What is the purpose of infant baptism?

[Truther]

The fact that the pope praying and a figure of the Virgin Mary are in the same photograph doesn't mean the Catholics worship the Virgin Mary.

I used to pray to her statue every week. I know all about worshiping Mary. I think praying to a statue is a form of worship.

 

[Truther]

Anyone who kneels before a statue is worshiping the statue. We don’t kneel before each other when we converse or ask each other to do favors.

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

The Douay Rheims (Catholic bible) is the bible that teaches

"Born again ... BY water"...

So, that is baptismal regeneration, that is the Catholic Teaching.

No, it is not. Water and spirit are never separated in Scripture regarding baptism. Nowhere. Not in any Bible. The funnymentalist disdain for anything physical (i.e. water) denies the Incarnation Principle. You do it automatically without thinking.

Now, here is the thing..
If people want to have their babies baptized in water, then good.... or whatever...
But, once a cult teaches that this is "saving them" or "causing them to become a "Christian", then that lie is up and running.

Then Martin Luther must have been a cult leader, according to you. He taught baptismal regeneration, Calvin did not. They both professed "sola scriptura" with radically different viewpoints. I accept what has been consistently handed down for 2000 years. You accept whatever you choose. That's theological relativism.

How do you know its a lie to teach that babies can be Saved?, by water or at all?

Jesus said , "...water AND spirit..." John 3:5. It's not that hard to understand, we accept on faith what we don't understand. You don't have enough faith (yet) to believe that physical matter (outward signs) can convey (inward) grace, yet Scripture is loaded with such instances.

Its because God saves us, through Christ..... and He requires that a person TRUSTS in CHRIST.

You have to give God you FAITH in Christ..

So, a baby, can't even think yet... so, they can't TRUST in Christ or Trust in anything, therefore they can't be born again.
And obviously the parents can't "trust in Christ" for the baby...= (face-palm).

Because you deny the reality of Original Sin, explicitly expressed in Romans 5. Most Protestants don't follow fad theology that denies Original Sin.

To Explain Infant Baptism You Must Explain Original Sin

The Church’s teaching on infant baptism flows from the Church’s teachings on original sin and the sacrament of baptism. Click here for an explanation.

www.catholic.com

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

The fact that the pope praying and a figure of the Virgin Mary are in the same photograph doesn't mean the Catholics worship the Virgin Mary.

Photos don't show the veneration given to the prototype (a person in heaven with God), so photos make for a handy whip for shallow, ignorant anti-Catholics to scourge Catholics with.

Do Catholics Worship Statues?

Do Catholics violate God's prohibition of idolatry by worshiping statues? We put this bogus claim to rest once and for all.

www.catholic.com

 

[Bob Estey]

I used to pray to her statue every week. I know all about worshiping Mary. I think praying to a statue is a form of worship.

I don't know much about the Catholic faith, but I have to believe the Catholics differentiate between God and the Virgin Mary, and I have to believe they understand the Virgin Mary's limits.

 

[Truther]

I don't know much about the Catholic faith, but I have to believe the Catholics differentiate between God and the Virgin Mary, and I have to believe they understand the Virgin Mary's limits.

They make her an equal to Jesus.

This means we worshipped her along with her son.

 

[Truther]

I must admit I robbed God(Mary) a few times. Us kids would bow to her and her lit candles, and a little box with offerings was at her feet. We would cross the railing and snag some of her moolah for candy and odd rods. Had to watch out for the priest though. He would have rung our bells …lol.

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

I used to pray to her statue every week.

Then you were committing a sin.

I know all about worshiping Mary.

No, you don't. Now you are blaming the CC for your sinfulness.

I think praying to a statue is a form of worship.

I think you are a victim of propaganda, not what the Church actually teaches. Praying before a statue is not praying to a statue. You keep using the same repeat, repeat, repeat tactics used by advertisers and politicians. Worse, you are too proud to be corrected so you remain a slave on the "Mary worship" bandwagon.

 

[Bob Estey]

They make her an equal to Jesus.

This means we worshipped her along with her son.

Do they believed she died on the cross to save us from our sins?

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

I don't know much about the Catholic faith, but I have to believe the Catholics differentiate between God and the Virgin Mary, and I have to believe they understand the Virgin Mary's limits.

Thank you for the vote of confidence. Mary can't do anything without God. She is a creature, a human. Any devotion to Mary that does not lead or point to Jesus is a false devotion. All her glory in heaven comes from Christ, as the moon reflects the light of the sun. The Lord's phrase, "I will share My glory with no one" has nothing to do with Mary because she is reflecting, not sharing, the latria that belongs to God alone.

