What is the initial evidence of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit?

[St. SteVen]

I have only had one experience in that area.

@Fred J here's my testimony of that experience.

I was on another forum years ago where a man was having a rant which ended in an absolute fit by writing this:
"... consult with your Holy Spirit and get back to me!"

Yikes! It was a real scorcher of a post. Had to wear oven mitts to read it. - LOL

I was still reading when I heard very clearly, "Answer him."
Say what? "Er... what should I say?" No reply, as usual. - LOL

I hit REPLY and took a deep breath and just started typing.
Words were going into the post with little thinking effort from me.
I reviewed what I had written and fixed the obvious spelling errors.
Marveling at what I had written, but a bit uncomfortable. I hit SEND.

I had asked him to flip open a Bible and point randomly to a verse that would speak to him.
Under normal circumstances I don't recommend doing that. But... whatever. ???

The next day I heard back from the guy. He was a completely different person.
Something had changed. He told me that he had in fact randomly opened the Bible and pointed to a verse.

The verse is pasted below.

When he read "before the silver cord is severed" he was overcome with God's presence.
The post I had delivered spoke to the pain he was experiencing. Which I had no knowledge of.

He shared that he had lost a child and his wife in childbirth. He was angry and bitter.
The "silver cord" had reminded him of the umbilical cord "severed" at birth.

He pressed me to tell him the color of his wife's hair.

I said that would be an abuse of the gift, but for some reason I was seeing red hair in my mind's eye.
BINGO. Red hair.

Ecclesiastes 12:6 NIV
Remember him—before the silver cord is severed,
and the golden bowl is broken;
before the pitcher is shattered at the spring,
and the wheel broken at the well,

[

 

[Fred J]

St. SteVen said:
Five Uses of Tongues
3) Congregational message (preferably with interpretation) 1 Corinthians 14

This is the gift of prophesying in the known tongues of men in the church gathering, speak by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine (verse 6).

This has nothing to do with the gift speaking in unknown tongues of angels, where required interpretation for the church gathering. Without interpretation the person have to be quiet, utter instead within, between himself and GOD.

Five Uses of Tongues
1) Personal prayer language (speaking to God) See Acts 1:5, 1 Corinthians 14:2 and Acts 19:6
2) Intercessory prayer language (prayer in the Spirit) See Romans 8:26
4) Worship language (singing in tongues) See 1 Corinthians 14:15
5) Evangelistic language (language of the hearers) Like the outpouring at Pentecost. See Acts 2[

This is the evidence to gift of unknown tongues of angels, where one must pray that he may interpret into the common language known to the church gatherers. (verse 13)

You still don't get it, when all this while with you am prophesying?

 

[St. SteVen]

This is the gift of prophesying in the known tongues of men in the church gathering, speak by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine (verse 6).

This has nothing to do with the gift speaking in unknown tongues of angels, where required interpretation for the church gathering. Without interpretation the person have to be quiet, utter instead within, between himself and GOD.

Not sure why you speak like you are an authority on the subject.
You agreed that you don't speak in tongues. Have you had the Baptism with the Holy Spirit?
If so, what evidence do you have? See the OP (post #1) for my position on this.

Do you NOT:
1) Have a personal prayer language?
2) Use tongues for intercessory prayer?
3) Deliver congregational messages in tongues?
4) Worship and sing in tongues?
5) Use an evangelistic language?

This is the evidence to gift of unknown tongues of angels, where one must pray that he may interpret into the common language known to the church gatherers. (verse 13)

How did you arrive at this conclusion? Not supported in 1 Cor 14:13 to my knowledge. Refuted here below.

1 Corinthians 14:9-11 NIV
So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue,
how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air.
10 Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world,
yet none of them is without meaning.
11 If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying,
I am a foreigner to the speaker, and the speaker is a foreigner to me.

You still don't get it, when all this while with you am prophesying?

First you wrote: "... i may have the gift of prophesying."
Now you write: "... all this while with you am prophesying".
What should I conclude?

[

 

[St. SteVen]

This is the evidence to gift of unknown tongues of angels...

Why do you insist that tongues are the tongues of angels?
What does this mean? "different kinds of tongues" ???
Paul says they can be either the tongues of men or of angels. (1 Cor 13:1)

1 Corinthians 12:10 NIV
to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits,
to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a] and to still another the interpretation of tongues.[b]

1 Corinthians 13:1 NIV
If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love,
I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.

