What is the initial evidence of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit?

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rwb

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One how can we judge as to who is saved and who is not?
Second is Acts 2:38 the point that sins are remitted and the indwelling spirit is given as it states or am I missing something?
Third is not the water baptism in Christ name per Acts 2:38 not the spirit baptism that Jesus was to baptize with (meaning the giving of the spirit) that John the baptist was talking about?
Fourth if Acts 2:38 is not the baptism that John the baptist was talking about and that Matthew 28:19 and Mark 16;16 and Luke 24::47 are speaking of which one is show scripture to support?
Then the scripture did not mean that the baptism in the name of Jesus Christ was indeed for the remission of sin and the giving of the indwelling spirit as it says in Acts 2:38 that truth is not a truth as recorded but it need to be read through a different understanding?

Forgive me but I mean it clearly says that, it is not hard to see it is clearly written but it is not truth?

In Acts 2 they heard and were pricked in their heart because they believed in Christ through the message Peter preached to them. Upon repentance, asking "what shall we do" they were directed to be baptized in Christ's name, and then they should be capable of the gifts of the Holy Ghost. Notice it does not say they would receive the Holy Spirit, rather they would receive the gift they had seen in the apostles. To receive the gift of the Holy Spirit is not the same as receiving the Holy Spirit for eternal life. The passage does not say what the gift of the Holy Spirit was, but the promise of the Spirit was, "your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:"

Acts 2:37-39 (KJV) Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

The Holy Spirit is in those given the gift of tongues, which is what enabled them to speak with tongues. Then they received the gift of tongues from the Holy Spirit in them.

Acts 10:45 (KJV) And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 10:45-46 (KJV) And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
 
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Godslittleservant

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In Acts 2 they heard and were pricked in their heart because they believed in Christ through the message Peter preached to them. Upon repentance, asking "what shall we do" they were directed to be baptized in Christ's name, and then they should be capable of the gifts of the Holy Ghost. Notice it does not say they would receive the Holy Spirit, rather they would receive the gift they had seen in the apostles. To receive the gift of the Holy Spirit is not the same as receiving the Holy Spirit for eternal life. The passage does not say what the gift of the Holy Spirit was, but the promise of the Spirit was, "your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:"

Acts 2:37-39 (KJV) Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

The Holy Spirit is in those given the gift of tongues, which is what enabled them to speak with tongues. You have to remember this was the first Gentiles to hear the Gospel and through the power of the Spirit in them they believed. Then they received the gift of tongues from the Holy Spirit in them.

Acts 10:45 (KJV) And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 10:45-46 (KJV) And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
With all due respect I feel you are doing great dis-justice to the passage. The scripture says you shall the gift of the holy spirit. That gift is the indwelling spirit which is promised to all and could not be given until Christ was glorified meaning the cross. If you do not believe that it is talking about receiving the indwelling spirit then Go to Acts 19:1-5 where Paul makes it clear that it is in the baptism in Christ name (Acts 2:38) that the indwelling spirit is given. Scripture interprets scripture if allowed.Johns baptism could not ever give the the holy spirit only the baptism that he pointed to in Jesus name could give the indwelling spirit that is what Paul is saying when comparing the two.

The out pouring on the gentiles was a whole different story I could go into later but it was not the receiving of the indwelling spirit that happened when Peter commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ in the water verses 47 and 48 The spirit giving the gifts of tongues either through the direct power of God or the laying on of hands is nothing to do with the giving of the indwelling spirit it has totally different purpose shown in Mark 16:17-20 and Acts 1:8 I could go into much more detailed scripture which points this out but I don't think it would be heard.
 

St. SteVen

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As long as we focus is on the Word of God, there will never be consensus or even peace in our lifetime.

Matthew 10:34 (KJV) Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Ephesians 6:17 (KJV) And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
What is the only hope for unity in the Body of Christ today?

/
 

St. SteVen

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No wonder many of you folks don't understand what I write. Is it really true that you don't know the difference between the old covenant and the new? Here I will give it to you from the Apostle Paul...

Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
I know that. But we are talking about the whole church.

I'm still waiting for an explanation from you about the tangible damage to the church that water baptism is causing.

