What is the initial evidence of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit?

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rwb

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1 Cor 14

Clearly the gift of speaking in diverse tongues was highly valued and sought for in the Corinthian Church at that time. No doubt because of what happened at Pentecost and among the earliest Gentile believers. But Paul continues to stress the more important gift of prophesy, that is, of understanding in interpreting God's will, was clearly the more valuable and desirable gift; for though speaking with tongues created more admiration, and garnered greater admiration to the speaker, yet prophesying was by far the most excellent gift.

He that speaks in an unknown tongue, in a language not understood, not explained or interpreted, speaks not to men, that is, not to the understanding of men, for none understand him, but to God only, He alone understands him, and though in the Spirit he speaks mysteries, or the deep things of God, yet all this is not to edification, being not understood by the church. Which is why Paul continues to empathize having the gift of prophesy is far greater.

Though it is the desire of Paul that all in the Church have the gift of many different languages, because that would enable them to prophesy to a variety of different tongues through known languages. Unless people can understand the language (tongue) being prophesied none are edified unless there is one to translate. So, Paul forbids the speaking in unknown tongues in the Church without an interpreter, and then in order and one at a time and then by one or two only so the whole Church can be edified.

The language spoken in the Church whether preaching, singing or praying should be in a known language of the people hearing, or with one to interpret what is said, sang and prayed that they might be edified.

1 Corinthians 14:21-25 (KJV) In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad? But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

The gift of tongues has moved so far away from the original purpose for which it was sent that many have fallen in to great deception regarding the gift. For that reason Churches today should join Paul and maintain a strong adherence to the gift of tongues. The only time unknown tongues should be tolerated in the Chruch IMO is when it is known to be a language spoken by a man and if the language is not understood there must be an interpreter. What we have in many churches today is nothing more than babble that makes no sense.
 
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Godslittleservant

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Well I look at knowledge passing when your dead. You cant pass any knowledge on when your dead. We have all are knowledge from the bible, but all peoples are dead and gone. Cant get anymore than we got now, aside from the spirit, but when we dead the knowledge to pass on ceases.

Perhaps you right though, I suppose: :p Perhaps I am just a whole batch of crazy, nonsense, Tommy Cool.


It begs to question why cant i faithfully heal my blind son (i dont have one), but why couldnt even the faithful preacher on stage even let us up there.
These are supernatural gifts knowledge being one of them meaning it is knowledge coming directly from God in which has ceased for he only talked to us through the Apostles which are now all gone we are left with the recorded word.
 

Godslittleservant

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1Cor 14 -


Only if I could be convinced my doctrinal position is not supported by the Scripture. I've changed my doctrinal positions when shown that what I believed to be true caused contradiction into the Word of God. I don't believe we should change what we believe for unity, but for truth. One example where I had to change what I had been taught was biblical truth, is that we are not eternally secure in Christ. After being convinced by the abundance of Scripture, I could not continue to believe a doctrine that forced contradiction into the Word of God. Unity in the body of Christ is very important and worthy to be sought, but unity at the price of truth comes from deception, where one is either deceived or is the deceiver.
so true no truer words ever spoken amen brother
 
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Godslittleservant

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1 Cor 14

Clearly the gift of speaking in diverse tongues was highly valued and sought for in the Corinthian Church at that time. No doubt because of what happened at Pentecost and among the earliest Gentile believers. But Paul continues to stress the more important gift of prophesy, that is, of understanding in interpreting God's will, was clearly the more valuable and desirable gift; for though speaking with tongues created more admiration, and garnered greater admiration to the speaker, yet prophesying was by far the most excellent gift.

He that speaks in an unknown tongue, in a language not understood, not explained or interpreted, speaks not to men, that is, not to the understanding of men, for none understand him, but to God only, He alone understands him, and though in the Spirit he speaks mysteries, or the deep things of God, yet all this is not to edification, being not understood by the church. Which is why Paul continues to empathize having the gift of prophesy is far greater.

Though it is the desire of Paul that all in the Church have the gift of many different languages, because that would enable them to prophesy to a variety of different tongues through known languages. Unless people can understand the language (tongue) being prophesied none are edified unless there is one to translate. So, Paul forbids the speaking in unknown tongues in the Church without an interpreter, and then in order and one at a time and then by one or two only so the whole Church can be edified.

The language spoken in the Church whether preaching, singing or praying should be in a known language of the people hearing, or with one to interpret what is said, sang and prayed that they might be edified.

1 Corinthians 14:21-25 (KJV) In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad? But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

The gift of tongues has moved so far away from the original purpose for which it was sent that many have fallen in to great deception regarding the gift. For that reason Churches today should join Paul and maintain a strong adherence to the gift of tongues. The only time unknown tongues should be tolerated in the Chruch IMO is when it is known to be a language spoken by a man and if the language is not understood there must be an interpreter. What we have in many churches today is nothing more than babble that makes no sense.
This is true the tongues is nothing more than a different language it would be like a Cherokee Indian coming into a church of only English speaking people and talked in the Cherokee language no one would have a clue what he was saying unless someone knew the language and could interpret it for the rest. Tongues is only a foreign language that is what the bible teaches.
 