[

 

[Fred J]

Not sure why you speak like you are an authority on the subject.

It is apparent that you've not been granted the wisdom to understand the context of the scripture. Even here, from 1 Corinthians ch. 12 to ch 14, unable to grasp there are divers of gifts of the Holy Ghost imparted to individual believers. And speaking in unknown tongues of angels to men, is not the only gift in the church. There are other gifts of the Holy Ghost vital bestowed in other believers, hence in oneness to serve the Kingdom of GOD through Jesus Christ.

Go and pray for wisdom and study these chapters, then you will understand whose authority am testifying from even quoting verses.

You agreed that you don't speak in tongues. Have you had the Baptism with the Holy Spirit?
If so, what evidence do you have? See the OP (post #1) for my position on this.

How shortsighted are you apparently in regards ch, 12 to ch. 14 in context.

Is speaking in unknown tongues of angels to men, is the only gift of the Holy Ghost there?

No, because there are diversities of gifts also vital for service towards one another according to 1 Cor. 12: 4-10. Read on the following verses for clearer understanding, knowing you're not on your own nor inferior having the gift of unknown tongues.

Do you NOT:
1) Have a personal prayer language?
2) Use tongues for intercessory prayer?
3) Deliver congregational messages in tongues?
4) Worship and sing in tongues?
5) Use an evangelistic language?

Do GOD the FATHER of our Lord Jesus Christ forbid or reject me for praying, intercede, sing, in English language?

No, and everyone in our English service understand English, furthermore better they know whether am telling the truth or not. On the other hand, when one speak in unknown tongues of angels to men, how can any man on earth understand? Next, we also have to evaluate one's interpretation of these tongues, because the one interpreting is doing it in the spirit and clueless.

Again to expose your shortsighted fallacy in regards ch. 14, there's no congregational or evangelistic messages in unknown tongues of angels spoken to men. The gift of cloven tongues known to all men in Jerusalem was received on the day of Pentecost, and is what used to evangelize to the world.

And the other gift of prophesying in the known tongues of men, is the congregational messages for every church believers. Also for an outsider who walks in, he is able to understand since is in the languages of men. Apart from the gift of unknown tongues of angels to men, he will apparently be baffled and think these people are crazy.

1 Cor. 12:
10. To another the working of miracles; to another prophesying; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

Now tell me are they the same gift in one believer?

No!

How did you arrive at this conclusion? Not supported in 1 Cor 14:13 to my knowledge. Refuted here below.

1 Corinthians 14:9-11 NIV
So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue,
how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air.

Refers to the gift of unknown tongues of angels to men, that require prayer for the gift of interpretation.

10 Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world,
yet none of them is without meaning.

Gift of known tongues to men, as received on the day of Pentecost.

11 If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying,
I am a foreigner to the speaker, and the speaker is a foreigner to me.

How can any man understand the unknown tongues of angels from Heaven?

Matt. 22:
30. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of GOD in Heaven.

Revelation 4:
8. And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, Holy, Holy, LORD GOD Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

The angels in Heaven worship GOD day and night, and in Heaven there's known languages they communicate with. But these are unknown tongues to men on earth, because are of angels' in Heaven.

But nevertheless, is also a gift of the Holy Ghost bestowed upon certain believers in the church. Therefore believers here on earth able to witness and experience the worship in the unknown tongues of angels to GOD.

Together with interpretation in the languages of men can understand, the whole congregation worshiping GOD in understanding. And at the end every one there receive edification, hence together they declare, Amen

First you wrote: "... i may have the gift of prophesying."
Now you write: "... all this while with you am prophesying".
What should I conclude?[

When you're shortsighted to scripture and it's context, further lacking wisdom, what is there to conclude apart from 'self'?

We sang, played the flute and danced, but surely in your shortsightedness you remain baffled.

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ

 

[St. SteVen]

Now tell me are they the same gift in one believer?

This discussion is over, You have been very disrespectful to me.

It is apparent that you've not been granted the wisdom to understand the context of the scripture.

How shortsighted are you apparently in regards ch, 12 to ch. 14 in context.

Again to expose your shortsighted fallacy in regards ch. 14

When you're shortsighted to scripture and it's context, further lacking wisdom, what is there to conclude apart from 'self'?

