You seemed to still have a misunderstanding of the order of events. You were limiting gospel outreach until after Pentecost. But perhaps I misunderstood you. ???
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What is the initial evidence of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit?
- Thread starter St. SteVen
- Start date
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The order of event am testifying with scripture and the wisdom given me. And you don't get it, am only clarifying, the disciples did not receive the Holy Ghost while Jesus was with them. Just after John the Baptist baptized Jesus, the Holy Ghost descended in Jesus and remain. Only when Jesus ascended into Heaven, the Holy Ghost was sent down to descend on them on the day of Pentecost.
Meantime Jesus was with them proclaiming the Gospel of the Kingdom, He was only able to impart the power of the Holy Ghost in them. Therefore the disciple learn and have their share, and blessing in the labor, as they were called to become, 'fishers of men'.
Now do you have an issue with that?
Yeah i guess you did, therefore hold your horses!
Am not limiting the Gospel outreach, rather listen and pay attention, thank you.
The Gospel outreach begin with John the Baptist, the best man sent forth to make way for the groom. To prepare the bride, Israelite first and then the Gentiles, in repentance and water baptized. Is for the bride to prepare a straight path for the groom Lord to come. Hence in marriage the groom baptizes the bride with Holy Ghost and fire for life.
Meantime in preparation, the bride in water buries her old self centered life and out of water resurrecting a new spirit life. Since she's been forgiven and cleansed inside out, ready to meet the groom Lord of host in marriage and into the Kingdom of the FATHER.
Where now He is going to disciple impart the new bride first, with the knowledge of grace and truth brought from the Kingdom of FATHER in Heaven. Therefore to make it plain, after Jesus ascended, the disciples turn Apostles, forwarded the same to rest of the world.
So where did i miss and limit the Gospel outreach?
Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ
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There are plenty of examples of the Holy Spirit being active in individuals well before Pentecost. Both NT and OT link below.
Luke 1:15
for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born.
Luke 1:41
When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.
Luke 1:67
His father Zechariah was filled with the Holy Spirit and prophesied:
BibleGateway - Keyword Search: filled spirit
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Thank you for pointing that out, but then again while Jesus was with them the Holy Ghost was in Jesus. Jesus clearly mentioned to them that if He does not leave the Holy Ghost cannot come unto them. Meantime Jesus was only able to impart the power or gift of the Holy Ghost in them to become fellow laborers. In order to prepare the bride to make a straight path for Lord of Host to come in union. Then before ascension He breathe in them the power or gift of the breath of life from the Holy Ghost in Him.
Receiving the Holy Ghost fully like Jesus is one thing and receiving only the power or gift of the Holy Ghost is another. In other words, the Apostles after Jesus received the power or gift of cloven tongues and more from the Holy Ghost as promised to them. And the church received the partial and divided power or gift of the Holy Ghost as according to 1 Corinthians ch. 12 to ch.14.
For the record, the Holy Ghost is a single person and how can He be in everyone at one time? So i believe His power or gift fully able to manifest in the individual Apostles like Jesus at one time. And also at the same time, able to partially and dividedly manifest in individuals of the church as one body of Christ.
Later in His 30, John the Baptist as prepared by GOD, witnessed the Holy Ghost descend on Jesus in the form of a dove.Luke 1:15
for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born.
Luke 1:41
When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.
Luke 1:67
His father Zechariah was filled with the Holy Spirit and prophesied:
BibleGateway - Keyword Search: filled spirit
www.biblegateway.com
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That's an interesting view, thanks.
Not sure if it can be established that "while Jesus was with them the Holy Ghost was in Jesus". I don't think that is what Jesus meant. In my view:
- Jesus did not contain/restrain the Holy Spirit.
- The Holy Spirit coming after Jesus left was in reference to the general outpouring at Pentecost and beyond.
If you can establish your position with scripture, I would like to see that. Thanks.
Something that I have learned in my study is that the Holy Spirit cannot be limited. Nor can methodologies be counted on for the desired results.
Why hadn't the baptized believers in Samaria received the Holy Spirit? (2)
Why hadn't the baptized believers in Samaria received the Holy Spirit? Just to be clear, I do not question whether the believers in Samaria had received the "indwelling" Spirit when they believed. They were missing something else. Acts 8:14-17 NIV When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that...
www.christianityboard.com
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Greetings, and may GOD the FATHER of our Lord Jesus Christ assist and bless HIS church.
Luke 3:
21. Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the Heaven was opened,
22. And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon Him, ................................................
Acts 10:
38. How GOD anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: ..........................
It is clear as daylight that the Holy Ghost single person, in full descended upon Jesus, as He is 'Emmanuel'.
Acts 2:
3. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
And on the day of Pentecost, cloven tongues descended and sat upon each of the Apostles.