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rwb

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With all due respect I feel you are doing great dis-justice to the passage. The scripture says you shall the gift of the holy spirit. That gift is the indwelling spirit which is promised to all and could not be given until Christ was glorified meaning the cross. If you do not believe that it is talking about receiving the indwelling spirit then Go to Acts 19:1-5 where Paul makes it clear that it is in the baptism in Christ name (Acts 2:38) that the indwelling spirit is given. Scripture interprets scripture if allowed.Johns baptism could not ever give the the holy spirit only the baptism that he pointed to in Jesus name could give the indwelling spirit that is what Paul is saying when comparing the two.

The out pouring on the gentiles was a whole different story I could go into later but it was not the receiving of the indwelling spirit that happened when Peter commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ in the water verses 47 and 48 The spirit giving the gifts of tongues either through the direct power of God or the laying on of hands is nothing to do with the giving of the indwelling spirit it has totally different purpose shown in Mark 16:17-20 and Acts 1:8 I could go into much more detailed scripture which points this out but I don't think it would be heard.

The Holy Spirit gives gifts to us, being in us. Paul speaks more clearly about what the gifts of the Holy Spirit might be. In the conversion of the repentant Jews in Acts 2, we are not told what the gift of the Spirit in them was. It could have been tongues, as had been given to prove power had come on them, or it could have been any of the other gifts the Holy Spirit in us gives us.

1 Corinthians 12:4 (KJV) Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:8-11 (KJV) For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

It is written here that were called "certain disciples" already. They had already heard, repented and believed. But they had not heard of receiving the Holy Spirit. That had only heard of and submitted to John's baptism of repentance. Then Paul tells them that John baptized with the baptism of repentance that they should believe on Him, Who would come after John, that is, Christ Jesus. Then they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus, not with water but through the laying on of Paul's hands, and the Holy Spirit came on them with power through the gift of tongues and the ability to prophesy. They had already been saved by the power of the Gospel preached and the Holy Spirit in them, or He would not have shown them this supernatural gifts that He would give to those who believe.

Acts 19:1-7 (KJV) And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. And all the men were about twelve.
 

rwb

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What is the only hope for unity in the Body of Christ today?

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Can there ever be unity found in a people called the Church on this earth? The Church now is filled with both wheat and tares, that is believers and unbelievers alike. The tares will be with the wheat until they are separated out of the body of believers when the Lord returns. What does Scripture tell us that entrance into the Kingdom of God shall be like for the saints?

Acts 14:22 (KJV) Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
 
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St. SteVen

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St. SteVen said:
What is the only hope for unity in the Body of Christ today?
Can there ever be unity found in a people called the Church on this earth? The Church now is filled with both wheat and tares, that is believers and unbelievers alike. The tares will be with the wheat until they are separated out of the body of believers when the Lord returns. What does Scripture tell us that entrance into the Kingdom of God shall be like for the saints?

Acts 14:22 (KJV) Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
I'll take that as a "No."
No hope for unity in the Body of Christ today.
Or is there?


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Peterlag

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I know that. But we are talking about the whole church.

I'm still waiting for an explanation from you about the tangible damage to the church that water baptism is causing.

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You may never understand what I say because I think you think the whole Bible was written concerning you. The different administrations in the Bible are suited to different times because God has spoken everything to its proper time and administration. We will never understand the truth of God’s Word if we read into one administration what God tells us belongs to another administration. If we believe what God said in one administration and carry it into another administration that was on a different principle, we will be taking what is true for one time, and using it to contradict what is also true for another time. When we mix them all together, by jumbling the whole Bible together: Law, Gospel, Grace, Judgment, Glory, Jew, Gentile, and the Church of God, we will be very confused in our understanding of the truth of God’s Word.

What is written directly to the Jews, belongs to and is for the Jews. What is written directly to the Gentiles, belongs to and is for the Gentiles. What is written directly to the Church of God, belongs to and is for the Church of God. What does God mean when He tells us that the visions shown to Isaiah was concerning Judah and Jerusalem? It was not addressed to us or written concerning us, but it was addressed to and concerning Judah and Jerusalem. It would be dishonest for the Church of God to interpret to the Church of God what God said concerns Israel.

The present administration of God is in the time period of the New Testament known as Grace. It deals with the new covenant, and it belongs to the time that is called the administration of the mystery. It's a period in time that was not made known to any one prior to this administration because God kept it a secret since the world began. From this our Grace administration, we learn God’s secret purpose that He had placed in Himself, according to the administration of Grace, which was first revealed to the apostle Paul.
 