We sang, played the flute and danced, but surely in your shortsightedness you remain baffled.

Done.

[

 

[Carl Emerson]

In a previous topic we explored why the baptized believers in Samaria hadn't received the Holy Spirit.

Why hadn't the baptized believers in Samaria received the Holy Spirit?

The typical response to the question about the initial evidence of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit, is tongues.
But when I read the book of the Acts of the Apostles, I see it is not limited to tongues.
I conclude that any manifestation of the Holy Spirit could be the initial evidence.

Would you limit the initial evidence to speaking in tongues?

Here are the scriptures that led to my conclusions on this.

Acts 10:46 NIV
For they heard them speaking in tongues[a] and praising God. ...

Acts 19:6 NIV
When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them,
and they spoke in tongues[a] and prophesied.

/

How do we know they all did ???

Maybe some spoke in tongues and others prophesied ?????

 

[St. SteVen]

How do we know they all did ???

Maybe some spoke in tongues and others prophesied ?????

I assumed that.
It never occurred to me that they all BOTH spoke in tongues and prophesied.
But I suppose that is possible.

Do you limit the initial evidence for the Baptism with the Holy Spirit to speaking in tongues?
What is your position? Thanks.

[

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Jesus said, "you MUST be born again." Why? To pray supernaturally to Him? No! To cleanse our sin nature of SIN!

When I was born again in 1977 I literally felt a heaviness lift up out of me and I felt light as a feather. Also, the desire to sin I tried to turn from and kept failing was suddenly gone. 1 John 3:9 was true in my life. "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."

It's funny that John doesn't mention any of the gifts of the Spirit. That is not to say I wasn't also given all but two of the gifts of the Spirit of 1 Cor. 12, Mark 16 and Joel 2! Those were given to me to allow this flawed person to have a supernatural relationship with the God of the whole UNIVERSE! But the freedom from sin was the first and most apparent.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

How do we know they all did ???

Maybe some spoke in tongues and others prophesied ?????

Hi Carl,

What I noticed about those newbies that got the Holy Spirit after the Day of Pentecost was the Gentiles' tongues were prayer languages, but the Jews and Samaritans (the ten other tribes of Israel) prophesied.

 

[Truther]

How do we know they all did ???

Maybe some spoke in tongues and others prophesied ?????

It says the did both

 

[quietthinker]

It says the did both

is it always the case that 'speaking in tongues' means speaking is a unlearned language?

 

[Carl Emerson]

I assumed that.
It never occurred to me that they all BOTH spoke in tongues and prophesied.
But I suppose that is possible.

Do you limit the initial evidence for the Baptism with the Holy Spirit to speaking in tongues?
What is your position? Thanks.

[

I had some fluency in tongues before being baptised in the Spirit.

It says the did both

But does 'they' mean every individual ? It seems prophesy and tongues were heard among them, but this does not present evidence that every individual was fluent in tongues.

Not all who are Baptised in the Spirit speak in tongues.

 

[Behold]

is it always the case that 'speaking in tongues' means speaking is a unlearned language?

No.

Where the confusion is found... is this.

"prayer language" vs "Gift of Tongues".

Most Denominations that are more concerned about the "gifts" and that is their main theology concern... don't understand the difference between a "prayer language" and the Spiritual GIFT of "Tongues"
So, when you teach them as the same thing..when they are not the same.......then you are just confusing the already confused, to be as confused as the ignorant Teacher.

 

[St. SteVen]

is it always the case that 'speaking in tongues' means speaking is a unlearned language?

The short answer is, "Yes." I think the Bible typically uses the term "unknown".
Which has an even broader meaning. (tongues of men and angels)

But most importantly, it is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit.
And there are many purposes for it.

Five Uses of Tongues
1) Personal prayer language (speaking to God) See Acts 1:5, 1 Corinthians 14:2 and Acts 19:6
2) Intercessory prayer language (prayer in the Spirit) See Romans 8:26
3) Congregational message (preferably with interpretation) 1 Corinthians 14
4) Worship language (singing in tongues) See 1 Corinthians 14:15
5) Evangelistic language (language of the hearers) Like the outpouring at Pentecost. See Acts 2

[

 

[St. SteVen]

Not all who are Baptised in the Spirit speak in tongues.

Agree.
But they should manifest the Spirit in some way.

I have a few gifts that aren't even on the list.
We can't limit the Spirit.