Acts 10:
45. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify GOD. ..........................
Compared to Jesus, but here to them after the descend of cloven tongues or speaking with tongues on them. Then only goes on to say, either they were filled with or received the Holy Ghost. Depending on the portion of power or gift of the Holy Ghost they were filled with or received Him.
We are witnessing the significant difference between the Son of GOD, a single person here on earth and the many saints, the Apostles and church. Nevertheless, Jesus did say that the Apostles will do greater works than He, probably they received a bigger portion of power or gift of the Holy Ghost besides the church.
John 16:
7. Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away: the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send Him unto you.
Jesus is not restraining the Holy Ghost, but the Holy Ghost is restrained in Jesus until Jesus goes to the Father. When He is with the FATHER, then Jesus will send the Holy Ghost unto them.
Scripturally we also discern the disciples were not competent and immature when they were with Jesus. Compared to after in Pentecost filled with the Holy Ghost and in the book of Acts, their complete change is evidence.
Shalom because of Lord Jesus Christ
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Thanks for your thoughtful and detailed reply.
From my perspective, the bungling continued. This forum topic below highlights an example.
How would you answer the topic title question?
Why hadn't the baptized believers in Samaria received the Holy Spirit?
Why hadn't the baptized believers in Samaria received the Holy Spirit? Just to be clear, I do not question whether the believers in Samaria had received the "indwelling" Spirit when they believed. They were missing something else. Acts 8:14-17 NIV When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that...
www.christianityboard.com
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First of all, these were certain disciples of 12 people who were baptized on John's baptism. These disciples are probably the fruit of John's disciples and followers. And as we know not all of John's disciples believed and followed Jesus. Even though John repeatedly testified to them about Jesus, whom they should go to and follow. But they were in disbelieve and hence continue to remain with John until his death.
The last we hear about them is when they came to Jesus and informed Him of John's death. Probably due to Jesus and John are related, or they now have come to follow Jesus instead. The next person probably of John's follower we witness in the book of Acts is Apollos, knowing only the baptism of John.
Therefore, these 12 disciples did not receive the Holy Ghost because they have not believed in Jesus. Apparently who will baptize them with Holy Ghost and Fire, even through the Apostles after Him. Moreover, the Apostles further had to lay their hands upon them, then the Holy Ghost came on them.
Next, the gift of tongues is a highlight in the book of Acts, as a sign the Holy Ghost have come on them. Nevertheless according to 1 Corinthians ch. 12 - 14, there are divers of gifts from the Holy Ghost bestowed upon the church. i hope that fairly clarifies some of the things you're looking for based on your tread.
Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ
Are you claiming that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are not for today?
Or perhaps you are throwing away body parts? Thus making the Body of Christ an amputee?
1 Corinthians 12:12 NIV
Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ.
1 Corinthians 12:27-31 NIV
Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.
28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets,
third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping,
of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?
30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[a]? Do all interpret?
31 Now eagerly desire the greater gifts. ...
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If i claim, you prove it, or you're just playin...
1Cor. ch. 12-14, isn't Paul referring to the church?
Aren't there church today?
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You're just going a little bt abroad there just to drag your thread in discussion.
St. SteVen said:
Are you claiming that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are not for today?
I takes ALL of the gifts to make up the Body of Christ.
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Are you claiming that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are not for today?
Yes, Paul is referring to the church. And yes the gifts of the Spirit are for today.
I takes ALL of the gifts to make up the Body of Christ.
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St. SteVen said:
Or perhaps you are throwing away body parts? Thus making the Body of Christ an amputee?
1 Corinthians 12:27-31 NIV
Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.
28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets,
third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping,
of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?
30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[a]? Do all interpret?
31 Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.
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Or perhaps you are throwing away body parts? Thus making the Body of Christ an amputee?
No, I'm serious. Which body parts would you throw away?
1 Corinthians 12:27-31 NIV
Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.
28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets,
third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping,
of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?
30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[a]? Do all interpret?
31 Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.
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In your reply?
Do you recognize ALL the gifts of the Holy Spirit as valid today? (I was thinking that you didn't)
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The New Testament is the New Covenant GOD through Christ Jesus made with us born again. Without a doubt the same gifts according to 1 Cor. ch. 12-14, is as valid to the church today.
But sadly the denominations of today are twisted and divided in opinion and interpretation of the scripture. While other denomination only focused on tongue utterance without interpretation. And they go off like crazy and behave weirdly and act like in a mental asylum.
Interpretation of these tongues of angels is vital for the edification of the church, so others who are gifted not in tongues understand. Interpreted into the common language of the people, therefore all together understand and at the end of it they may declare, Amen
Thanks for your reply. I'm guessing that you do not speak in tongues based on your response. ???
In my view there are five types of tongues, not one.