Godslittleservant

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The Holy Spirit gives gifts to us, being in us. Paul speaks more clearly about what the gifts of the Holy Spirit might be. In the conversion of the repentant Jews in Acts 2, we are not told what the gift of the Spirit in them was. It could have been tongues, as had been given to prove power had come on them, or it could have been any of the other gifts the Holy Spirit in us gives us.

1 Corinthians 12:4 (KJV) Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:8-11 (KJV) For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

It is written here that were called "certain disciples" already. They had already heard, repented and believed. But they had not heard of receiving the Holy Spirit. That had only heard of and submitted to John's baptism of repentance. Then Paul tells them that John baptized with the baptism of repentance that they should believe on Him, Who would come after John, that is, Christ Jesus. Then they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus, not with water but through the laying on of Paul's hands, and the Holy Spirit came on them with power through the gift of tongues and the ability to prophesy. They had already been saved by the power of the Gospel preached and the Holy Spirit in them, or He would not have shown them this supernatural gifts that He would give to those who believe.

Acts 19:1-7 (KJV) And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. And all the men were about twelve.
Never mind you are so far off on this I cannot address it all on here. I thought I was following you and understanding you but it became abundantly clear we are on to separate universes. I will leave you with your thoughts.
 

rwb

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Never mind you are so far off on this I cannot address it all on here. I thought I was following you and understanding you but it became abundantly clear we are on to separate universes. I will leave you with your thoughts.

This is very discouraging for me to hear. When we are shown proof from Scripture that the doctrine we cling to is not biblically true, why do some react in this manner? Why don't you try to prove from Scripture how I am "far off on this"? If you cannot prove this from the Bible, then why do you refuse to consider that I have given you truth, that I've shown comes from the Word of God? You have a Bible with verses that prove the gifts that come from the Holy Spirit come only to those who have the Spirit in them, you don't have to take my word for it, in fact I would advise you not to. But unless you seek for yourself, you will forever remain in error, believing the gift is the Holy Spirit coming upon them and never understand the gift(s) of the Spirit come through the Spirit already in us. We only have these Spiritual gifts when we have the Holy Spirit by being born again when we believe and repent of our sins and turn to Christ for eternal life.
 

St. SteVen

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The present administration of God is in the time period of the New Testament known as Grace. It deals with the new covenant, and it belongs to the time that is called the administration of the mystery. It's a period in time that was not made known to any one prior to this administration because God kept it a secret since the world began. From this our Grace administration, we learn God’s secret purpose that He had placed in Himself, according to the administration of Grace, which was first revealed to the apostle Paul.
Would your view be considered Dispensationalism?

You may never understand what I say because I think you think the whole Bible was written concerning you.
I understand that we are not under the law that God gave to the Israelites alone through Moses.

I'm still waiting for an explanation from you about the tangible damage to the church that water baptism is causing.

/
 

FaithWillDo

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1 Corinthians 12:7-11 NIV
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.
8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom,
to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit,
9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit,
10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy,
to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a]
and to still another the interpretation of tongues.[b]
11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit,
and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.
Dear St.SteVen,
I Cor 12:7-11 is teaching about the spiritual gifts that a new believer receives upon receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit.

When a believer receives the Latter Rain of the Spirit (Baptism of the Spirit), they already have the gifts of the Spirit.

So what changes when a believer receives the Baptism of the Spirit (Latter Rain)?

The Apostles received the Early Rain of the Spirit at some point during Christ's ministry. This is evidenced by their confession of faith and the spiritual gifts that they had. However, they were still spiritually blind and only had a limited understanding of Christ. In other words, they could see Christ by the flesh (carnal understanding) but they could not see Christ by the Spirit (spiritual understanding).

Christ explains what I have stated above in the events below:

Mark 8:15 And he charged them, saying, take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod. 16 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, it is because we have no bread. 17 And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened? 18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember? 19 When I broke the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve. 20 And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, Seven. 21 And he said unto them, HOW IS IT THAT YE DO NOT UNDERSTAND?

In the verses above, Christ is giving His disciples a lesson on the spiritual language of God's Word - His language. At this point in time (before they were converted at Pentecost), the disciples had not yet received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (Latter Rain) and because of such, they were still spiritually blind. They had received the Early Rain of the Spirit, but they still could not understand what Christ was teaching them. After Christ’s short lesson, Christ ends it by asking them this question: How is it that ye do not understand”? No response from the Apostles is recorded in scripture. However, Christ answers His own question in the very next four verses.

