What is the purpose of infant baptism?

[RedFan]

My mission here has never been about “convincing” anybody of anything.
It is about exposing anti-Catholic LIES.

I don’t have a problem with people who disagree with Catholic teaching.
However – I have NO tolerance for LIARS and I will expose them every chance I get.

If this upsets you – then don’t LIE – and don’t read my posts

What, in your mind, distinguishes "people who disagree with Catholic teaching" from "liars?"

 

[Truther]

That wasn't what I was referring to.

With regard to the Sacrament of Confession, since you brought it up, Jesus established that in John 20:19-23.

On the evening of that first day of the week, when the doors were locked, where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, “Peace be with you.” When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. The disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”

First, let's establish who it was Jesus was talking to. The Apostles, in the upper room.

Second, note that Jesus told the Apostles, "As the Father has sent Me, so I send you." How did the Father send Jesus? With ALL heavenly authority, INCLUDING the authority to forgive sins!

Third, Jesus (God) "breathed" on them. Only two times in the entire Bible did God "breathe" on man. Once in Genesis, when He created Adam, and once here. This signifies something very key going on,.

Finally, Jesus tells the Apostles, "Whose sins YOU forgive, ARE forgiven them, and whose sins YOU retain are retained."

Jesus delegated His Godly authority to forgive sins to the heirarchy of His Church. And it doesn't matter if you're in a box or face to face or outside. Authority is authority.

The sad thing is, you were never taught this, or never understood it. What a tremendous gift from Our Lord you are missing out on!

It says to confess our faults one to another, not to confess our sins to a priest. Jesus is our confessor. Everything the Catholic church is distortion.

 

[RedFan]

It says to confess our faults one to another, not to confess our sins to a priest. Jesus is our confessor.

Which is it, then? To "one another," or to "Jesus?"

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

What, in your mind, distinguishes "people who disagree with Catholic teaching" from "liars?"

Generally speaking, people who merely disagree are not liars. The pope welcomes disagreement because it pushes people to search for the truth via meaningful dialogue on complex matters.

Liars are easy to spot, they repeat the same inflammatory rhetoric borrowed from fundamentalists and made-in-America Bible communities. Then, these liars resort to the same tactics used by Joseph Geobbles, Hitler's Minister of Propaganda: repeat, repeat, repeat.
Today's Lavrovism is the denial that Jesus Himself gave the power to forgive sins to the Apostles. John 20:19-23.
This weeks' Lavrovism is "Mary worship"
A few days ago it was "praying to statues".
Then there is the inevitable "call no man father" canard, almost a weekly feature.
Liars repeat, repeat, repeat, unaware this tactic can backfire, fooling only this with no prior knowledge.

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

It says to confess our faults one to another, not to confess our sins to a priest. Jesus is our confessor. Everything the Catholic church is distortion.

John 20:23 – Jesus says, “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven. If you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” In order for the apostles to exercise this gift of forgiving sins, the penitents must orally confess their sins to them because the apostles are not mind readers. The text makes this very clear.

Matt. 9:8 – this verse shows that God has given the authority to forgive sins to “men.” Hence, those Protestants who acknowledge that the apostles had the authority to forgive sins (which this verse demonstrates) must prove that this gift ended with the apostles. Otherwise, the apostles’ successors still possess this gift. Where in Scripture is the gift of authority to forgive sins taken away from the apostles or their successors? NOWHERE, it's a man made tradition.

Matt. 9:6; Mark 2:10 – Christ forgave sins as a man (not God) to convince us that the “Son of man” has authority to forgive sins on earth.

Luke 5:24 – Luke also points out that Jesus’ authority to forgive sins is as a man, not God. The Gospel writers record this to convince us that God has given this authority to men. This authority has been transferred from Christ to the apostles and their successors.

Matt. 18:18 – the apostles are given authority to bind and loose. The authority to bind and loose includes administering and removing the temporal penalties due to sin. The Jews understood this since the birth of the Church.

2 Cor. 2:10 – Paul forgives in the presence of Christ (some translations refer to the presences of Christ as “in persona Christi”). Some say that this may also be a reference to sins.
2 Cor. 5:18 – the ministry of reconciliation was given to the ambassadors of the Church. This ministry of reconciliation refers to the sacrament of reconciliation, also called the sacrament of confession or penance.