Five Uses of Tongues
1) Personal prayer language (speaking to God) See Acts 1:5, 1 Corinthians 14:2 and Acts 19:6
2) Intercessory prayer language (prayer in the Spirit) See Romans 8:26
3) Congregational message (preferably with interpretation) 1 Corinthians 14
4) Worship language (singing in tongues) See 1 Corinthians 14:15
5) Evangelistic language (language of the hearers) Like the outpouring at Pentecost. See Acts 2
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You got that right, but on the other hand, i may have the gift of prophesying.
Rather than your view, the scripture depict there are various gifts of the same Holy Ghost.
Gift of tongues of angels and gift of prophesying are two different gifts.
1 Cor. 14:
2. For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto GOD: for no man understaneth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
3. But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
These are tongues of men.
Apparently there are gift fo the tongues of men proclaiming the Gospel to the world. And there are toungues of angels, as you've testified, for interceeding, thanksgiving and worship to GOD on behalf oneself and the church.
Fyi, am not contending with you, to me merely iron sharpens iron, thank you
St. SteVen said:
Five Uses of Tongues
3) Congregational message (preferably with interpretation) 1 Corinthians 14
We know very little about the tongues of angels. It is only mentioned in 1 Cor 13, to my knowledge.
The use of the English word "gifts" in 1 Cor 12 is unfortunate.
More helpful to view them as manifestations of the Holy Spirit.
The manifestation of tongues in the 1 Cor 12 list is #3 in my list below of five uses of tongues.
I say this because the next manifestation listed is the interpretation of tongues.
Typically the only time the interpretation of tongues is needed is in a congregational setting
where tongues are delivered like a prophetic message to the entire congregation.
Therefore, the interpretation of tongues is prophecy, based on the message in tongues.
Which is what 1 Cor 14 is addressing. No need for interpretation in the other four uses.
(I spoke with someone who had this manifestation and gained some interesting insights)
Five Uses of Tongues
1) Personal prayer language (speaking to God) See Acts 1:5, 1 Corinthians 14:2 and Acts 19:6
2) Intercessory prayer language (prayer in the Spirit) See Romans 8:26
3) Congregational message (preferably with interpretation) 1 Corinthians 14
4) Worship language (singing in tongues) See 1 Corinthians 14:15
5) Evangelistic language (language of the hearers) Like the outpouring at Pentecost. See Acts 2
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Five Uses of Tongues
3) Congregational message (preferably with interpretation) 1 Corinthians 14
Yes, of course.
We know very little about the tongues of angels. It is only mentioned in 1 Cor 13, to my knowledge.
The use of the English word "gifts" in 1 Cor 12 is unfortunate.
More helpful to view them as manifestations of the Holy Spirit.
The manifestation of tongues in the 1 Cor 12 list is #3 in my list below of five uses of tongues.
I say this because the next manifestation listed is the interpretation of tongues.
Typically the only time the interpretation of tongues is needed is in a congregational setting
where tongues are delivered like a prophetic message to the entire congregation.
Therefore, the interpretation of tongues is prophecy, based on the message in tongues.
Which is what 1 Cor 14 is addressing. No need for interpretation in the other four uses.
(I spoke with someone who had this manifestation and gained some interesting insights)
Five Uses of Tongues
1) Personal prayer language (speaking to God) See Acts 1:5, 1 Corinthians 14:2 and Acts 19:6
2) Intercessory prayer language (prayer in the Spirit) See Romans 8:26
3) Congregational message (preferably with interpretation) 1 Corinthians 14
4) Worship language (singing in tongues) See 1 Corinthians 14:15
5) Evangelistic language (language of the hearers) Like the outpouring at Pentecost. See Acts 2
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St. SteVen said:
Thanks for your reply. I'm guessing that you do not speak in tongues based on your response. ???
I have been involved with Charismatic/Pentecostal/Signs & Wonders groups for over 40 years.
I offer myself as a source for information about things related to such.
My wife has a prophetic gift. She is too shy to address the congregation, which is fine, and her insights are for individuals anyway.
She writes them down. I would encourage you to do that if you are not already. I have only had one experience in that area.
This is why I don't like the word "gifts" in reference to the manifestations of the Holy Spirit. We don't possess the "gifts", the "gifts" possess us.
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Thanks for your reply. I'm guessing that you do not speak in tongues based on your response. ???
What indication do you have that this may be the case?
I have been involved with Charismatic/Pentecostal/Signs & Wonders groups for over 40 years.
I offer myself as a source for information about things related to such.
My wife has a prophetic gift. She is too shy to address the congregation, which is fine, and her insights are for individuals anyway.
She writes them down. I would encourage you to do that if you are not already. I have only had one experience in that area.
This is why I don't like the word "gifts" in reference to the manifestations of the Holy Spirit. We don't possess the "gifts", the "gifts" possess us.
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