Mark 8:22 And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him. 23 And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought. 24 And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking. 25 After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.

Since Christ is the Word of God, He teaches us not only through His words which are recorded in scripture but also by the things that He did. In answering the question that He proposed to the disciples in verse 21, Christ goes to Bethsaida and gives us His answer in type by the healing of a blind man. This type is the same type which Christ uses with the Old Testament events to teach His spiritual truths.

In verse 23, Christ leads a blind man out of the city. Once outside the city, Christ places spit on his eyes and touches him with His hands. These actions occur as the blind man is looking down which symbolizes the carnal aspect of His healing. Christ does not have to tell the blind man to look down, the blind man just does it naturally. The spit (water) symbolizes the blind man receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit with its accompanying vision (understanding). This event represents the time when an unbeliever is called out from the world and enters the church. After Christ asks the man what he could see, the man looks up and says that he could see men walking as trees. "Walking as Trees" is a spiritual symbol for called out believers who walk by sight rather than by faith. At this point, the blind man is a type of a called out believer. The man’s blindness was not total any longer but he was still very near-sighted.

This first healing of the blind man reflects the true spiritual condition of a new believer when they first enter the church. At that time, they are left carnally minded and spiritually near-sighted. They can see a little but that only opens the door to Satan's deceptions - deceptions which each new believer readily accepts due to their carnal nature still being in control of them.

In the final verse of the story, Christ lays His hands upon the man’s eyes again, but as He does, Christ has the man look up instead of down. This second healing represents the Latter Rain of the Spirit when true spiritual vision is given to the believer. The man’s upward gaze represents the spiritual aspect of the healing in contrast to the carnal aspect when the blind man was looking down at the earth. From that moment onward, we now know that the blind man is a type of a called and chosen believer who has received both the Early and Latter Rains. He has been given eyes that can see. From his new ability to understand God's Word, he will then come out from Satan's deceptions and will begin walking by faith. He will be included in the resurrection of the First Fruits and will receive life during the ages.

CONTINUED ON THE NEXT POST...
 
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FaithWillDo

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1 Corinthians 12:7-11 NIV
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.
8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom,
to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit,
9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit,
10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy,
to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a]
and to still another the interpretation of tongues.[b]
11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit,
and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.

CONTINUED FROM THE PREVIOUS POST...

So what else changes when a person receives the Baptism of the Spirit?

When a person receives the Early Rain of the Spirit, they are given a "measure of faith" (Rom 12:3). Faith in Christ does not occur naturally within mankind. Faith must be given to us. It is given to us when we receive the Early Rain of the Spirit. It is one of the gifts of the Spirit as you mentioned in your quote of 1Cor 12:7-11.

But since the Early Rain of the Spirit is only given in "just measure", so is the faith that we receive from it:

Joel 2:23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in Jehovah your God; for he giveth you the former rain (Early Rain) in just measure, and he causeth to come down for you the rain, the former rain and the latter rain, in the first month.

Deu 32:2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain
(Early Rain) upon the tender herb (a babe in Christ), and as the showers (Latter Rain) upon the grass (a matured child of God):

Job 37:6 For he saith to the snow, Be thou on the earth; likewise to the small rain
(Early Rain), and to the great rain (Latter Rain) of his strength.


When a believer receives the Latter Rain of the Spirit (the Great Rain), their faith will then be increased:

2Cor 10:15 Not boasting of things without our measure, that is, of other men's labours; but having hope, when your faith is increased, that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule abundantly,

Paul is referring to the time when an Elect believer in the church receives the Latter Rain of the Spirit. This is when their faith is increased.

One final point worth noting:
When a believer receives the Latter Rain of the Spirit and has their spiritual blindness healed, they will "see" the Abomination of Desolation that had previously occurred when the spirit of anti-Christ entered them.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the Abomination of Desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand.

If a believer has not seen the Abomination of Desolation, they have NOT received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (Latter Rain).

Also at this time, the "man of sin" (themselves) is revealed to them:

2Thes 2:8 And then shall that Wicked (man of sin) be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

The verse below also mentions this same event:

1Sam 12:17 Is it not wheat harvest to day? I will call unto the LORD, and he shall send thunder and RAIN (the Latter Rain); that ye may perceive and see that your wickedness is great, which ye have done in the sight of the LORD, in asking you a king.

The day of the harvest is when a fallen away Elect believer is saved. It is when the "ends of the ages" come upon them:

1Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened to them as types, and have been written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come.

