat was useful in helping me with the pain. I ended up burning my back using the heating pad on high for too long for relief. I never even felt it when I burnt it. The strange thing was that after it was scarred by the heat of it I was no longer in any more pain. I am thankful to God, after all those years, it has been a welcomed relief.

God's richest blessings in Christ be yours. peace to you.

Hi, Verily! Thirteen years into my pain, which arrived the third Friday of March, 1986, I began getting tired like my fatigue when I had seven years of major depression, from which God completely healed me for 38 years now.

So, I asked God, who is my divine Shrink, "What am I getting depressed about now?"

A strong idea popped into my brain, "It's your pain."

Well, God had used a biblical pattern that isn't in our culture to heal my depression, the lament of David, Job, Jeremiah, and others, so I poured out my true feelings of anger that God had allowed, not caused, pain in my body. He came close to me during that time. It took 60 laments over two months for me to receive God's gift of the peace of Philippians 4:6-7, the way he had given it to me to end my depression.

God has given me many lessons through pain. He has humbled me the way he did for Paul, so that I am completely dependent on him for the words to speak when I was a pastor and now the words to write as an author. He's also given me ways to control it.

 

[Verily]

Hi, Verily! Thirteen years into my pain, which arrived the third Friday of March, 1986, I began getting tired like my fatigue when I had seven years of major depression, from which God completely healed me for 38 years now.

So, I asked God, who is my divine Shrink, "What am I getting depressed about now?"

A strong idea popped into my brain, "It's your pain."

Well, God had used a biblical pattern that isn't in our culture to heal my depression, the lament of David, Job, Jeremiah, and others, so I poured out my true feelings of anger that God had allowed, not caused, pain in my body. He came close to me during that time. It took 60 laments over two months for me to receive God's gift of the peace of Philippians 4:6-7, the way he had given it to me to end my depression.

God has given me many lessons through pain. He has humbled me the way he did for Paul, so that I am completely dependent on him for the words to speak when I was a pastor and now the words to write as an author. He's also given me ways to control it.

I might be sounding a bit unspiritual over here Bruce-Leiter but I do not recall learning anything from that sort of pain except that it hurt alot for a long time and wore me down. If I figure out what I learned above sympathizing with those who are in pain I will let you know.

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

I might be sounding a bit unspiritual over here Bruce-Leiter but I do not recall learning anything from that sort of pain except that it hurt alot for a long time and wore me down. If I figure out what I learned above sympathizing with those who are in pain I will let you know.

Yes, God did teach me to sympathize with others a lot more through my pain.

 

[amigo de christo]

What is the difference between a spirit of infirmity and a messenger of satan (called a thorn in the flesh)

Luke 13:11 And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself.

Luke 13:12 And when Jesus saw her, he called her to him, and said unto her, Woman, thou art loosed from thine infirmity.

Then Paul

2 Cr 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Whereas Jesus loosed the woman from this spirit of infirmity, Paul said,

2 Cr 12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

2 Cr 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

2 Cr 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

I think I heard them all, but there does seem to be similarities between them.

Oh, and my back

What the real question that needs to be asked
is not what is the difference between the two
but rather This , DO WE TRULY LOVE the TRUTH , GOD , CHRIST .
Or do we , you , me or anyone ask questions because we desire and love something else .
That may seem a heavy question but its so simple a question i could ask it to a child .
WHY do we do as we do . THAT QUESTION i ask is for believers only .
WHY do we do as we do . THE real question i ask all today is this .
AND DO NOT answer this question . PRAY ABOUT IT .
WHY would reading the bible not be joyous .
WHY can we not just enjoy it , read it , be so edified by what we read .
WHY do we truly seek , and why would we truly seek
a different answer to what we read in plain english . VERY rare and rare indeed
is this done out of genuine lack of understanding
OFTEN and mostly its done , cause what we read , CONTRADICTED what we WANTED TO BELIEVE was TRUTH .
MAN i just summed up something so simple and the very reason why we often have had
SO many different teachings . THE BIBLE IS PRETTY clearly written .
Most all places in those letters that paul wrote to churches , that peter wrote , that jude
wrote , that the gospels said , that acts said , NOT to include revelation cause that can be bit harder
but the message to the seven churches IS VERY SIMPLE .
WHY would anyone heed anyone who twists doctrine . And the answer is
THEY DIDNT WANT TO BELIEVE what was written cause it got in the way of what THEY DESIRED to beleive was the truth .
That is the case in a very very high percentage . Some have general questions . AND as i wrote
and said MOST places , NOT ALL places , in the letters are quite simple.
SO lets ask ourselves at least this question today and tonight . HOW COME I DONT READ the bible
for myself . HOW COME i dont just read the letters and enjoy them for myself .
IF one asks this and generally truly desires to know the answer , OH IT WILL BE REVEALED . and the fault wont be ON GOD
it will have been on us . WHY do we read the bible maybe one or twice
and then hardly read it again .
AND WHY does this lamb LOVE TO READ IT DAILY and have done so for hours for over eighteen years .
THE LAST SENTENCE is not to boast in me , IT IS TO SAY , THIS IS POSSIBLE . AND i know it is .
AND I KNOW i aint the ONLY ONE that loves to read that bible so . ITS LIKE when we are in it
WE can read anything , and just LOVE and EMBRACE IT . SO WHY is that so hard for the many .