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St. SteVen

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1Cor 14 -


Only if I could be convinced my doctrinal position is not supported by the Scripture. ... Unity in the body of Christ is very important and worthy to be sought, but unity at the price of truth comes from deception, where one is either deceived or is the deceiver.
If you wouldn't change your position in the cause of doctrinal unity, why should anyone else?
It REALLY isn't that important, is it?

/
 

rwb

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If you wouldn't change your position in the cause of doctrinal unity, why should anyone else?
It REALLY isn't that important, is it?

/

I would not encourage anyone to change their doctrinal beliefs for the sake of unity. If we are not thoroughly convicted through the abundance of study and prayer that the doctrine we cling to is biblical, then we should most assuredly think twice about clinging to a doctrine we don't really know is truth or has been proven contradictive. Truth matters! Christ says we are to love in Word, deed and truth.

1 John 3:18-21 (KJV) My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
 

St. SteVen

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I would not encourage anyone to change their doctrinal beliefs for the sake of unity.
Good. That's what I wanted to see you say.
I think the only unity we can hope to achieve is in respecting the hard earned positions of others.
Personally, I respect the doctrinal opinion of anyone that has done their homework and arrived at a position.
My doctrinal opinions have changed over the years, so might theirs.

/
 

Godslittleservant

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What are that chances that there will be consensus on that in our lifetime?

/
None at all if we do not try but the scriptures are truth and life and we must study to show ourselves approved. If we allow and study the scriptures we can can to the truth but we have to really rely on what the scriptures say and not what we wish they say.

For example Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
It clearly says that "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;" but I hear some some that it does not mean that because it says if you do not believe you will be damned but does not say if you are not baptized you will be damned.

It is the trying to avoid what is said that causes division in the truth the truth is it says "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" that is clear teaching of scripture and echoed elsewhere in the holy word it is a believers baptism only so yes if you do not believe you will not be baptized that is common sense. The message is if you do not believe nothing will save you for you must believe for baptism to have any merit because it is all about the cross that is where it gets its meaning.

So yes truth matters and we have to unite in the truth for that is the only faith that was once delivered.

We must accept the truth in all scripture and head to it to make it harmonize rather than to make it harmonize with our thoughts. Scripture will explain itself if we let it.
 
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Peterlag

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Water baptism is a bomb that has blown the local churches into pieces? How so?

/

Do you guys ever read anything that I write? You folks seem to ask for the same stuff I already provided. Here it is again...

To be led by the spirit is to not be under the yoke of bondage with the extreme of legalism, seeking the works of the flesh from the old covenant concerning the past Law administration that was written to Israel.
 

St. SteVen

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St. SteVen said:
Water baptism is a bomb that has blown the local churches into pieces? How so?
Do you guys ever read anything that I write? You folks seem to ask for the same stuff I already provided. Here it is again...

To be led by the spirit is to not be under the yoke of bondage with the extreme of legalism, seeking the works of the flesh from the old covenant concerning the past Law administration that was written to Israel.
That still doesn't explain why water baptism is a bomb that has blown the local churches into pieces.
Some Christians observe a seventh day Sabbath. That's old covenant law. No harm done. IMHO

/
 

rwb

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What are that chances that there will be consensus on that in our lifetime?

/

As long as we focus is on the Word of God, there will never be consensus or even peace in our lifetime.

Matthew 10:34 (KJV) Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Ephesians 6:17 (KJV) And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
 

rwb

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None at all if we do not try but the scriptures are truth and life and we must study to show ourselves approved. If we allow and study the scriptures we can can to the truth but we have to really rely on what the scriptures say and not what we wish they say.

For example Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
It clearly says that "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;" but I hear some some that it does not mean that because it says if you do not believe you will be damned but does not say if you are not baptized you will be damned.

It is the trying to avoid what is said that causes division in the truth the truth is it says "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" that is clear teaching of scripture and echoed elsewhere in the holy word it is a believers baptism only so yes if you do not believe you will not be baptized that is common sense. The message is if you do not believe nothing will save you for you must believe for baptism to have any merit because it is all about the cross that is where it gets its meaning.

So yes truth matters and we have to unite in the truth for that is the only faith that was once delivered.

We must accept the truth in all scripture and head to it to make it harmonize rather than to make it harmonize with our thoughts. Scripture will explain itself if we let

The problem, as I see it, does not come from not accepting what is written, the problem is rightly dividing what is written so that we do not introduce contradiction into the Word of God.