The "ends of the ages" is the time of the harvest and is when a person is converted & saved. The events that lead up to an Elect believer's moment of salvation is what Christ is teaching in Matthew chapter 24. He is not teaching about outward world events that "many" believe will happen at the end of this present age. The only prophesied event that will happen at the actual end of this present age is the bodily resurrection from the grave. All other end-time prophesies are spiritually fulfilled within each Elect believer during their lifetime.

Joe
 
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Godslittleservant

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This is very discouraging for me to hear. When we are shown proof from Scripture that the doctrine we cling to is not biblically true, why do some react in this manner? Why don't you try to prove from Scripture how I am "far off on this"? If you cannot prove this from the Bible, then why do you refuse to consider that I have given you truth, that I've shown comes from the Word of God? You have a Bible with verses that prove the gifts that come from the Holy Spirit come only to those who have the Spirit in them, you don't have to take my word for it, in fact I would advise you not to. But unless you seek for yourself, you will forever remain in error, believing the gift is the Holy Spirit coming upon them and never understand the gift(s) of the Spirit come through the Spirit already in us. We only have these Spiritual gifts when we have the Holy Spirit by being born again when we believe and repent of our sins and turn to Christ for eternal life.
When we are shown proof from Scripture that the doctrine we cling to is not biblical true, why do some react in this manner?
First off this is directed to me and is false you have not proven that the doctrine we cling to is not biblical true," it is really you who are at fault of a false understanding of the scripture.

Why don't you try to prove from Scripture how I am "far off on this"?
I have tried to show you where you are off on what scripture is saying but you cannot see because you only see your preconceived ideal of what scripture is saying to you. We use the same scripture but understand it completely differently and there is only one truth to scripture so we cannot both be right. Therefore we must let scripture teach us and us not teach scripture.

If you cannot prove this from the Bible, then why do you refuse to consider that I have given you truth, that I've shown comes from the Word of God?
I have proven with the scripture that you have falsely interpreted the scriptures but you cannot see or follow you just jump to your preconceived ideal and do not follow the context of the study. I know you can say the same of me so we have to let scripture settle our difference and that could take pages. I see it as you who 'refuse to consider that I have given you truth, that I've shown comes from the Word of God?'

You have a Bible with verses that prove the gifts that come from the Holy Spirit come only to those who have the Spirit in them, you don't have to take my word for it, in fact I would advise you not to.
I have given you scriptural proof that the indwelling is given through the baptism in the name of Jesus Christ and you refuse to accept it. So do we start over and see the difference from scripture on the gifts of the spirit versus the indwelling spirit? The indwelling does not come with the power of witness gifts but it produces fruit of the spirit and the bible shows the difference. The power gifts of Mark 16:17-20 and Acts 1:8 are not the indwelling they are the spirit upon with signs to confirm to witness and the word makes it clear. The spirit gift of Acts 2:38 is the spirit himself the indwelling and is made clear from scripture there is a difference and we mus study to understand for the word will clearly prove that.

But unless you seek for yourself, you will forever remain in error, believing the gift is the Holy Spirit coming upon them and never understand the gift(s) of the Spirit come through the Spirit already in us. We only have these Spiritual gifts when we have the Holy Spirit by being born again when we believe and repent of our sins and turn to Christ for eternal life.
This is what I say about you as well."But unless you seek for yourself, you will forever remain in error,"
You said "believing the gift is the Holy Spirit coming upon them and never understand the gift(s) of the Spirit come through the Spirit already in us." This I think we are close but far apart and in order to come together we need to look closely at what each is saying. First we need to understand how we get the indwelling spirit then we can move to the gifts.

We only have these Spiritual gifts when we have the Holy Spirit by being born again when we believe and repent of our sins and turn to Christ for eternal life.
This is where we start to unite our thoughts for the way this is worded I cannot fully agree but the thought on "Spiritual gifts when we have the Holy Spirit " I can agree somewhat if we define the gifts for some I think are supernatural while others are not and we have to distinguish between the two.

"when we believe and repent of our sins and turn to Christ for eternal life." this we need to define by scripture to unite our thoughts for I can agree somewhat but am quite sure we disagree on how this is defined by scripture.
 

Peterlag

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Would your view be considered Dispensationalism?


I understand that we are not under the law that God gave to the Israelites alone through Moses.