James 5:15-16 – in verse 15 we see that sins are forgiven by the priests in the sacrament of the sick. This is another example of man’s authority to forgive sins on earth. Then in verse 16, James says “Therefore, confess our sins to one another,” in reference to the men referred to in verse 15, the priests of the Church.

1 Tim. 2:5 – Christ is the only mediator, but He was free to decide how His mediation would be applied to us. The Lord chose to use priests of God to carry out His work of forgiveness.

Lev. 5:4-6; 19:21-22 – even under the Old Covenant, God used priests to forgive and atone for the sins of others.

James 5:16 – James clearly teaches us that we must “confess our sins to one another,” not just privately to God. James 5:16 must be read in the context of James 5:14-15, which is referring to the healing power (both physical and spiritual) of the priests of the Church. Hence, when James says “therefore” in verse 16, he must be referring to the men he was writing about in verses 14 and 15 – these men are the ordained priests of the Church, to whom we must confess our sins.

Acts 19:18 – many came to orally confess sins and divulge their sinful practices. Oral confession was the practice of the early Church just as it is today.

SACRAMENT OF CONFESSION & FORGIVENESS OF SINS - Scripture Catholic

Contents1 Scripture1.1 I. Jesus Christ Granted the Apostles His Authority to Forgive Sins1.2 II. The Necessity and Practice of Orally Confessing Sins2 Tradition / Church Fathers2.1 I. The Early Church’s Practice of Oral Confession Scripture I. Jesus Christ Granted the Apostles His Authority to...

www.scripturecatholic.com

Since Truther agrees with the unbiblical abolishment of the NT Priesthood, nobody expects him to confess sins to a priest.
He can go directly to God, that's fine, but he doesn't understand the healing power of the words of absolution, heard from a representative of the whole Church. It's a shower for the soul, not a torture chamber of guilt and shame. It's a gift from God, not the priest! And it's not the sacrilegious garbage portrayed in movies.
Once a month is a healthy balance, once a year is the only requirement..
The Sacrament of Reconciliation makes us absolutely right with God that no words can describe. It's no paint job.

 

[Fred J]

The 500 witnessaes were all Catholics.
Catholics wrote, compiled and declated the Canon of Scripture in 382 AD at the Council of Rome.

Dear readers, like brother like sister sect, even islam tend to claim they were muslims, if given a chance.

 

[Truther]

Which is it, then? To "one another," or to "Jesus?"

Please don’t pretend you’re ignorant to this question. Confessing your faults and confessing your sins to another human being is way different. You can’t handle somebody’s sins. It would overwhelm you to hear their details. Only God can deal with that. But if I tell you that I am, a simple person that has the same struggles that is confessing faults. All that’s doing is being real and humble. You know that.

 

[Truther]

John 20:23 – Jesus says, “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven. If you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” In order for the apostles to exercise this gift of forgiving sins, the penitents must orally confess their sins to them because the apostles are not mind readers. The text makes this very clear.

Matt. 9:8 – this verse shows that God has given the authority to forgive sins to “men.” Hence, those Protestants who acknowledge that the apostles had the authority to forgive sins (which this verse demonstrates) must prove that this gift ended with the apostles. Otherwise, the apostles’ successors still possess this gift. Where in Scripture is the gift of authority to forgive sins taken away from the apostles or their successors? NOWHERE, it's a man made tradition.

Matt. 9:6; Mark 2:10 – Christ forgave sins as a man (not God) to convince us that the “Son of man” has authority to forgive sins on earth.

Luke 5:24 – Luke also points out that Jesus’ authority to forgive sins is as a man, not God. The Gospel writers record this to convince us that God has given this authority to men. This authority has been transferred from Christ to the apostles and their successors.

Matt. 18:18 – the apostles are given authority to bind and loose. The authority to bind and loose includes administering and removing the temporal penalties due to sin. The Jews understood this since the birth of the Church.

2 Cor. 2:10 – Paul forgives in the presence of Christ (some translations refer to the presences of Christ as “in persona Christi”). Some say that this may also be a reference to sins.
2 Cor. 5:18 – the ministry of reconciliation was given to the ambassadors of the Church. This ministry of reconciliation refers to the sacrament of reconciliation, also called the sacrament of confession or penance.