The question that comes immediately to mind when I read "he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" is what baptism is in view here? Is it water or the baptism of the Holy Spirit that comes through Christ? I asked this knowing there are many who profess to believe and even submit to water baptism who are not saved. The way I have come to understand this statement is that we must not only believe in Christ, but our belief cannot be like that of the devils, it must be accompanied by baptism of the Holy Spirit for salvation, eternal life.

Knowing that many will read this statement as saying that water baptism with true believing is needed for man to be saved. That forces contradiction into the Word of God, because Christ tells us the only thing required of mankind for eternal life (salvation) is to live and believe in Him.
 

Godslittleservant

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The problem, as I see it, does not come from not accepting what is written, the problem is rightly dividing what is written so that we do not introduce contradiction into the Word of God.

The question that comes immediately to mind when I read "he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" is what baptism is in view here? Is it water or the baptism of the Holy Spirit that comes through Christ? I asked this knowing there are many who profess to believe and even submit to water baptism who are not saved. The way I have come to understand this statement is that we must not only believe in Christ, but our belief cannot be like that of the devils, it must be accompanied by baptism of the Holy Spirit for salvation, eternal life.

Knowing that many will read this statement as saying that water baptism with true believing is needed for man to be saved. That forces contradiction into the Word of God, because Christ tells us the only thing required of mankind for eternal life (salvation) is to live and believe in Him.
and here we go so just how is one baptized with baptism of the Holy Spirit if the indwelling spirit is given through the baptism in the name of Christ as stated in Acts 2:38 then how is one baptized with the holy ghost? It is you that said that the power gifts some call as baptism of the holy ghost is not the baptism in the holy ghost but that the spirit is given through the water baptism in Christ name so now you have confused me as to what you are saying.
 

Peterlag

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St. SteVen said:
Water baptism is a bomb that has blown the local churches into pieces? How so?

That still doesn't explain why water baptism is a bomb that has blown the local churches into pieces.
Some Christians observe a seventh day Sabbath. That's old covenant law. No harm done. IMHO

/

No wonder many of you folks don't understand what I write. Is it really true that you don't know the difference between the old covenant and the new? Here I will give it to you from the Apostle Paul...

Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
 

Godslittleservant

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Matthew 28:19 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

What baptism is this??
 

rwb

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and here we go so just how is one baptized with baptism of the Holy Spirit if the indwelling spirit is given through the baptism in the name of Christ as stated in Acts 2:38 then how is one baptized with the holy ghost? It is you that said that the power gifts some call as baptism of the holy ghost is not the baptism in the holy ghost but that the spirit is given through the water baptism in Christ name so now you have confused me as to what you are saying.

I don't understand exactly what you're saying here. We are saved by the Holy Spirit (baptism) when we hear the Gospel preached and through the power of the Holy Spirit we believe the Gospel. So he that believes and is baptized through the power of the Word and Spirit are saved. Not all who say they believe and are baptized in water are saved. They are likened to those who hear the Word (seed) that falls on stony soil (hardened heart). They appear to believe for a while, but then they fall away because their faith (belief) was superficial and could not endure to the end.

Matthew 13:20-22 (KJV) But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

Hope this clears it up for you?
 

rwb

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Matthew 28:19 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

What baptism is this??

Trying to say it better, the ordinance of water baptism is not to be saved. It is to continue to point the Church to Christ, and to separate the Church from the world of unbelievers.

Matthew 28:19-20 (KJV) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
 

Godslittleservant

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I don't understand exactly what you're saying here. We are saved by the Holy Spirit (baptism) when we hear the Gospel preached and through the power of the Holy Spirit we believe the Gospel. So he that believes and is baptized through the power of the Word and Spirit are saved. Not all who say they believe and are baptized in water are saved. They are likened to those who hear the Word (seed) that falls on stony soil (hardened heart). They appear to believe for a while, but then they fall away because their faith (belief) was superficial and could not endure to the end.

Matthew 13:20-22 (KJV) But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

Hope this clears it up for you?
One how can we judge as to who is saved and who is not?
Second is Acts 2:38 the point that sins are remitted and the indwelling spirit is given as it states or am I missing something?
Third is not the water baptism in Christ name per Acts 2:38 not the spirit baptism that Jesus was to baptize with (meaning the giving of the spirit) that John the baptist was talking about?
Fourth if Acts 2:38 is not the baptism that John the baptist was talking about and that Matthew 28:19 and Mark 16;16 and Luke 24::47 are speaking of which one is show scripture to support?
 

Godslittleservant

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Trying to say it better, the ordinance of water baptism is not to be saved. It is to continue to point the Church to Christ, and to separate the Church from the world of unbelievers.

Matthew 28:19-20 (KJV) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Then the scripture did not mean that the baptism in the name of Jesus Christ was indeed for the remission of sin and the giving of the indwelling spirit as it says in Acts 2:38 that truth is not a truth as recorded but it need to be read through a different understanding?

Forgive me but I mean it clearly says that, it is not hard to see it is clearly written but it is not truth?