I'm still waiting for an explanation from you about the tangible damage to the church that water baptism is causing.

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I have answered you and yet you keep asking. Water is damage to the church because it does not apply to Christians. Therefore is a fraud. A fake. It replaces the real truth of being baptized in the spirit.
 

St. SteVen

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I have answered you and yet you keep asking. Water is damage to the church because it does not apply to Christians. Therefore is a fraud. A fake. It replaces the real truth of being baptized in the spirit.
Jesus most likely wasn't born on December 25th.
Is it damaging to celebrate Christmas?

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MatthewG

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It's not that I would call it a view for cessation of the supernatural sign gifts, but a fulfillment view. According to Peter speaking in other tongues was foretold by the Prophet Joel. Saying "in the last days" all these things Peter writes would be fulfilled. Have all the things written by Peter quoting the prophesy of Joel come fully to pass on the day of Pentecost, the day that began "these last days"? No, if all that was foretold was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost, then Joel would not have said "in these last day(s). These last days only began at Pentecost, with the outpouring of the Spirit, and signs and wonders done by the apostles. (Acts 2:43 & 5:12)

The first sign given was outpouring of the Holy Spirit on all flesh. I would hope that you agree 'all' does not mean without exception, but without distinction. Not only on the Jews, but on mankind from every nation of the world. That day there were three thousand men from every nation under heaven who were added to the Church by faith (they believed the Gospel). They repented and believed in the name of Jesus Christ, and were baptized, and according to Peter they received the gift of the Holy Spirit. They did NOT speak in other tongues they had only to believe and be baptized to be added to those who were saved.

Acts 2:38-41 (KJV) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

The three thousand continued in fellowship and breaking of bread and prayers in the apostles doctrine. But the many signs and wonders were done by the apostles. There isn't even evidence that these three thousand souls had the ability to speak in other tongues, even though it is clear they were baptized and believed and received the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:42-47 (KJV) And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles. And all that believed were together, and had all things common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

There should be no doubt that the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on all flesh began on the day of Pentecost. But the gift of the Holy Spirit did not end on that day. The Holy Spirit coming to mankind clearly came to pass at Pentecost, and the Spirit continues to be in whosoever believes the Gospel and repents throughout these last days. Now the Holy Spirit comes into man without any outward signs or miracles. Believers no longer need a physical manifestation of His presence in us to know and believe that we have gone from being spiritually dead in trespasses and sins to being alive in Christ. And that we have entered the spiritual Kingdom of God.

The next promise of what shall come to pass in these "last days" is "your sons and your daughters shall prophesy" "And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy". This too was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost, when the apostles began to speak with other tongues under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. That's what prophesy is. The ability to foretell events and speak the things of God through His Spirit.

What about visions and dreams? Is there Biblical proof to support this sign too is taking place since the day of Pentecost in "these last days"? Acts 9:10 records that Ananias was given a vision. And Peter and Cornelius in Acts 10 were given a vision. And of course there is Paul, and Stephen saw a vision of heaven (Acts 7:56-60).

All that was spoken by Peter quoting the Prophet Joel has come to pass, is coming to pass and shall be during these last days the prophet foretells would come after the advent of the Messiah coming to earth, returning to heaven and sending His Spirit. The signs and miracles in the beginning had to be physically shown to authenticate the message and the messengers. Since we have the complete Word of God and His Spirit to guide us unto all truths since Pentecost, we no longer need a physical manifestation of His supernatural power. The power of the Spirit in us has not been done away. But that power is now made known spiritually and not physically.

The other tongues believers now speak is called the Gospel of Christ. Unknown language to the world before He came. Because the Word of God is the power of life for all who believe. That's the greatest sign gift, the miracle of man, who was spiritually dead in trespasses and sins, being spiritually taken from the power of our flesh, the world and Satan, darkness and death, from eternal damnation to eternal life and light through Christ. No, the supernatural power of the Holy Spirit in believers is still alive and well! He supernaturally works through His disciples as they go forth telling the wonderful supernatural works of God, foretelling of Christ coming again for judgment and the second death to all who reject Him through unbelief.

Good read, Rwb, While I do not believe that we as a generation today ever lives in the last days, something for sure that is promised is the last day of our life. Perhaps that is why Jesus stopped and told his apostles so many times along the side of the roads, and reminded them that even he was to pass away. Imagine the hopeless feeling, or wondering that all the apostles must have went through seeing Yeshua on the cross dead.
 
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