James 5:15-16 – in verse 15 we see that sins are forgiven by the priests in the sacrament of the sick. This is another example of man’s authority to forgive sins on earth. Then in verse 16, James says “Therefore, confess our sins to one another,” in reference to the men referred to in verse 15, the priests of the Church.

1 Tim. 2:5 – Christ is the only mediator, but He was free to decide how His mediation would be applied to us. The Lord chose to use priests of God to carry out His work of forgiveness.

Lev. 5:4-6; 19:21-22 – even under the Old Covenant, God used priests to forgive and atone for the sins of others.

James 5:16 – James clearly teaches us that we must “confess our sins to one another,” not just privately to God. James 5:16 must be read in the context of James 5:14-15, which is referring to the healing power (both physical and spiritual) of the priests of the Church. Hence, when James says “therefore” in verse 16, he must be referring to the men he was writing about in verses 14 and 15 – these men are the ordained priests of the Church, to whom we must confess our sins.

Acts 19:18 – many came to orally confess sins and divulge their sinful practices. Oral confession was the practice of the early Church just as it is today.

SACRAMENT OF CONFESSION & FORGIVENESS OF SINS - Scripture Catholic

Contents1 Scripture1.1 I. Jesus Christ Granted the Apostles His Authority to Forgive Sins1.2 II. The Necessity and Practice of Orally Confessing Sins2 Tradition / Church Fathers2.1 I. The Early Church’s Practice of Oral Confession Scripture I. Jesus Christ Granted the Apostles His Authority to...

www.scripturecatholic.com

Since Truther agrees with the unbiblical abolishment of the NT Priesthood, nobody expects him to confess sins.

Forgiving sins and remission of sins in your opening statement is by being baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins. Thanks for showing the group how to get your sins remitted. It’s not by begging somebody to forgive you.

 

[Truther]

I can see it now, “heck with Jesus… Oh Catholic priest, please forgive my sins that I committed against God”… lol

 

[Truther]

9 If we confess our sins(to our local priest), he(our local priest)is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

Or

9 If we confess our sins(to Jesus), he(Jesus) is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.


Pick one.

 

[Truther]

For there is one God and one mediator(the local priest )between God and man, the (local priest).

Or

For there is one God and one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus.

Pick one of the 2 mediators.

 

[Fred J]

Your post is a false witness of the 500 true witnesses. There was no such thing as the Roman Catholic Church in the first century.

Basically the Roman catholic church mix with paganism apparently founded by Constantine towards his last twisted year. Where he martyred many Christians who would not submit to nor follow his pagan form of christianity, compared to unbelievers refused to become Christians.

After his death, the papacy are his successors who formed the Roman catholic church taking the West of Rome. At the same time, is divided with another successor in the same era, the Roman greek orthodox church taking the East of Byzantine.

The Roman cathoilc church was able to take over the whole of Rome when the Roman greek orthodox church were forced to flee to Russia.

 

[Truther]

Basically the Roman catholic church mix with paganism apparently founded by Constantine towards his last twisted year. Where he martyred many Christians who would not submit to nor follow his pagan form of christianity, compared to unbelievers refused to become Christians.

After his death, the papacy are his successors who formed the Roman catholic church taking the West of Rome. At the same time, is divided with another successor in the same era, the Roman greek orthodox church taking the East of Byzantine.

The Roman cathoilc church was able to take over the whole of Rome when the Roman greek orthodox church were forced to flee to Russia.

Excellent post. The Roman Catholic Church eventually became the ecumenical fourth kingdom written in Daniel chapter 2. It is also known as the great whore in the book of Revelation chapter 18.

 

[Fred J]

Excellent post. The Roman Catholic Church eventually became the ecumenical fourth kingdom written in Daniel chapter 2. It is also known as the great whore in the book of Revelation chapter 18.

Exactly, please take note that others are referred to as beasts of the field and sea, nations of people, but only one is a woman and a whore. Because she is in union and have close relationship and ties with all religious and political figures and nations in the world. She rides on the beast, the anti-Christ, when worldwide all Bible believing and not yielding to his requirements and order Christians, will be persecuted.

She is drunk with the cup of wine, elated that she has taken the blood of all the martyrs whom she name 'heretics'. Those tortured and who's blood drawn, martyrs since ancient time to the martyrs in the time of anti-Christ. But shame on her, she will be toppled by the very anti-Christ himself, as the beast will toss her off it's back.