John 3:8 NIV
The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound,
but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going.
So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”[a]

[

 

[Rockerduck]

It is apparent that you've not been granted the wisdom to understand the context of the scripture. Even here, from 1 Corinthians ch. 12 to ch 14, unable to grasp there are divers of gifts of the Holy Ghost imparted to individual believers. And speaking in unknown tongues of angels to men, is not the only gift in the church. There are other gifts of the Holy Ghost vital bestowed in other believers, hence in oneness to serve the Kingdom of GOD through Jesus Christ.

Go and pray for wisdom and study these chapters, then you will understand whose authority am testifying from even quoting verses.

How shortsighted are you apparently in regards ch, 12 to ch. 14 in context.

Is speaking in unknown tongues of angels to men, is the only gift of the Holy Ghost there?

No, because there are diversities of gifts also vital for service towards one another according to 1 Cor. 12: 4-10. Read on the following verses for clearer understanding, knowing you're not on your own nor inferior having the gift of unknown tongues.


Do GOD the FATHER of our Lord Jesus Christ forbid or reject me for praying, intercede, sing, in English language?

No, and everyone in our English service understand English, furthermore better they know whether am telling the truth or not. On the other hand, when one speak in unknown tongues of angels to men, how can any man on earth understand? Next, we also have to evaluate one's interpretation of these tongues, because the one interpreting is doing it in the spirit and clueless.

Again to expose your shortsighted fallacy in regards ch. 14, there's no congregational or evangelistic messages in unknown tongues of angels spoken to men. The gift of cloven tongues known to all men in Jerusalem was received on the day of Pentecost, and is what used to evangelize to the world.

And the other gift of prophesying in the known tongues of men, is the congregational messages for every church believers. Also for an outsider who walks in, he is able to understand since is in the languages of men. Apart from the gift of unknown tongues of angels to men, he will apparently be baffled and think these people are crazy.

1 Cor. 12:
10. To another the working of miracles; to another prophesying; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

Now tell me are they the same gift in one believer?

No!

Refers to the gift of unknown tongues of angels to men, that require prayer for the gift of interpretation.

Gift of known tongues to men, as received on the day of Pentecost.

How can any man understand the unknown tongues of angels from Heaven?

Matt. 22:
30. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of GOD in Heaven.

Revelation 4:
8. And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, Holy, Holy, LORD GOD Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

The angels in Heaven worship GOD day and night, and in Heaven there's known languages they communicate with. But these are unknown tongues to men on earth, because are of angels' in Heaven.

But nevertheless, is also a gift of the Holy Ghost bestowed upon certain believers in the church. Therefore believers here on earth able to witness and experience the worship in the unknown tongues of angels to GOD.

Together with interpretation in the languages of men can understand, the whole congregation worshiping GOD in understanding. And at the end every one there receive edification, hence together they declare, Amen

When you're shortsighted to scripture and it's context, further lacking wisdom, what is there to conclude apart from 'self'?

We sang, played the flute and danced, but surely in your shortsightedness you remain baffled.

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ

My #1 rule is not to talk about anything that you have not experienced yourself. If you never had a heart attack, don't give advice on it. If you have never met or talked to angels, don't talk about it. If you've never spoken in tongues, don't talk about it. I'm tired of "experts" talking about a subject they have never experienced, and just shut it down because you have never experienced it, therefore nobody has experienced it.

 

[St. SteVen]

My #1 rule is not to talk about anything that you have not experienced yourself. If you never had a heart attack, don't give advice on it. If you have never met or talked to angels, don't talk about it. If you've never spoken in tongues, don't talk about it. I'm tired of "experts" talking about a subject they have never experienced, and just shut it down because you have never experienced it, therefore nobody has experienced it.

Agree.
One of my pet peeves is those who have never spoken in tongues instructing those who do in how it should be done.

[

 

[Ritajanice]

Initial evidence.

We have been gifted supernatural faith, the Spirit has birthed our spirit into his, we have supernatural eyes and ears, the moment we are birthed..therefore have God given faith, he made himself known via his Spirit to our spirit, that is what it means to be Born Again of imperishable seed .

We know God because he chose to birth us in the Spirit.

Human faith is no faith at all, no one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Rockerduck]

Agree.
One of my pet peeves is those who have never spoken in tongues instructing those who do in how it should be done.

[

Yes.