Why Do Catholics Venerate Mary? A Comprehensive Overview - Clarifying Catholicism

Reading Time: 29 minutes By Rachel Hamilton, Franciscan University As a former skeptic myself, I certainly understand the concern over how highly Catholics exalt Mary. If you clicked on this article, you likely are brimming with questions such as: 1. How is viewing Mary as more “immaculate” and...

clarifyingcatholicism.org

Truther never asks sincere questions, he propagates with the same lie over and over again. This tactic only works on people who don't know better, or it may compel sincere inquirers to research reliable sources. Beware of imitations.

 

[Truther]

Then you were committing a sin.

No, you don't. Now you are blaming the CC for your sinfulness.

I think you are a victim of propaganda, not what the Church actually teaches. Praying before a statue is not praying to a statue. You keep using the same repeat, repeat, repeat tactics used by advertisers and politicians. Worse, you are too proud to be corrected so you remain a slave on the "Mary worship" bandwagon.

Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee Blessed Art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus holy Mary mother of God pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death amen… I did it so many thousands of times it stuck in my head some 50 years later.

That’s worship from the rosary

 

[Truther]

Hail Mary is the equivalent to Heil Hitler as far as worship is compared.

 

[Truther]

Thank you for the vote of confidence. Mary can't do anything without God. She is a creature, a human.

Why Do Catholics Venerate Mary? A Comprehensive Overview - Clarifying Catholicism

Reading Time: 29 minutes By Rachel Hamilton, Franciscan University As a former skeptic myself, I certainly understand the concern over how highly Catholics exalt Mary. If you clicked on this article, you likely are brimming with questions such as: 1. How is viewing Mary as more “immaculate” and...

clarifyingcatholicism.org

Truther never asks sincere questions, he propagates.

So are you admitting that Mary is also a mediator? Is she mediated to prior or after Jesus?

Asking Mary to pray for us sinners is not mediation?

Have you ever asked Jesus pray for us sinners?

If so, who did you ask first, Mary or Jesus? If you ask one then had to ask the other, you doubt the first one.

 

[Truther]

Do they believed she died on the cross to save us from our sins?

No, they believe that she tells her son what to do in heaven. She can also forgive sins according to the Roman Catholic Church. As a matter of fact, you can bypass Jesus altogether and just pray to Mary. The rosary beads we used to pray to did not have a prayer to Jesus that I can remember. Just Mary and the father of Jesus.

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

An evangelical Protestant asked me: “Could you find me a definition and word etymology of latria and dulia?”

Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church (2nd ed., edited by F. L. Cross & E. A. Livingstone, Oxford Univ. Press, 1983, p. 430, “Dulia” – italics added, here and below):

(Latinized form of Greek douleia, ‘service’). The reverence which, according to Orthodox and RC theology, may be paid to the saints, as contrasted with hyperdulia, which may be paid only to the Blessed Virgin Mary, and latria (Gk., latreia), which is reserved for God alone. In classical as contrasted with ecclesiastical usage douleia is a stronger term than latreia.

This is consistent with the Catholic understanding. This dictionary goes on to define latria as follows (p. 803):

As contrasted with dulia, that fullness of Divine worship which may be paid to God alone.

The standard non-Catholic lexical reference Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (eds. Gerard Kittel & Gerhard Friedrich; abridged edition by Geoffrey Bromiley, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1985) concurs:

The Word Group among the Greeks [doulos and cognates] . . . the group has no religious significance for the Greeks . . . The worshipper is philos rather than doulos, so that it makes no sense to describe service of the gods, or life under the eyes of the gods, as douleia. (p. 183)

Likewise, for latreia:

In Nonbiblical Greek. . . has such connotations as ‘service for reward,’ ‘labor,’ ‘bodily care,’ and ‘service to the gods.’ (p. 503)

Douleia can also be located in Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, in volume 1, p. 139, under “Bondage,” and latreia in volume 3, p. 349, under “Service, Serving.”