She claim to be the Christ figure on earth and for the world, but apparently the false messiahs, teachers and prophets Jesus predicted. Whom shall arise after Him, but rather at the end of their or her glory, they all become shipwrecked and decay.

For the record, she is iron, but the forth kingdom is of 'iron' mixed with 'clay'. She is 'iron', who will partner with another nation of 'clay', who's political figure will be the anti-Christ.

 

[RedFan]

Please don’t pretend you’re ignorant to this question. Confessing your faults and confessing your sins to another human being is way different. You can’t handle somebody’s sins. It would overwhelm you to hear their details. Only God can deal with that. But if I tell you that I am, a simple person that has the same struggles that is confessing faults. All that’s doing is being real and humble. You know that.

What I know is that you said we are to confess our faults to each other. If Jesus is the confessor, why would we confess our faults to anyone else? That's my question of you. If you think sins are not faults, just say so.

 

[Augustin56]

Basically the Roman catholic church mix with paganism apparently founded by Constantine towards his last twisted year. Where he martyred many Christians who would not submit to nor follow his pagan form of christianity, compared to unbelievers refused to become Christians.

After his death, the papacy are his successors who formed the Roman catholic church taking the West of Rome. At the same time, is divided with another successor in the same era, the Roman greek orthodox church taking the East of Byzantine.

The Roman cathoilc church was able to take over the whole of Rome when the Roman greek orthodox church were forced to flee to Russia.

Fred J,

Nothing could be further from the truth. Constantine didn't found the Catholic Church, Jesus Christ did. Constantine stopped persecution of the Church by the Roman Empire. If you think Jesus mixed paganism in with His teachings then take it up with Him.

St. Ignatius of Antioch, the bishop of Antioch ordained by St. Peter, was captured by the Romans. While they were transporting him to be martyred for the faith, he wrote a letter to the Smyrnaeans around 107-110 A.D., referring to the "Catholic Church," not in such a manner as if he were coining the term, but in such a manner in which he fully expected the Smyrnaeans to understand what he was talking about.
It says in paragraph 8, "Where the bishop is present, there let the congregation gather, just as where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."

See the entire letter here: https://www.orderofstignatius.org/files/Letters/Ignatius_to_Smyrnaeans.pdf

 

[Augustin56]

It says to confess our faults one to another, not to confess our sins to a priest. Jesus is our confessor. Everything the Catholic church is distortion.

Confessing ones sins to one another is not the same as forgiveness of sins. The AUTHORITY to FORGIVE SINS rests with the Apostles, and by extension, their successors. Authority is GIVEN, not taken. And it is Christ Who does the forgiving THROUGH the Apostles and their successors in the Sacrament of Confession that He instituted in John 20:19-23.

Apostolic Authority is transferred by the laying on of hands. Christ gave His authority to teach, preach, sanctify and govern His Church to the Apostles. They, in turn, handed down this authority to their successors, the bishops. The bishops did likewise, down through the centuries. Every Catholic bishop's authority comes through a succession of bishops back to a particular Apostle, who got that authority from Christ.

Acts 1:15-26 – the first thing Peter does after Jesus ascends into heaven is implement apostolic succession. Matthias is ordained with full apostolic authority. Only the Catholic Church can demonstrate an unbroken apostolic lineage to the apostles in union with Peter through the sacrament of ordination and thereby claim to teach with Christ’s own authority.

Acts 1:20 – a successor of Judas is chosen. The authority of his office (his “bishopric”) is respected notwithstanding his egregious sin. The necessity to have apostolic succession in order for the Church to survive was understood by all. God never said, “I’ll give you leaders with authority for about 400 years, but after the Bible is compiled, you are all on your own.”

Acts 1:22 – literally, “one must be ordained” to be a witness with us of His resurrection. Apostolic ordination is required in order to teach with Christ’s authority.

Acts 6:6 – apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority has transferred beyond the original twelve apostles as the Church has grown.

Acts 9:17-19 – even Paul, who was directly chosen by Christ, only becomes a minister after the laying on of hands by a bishop. This is a powerful proof-text for the necessity of sacramental ordination in order to be a legitimate successor of the apostles.

Acts 13:3 – apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority must come from a Catholic bishop.

Acts 14:23 – the apostles and newly-ordained men appointed elders to have authority throughout the Church.

Acts 15:22-27 – preachers of the Word must be sent by the bishops in union with the Church. We must trace this authority to the apostles.

2 Cor. 1:21-22 – Paul writes that God has commissioned certain men and sealed them with the Holy Spirit as a guarantee.

Col 1:25 – Paul calls his position a divine “office.” An office has successors. It does not terminate at death. Or it’s not an office. See also Heb. 7:23 – an office continues with another successor after the previous office-holder’s death.

1 Tim. 3:1 – Paul uses the word “episcopoi” (bishop) which requires an office. Everyone understood that Paul’s use of episcopoi and office meant it would carry on after his death by those who would succeed him.

1 Tim. 4:14 – again, apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination).

1 Tim. 5:22 – Paul urges Timothy to be careful in laying on the hands (ordaining others). The gift of authority is a reality and cannot be used indiscriminately.

2 Tim. 1:6 – Paul again reminds Timothy the unique gift of God that he received through the laying on of hands.

2 Tim. 4:1-6 – at end of Paul’s life, Paul charges Timothy with the office of his ministry . We must trace true apostolic lineage back to a Catholic bishop.

2 Tim. 2:2 – this verse shows God’s intention is to transfer authority to successors (here, Paul to Timothy to 3rd to 4th generation). It goes beyond the death of the apostles.

Titus 1:5; Luke 10:1 – the elders of the Church are appointed and hold authority. God has His children participate in Christ’s work.

1 John 4:6 – whoever knows God listens to us (the bishops and the successors to the apostles). This is the way we discern truth and error (not just by reading the Bible and interpreting it for ourselves).

Exodus 18:25-26 – Moses appoints various heads over the people of God. We see a hierarchy, a transfer of authority and succession.

Exodus 40:15 – the physical anointing shows that God intended a perpetual priesthood with an identifiable unbroken succession.

Numbers 3:3 – the sons of Aaron were formally “anointed” priests in “ordination” to minister in the priests’ “office.”

Numbers 16:40 – shows God’s intention of unbroken succession within His kingdom on earth. Unless a priest was ordained by Aaron and his descendants, he had no authority.

Numbers 27:18-20 – shows God’s intention that, through the “laying on of hands,” one is commissioned and has authority.

Deut. 34:9 – Moses laid hands upon Joshua, and because of this, Joshua was obeyed as successor, full of the spirit of wisdom.

Sirach 45:15 – Moses ordains Aaron and anoints him with oil. There is a transfer of authority through formal ordination.

 

[Augustin56]

What, in your mind, distinguishes "people who disagree with Catholic teaching" from "liars?"

Hey, RedFan! If I may answer that question for myself...?

Those who disagree with Cathoilc teaching are distinguished from liars by this:

Those who disagree with Catholic teaching admit what the Catholic Church actually teaches, but disagree, for whatever reason.

Liars put forth something that the Catholic Church doesn't teach, and, yet, claim that it does. In some case the lying is more aggregious because they have been corrected and told that what the Catholic Church DOES teach, yet continue to spread the lie that it teachings something that it doesn't teach.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Egad! You just talked yourself out of obeying Acts 2:38. You are the king of commentary.
The next thing you know, you are going to be baptizing babies for the remission of sins before they repent, and you will omit the name of Jesus… Lol

You are BORN in sin, Einstein (Psalm 51:5, Psalm 58:3, Rom. 5:12, Rom. 5:19, Eph. 2:3, 1 Cor. 15:22).

Baptism removes this sin at ANY age. That’s why Peter Baptized the entire household of Cornelius (Acts 10:1-49, 11:13-14) and Paul Baptized the entire households of the Philippian Jailer (Acts 16:23-33 ) and Stephanas (1 Cor. 1:16), Einstein.

Ignorant and clueless is NO way to go through life, son . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

What, in your mind, distinguishes "people who disagree with Catholic teaching" from "liars?"

A person may disagree with Catholic teaching and choose to worship God differently - but he accepts the historic facts about the Church.

A liar will revise history, LIE about what the Church actually teaches and refuses to accept correction when presented with irrefutable facts.