Douleia is Strong’s word #1397. It appears five times in the New Testament, and is translated “bondage” in the KJV (Rom 8:15,21; Gal 4:24, 5:1; Heb 2:15: none referring to God). It is related to the following cognates:

#1398 douleuo “to be a slave” 25 times in NT
#1399 doule “handmaiden” / “female slave” 3 times, including Mary’s description of herself: Lk 1:38,48
#1400 / 1401 doulon / doulos “servant” / “slave” 127 times
#1402 douloo: “make a servant” 8 times

Latreia is Strong’s word #2999. It appears 5 times in the New Testament, and is translated “service” or “divine service” in the KJV — in reference to God (Jn 16:2; Rom 9:4, 12:1; Heb 9:1,6). It is related to cognate latreuo, Strong’s word #3000, usually rendered “serve” or “service.” It appears 21 times in the New Testament.

So, as usual, so-called exclusively “Catholic” words are found to have a completely biblical basis, and to follow the distinction even present in the pre-biblical Greek etymology, since the Latin dulia and latria are directly derived from the Greek.

Mariolatry?: Is Mary Actually Worshiped By Catholics?

The distinction between "latria" and "dulia" in Catholicism is the difference between adoration / worship and veneration of Mary. It's NOT Mariolatry.

www.patheos.com

 

[RedFan]

Okay, you don’t know the name of the son per Matt 28:19. I get it.

Do you think Peter, who was there at Matt 28, may have figured it out when he commanded folks to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins?

Or, should Peter have took your position and tell them to be baptized in the name of the son instead of Jesus Christ?

You actually don't get it. I know the name of the son. So do you, and everyone else. It's JESUS. The disciples who were present could have had no doubt about it, if Matt 28:19 is a accurate quote of His words. (And that is a pretty big "if" -- a subject for another day.)

Since both expressions refer to the same person, baptizing in the name of the Son and baptizing in the name of Jesus Christ are equivalent.

 

[Bob Estey]

No, they believe that she tells her son what to do in heaven. She can also forgive sins according to the Roman Catholic Church. As a matter of fact, you can bypass Jesus altogether and just pray to Mary. The rosary beads we used to pray to did not have a prayer to Jesus that I can remember. Just Mary and the father of Jesus.

I have trouble believing the Catholic Church believes Mary rules over Jesus. Maybe one or two believe that.

 

[Truther]

An evangelical Protestant asked me: “Could you find me a definition and word etymology of latria and dulia?”

Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church (2nd ed., edited by F. L. Cross & E. A. Livingstone, Oxford Univ. Press, 1983, p. 430, “Dulia” – italics added, here and below):


This is consistent with the Catholic understanding. This dictionary goes on to define latria as follows (p. 803):


The standard non-Catholic lexical reference Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (eds. Gerard Kittel & Gerhard Friedrich; abridged edition by Geoffrey Bromiley, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1985) concurs:


Likewise, for latreia:


Douleia can also be located in Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, in volume 1, p. 139, under “Bondage,” and latreia in volume 3, p. 349, under “Service, Serving.”

Douleia is Strong’s word #1397. It appears five times in the New Testament, and is translated “bondage” in the KJV (Rom 8:15,21; Gal 4:24, 5:1; Heb 2:15: none referring to God). It is related to the following cognates:


Latreia is Strong’s word #2999. It appears 5 times in the New Testament, and is translated “service” or “divine service” in the KJV — in reference to God (Jn 16:2; Rom 9:4, 12:1; Heb 9:1,6). It is related to cognate latreuo, Strong’s word #3000, usually rendered “serve” or “service.” It appears 21 times in the New Testament.

So, as usual, so-called exclusively “Catholic” words are found to have a completely biblical basis, and to follow the distinction even present in the pre-biblical Greek etymology, since the Latin dulia and latria are directly derived from the Greek.

Mariolatry?: Is Mary Actually Worshiped By Catholics?

The distinction between "latria" and "dulia" in Catholicism is the difference between adoration / worship and veneration of Mary. It's NOT Mariolatry.

www.patheos.com

Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

[Truther]

You actually don't get it. I know the name of the son. So do you, and everyone else. It's JESUS. The disciples who were present could have had no doubt about it, if Matt 28:19 is a accurate quote of His words. (And that is a pretty big "if" -- a subject for another day.)

Since both expressions refer to the same person, baptizing in the name of the Son and baptizing in the name of Jesus Christ are equivalent.

Excellent assessment.

So why don’t you baptize in the name of Jesus?

You just understood what Peter did in Acts 2,8 and 10.

 

[Truther]

I have trouble believing the Catholic Church believes Mary rules over Jesus. Maybe one or two believe that.

The proof is in the pudding. We recite Mary’s prayers over and over again on the rosary bead but not a single prayer to Jesus. We pray for Mary to forgive us. Not a peep towards Jesus. They all do that. I did it.