What Is "Predestination"? How Does It Shape Your Daily Life?

[GracePeace]

I was referring to the language used in Ro 5,6, and the reason eternal life is afforded us (referred to as a "gift") there is in response to our natural state/gift of slavery to God in Christ that results in holiness.

@Hazelelponi
NASB Romans 6
22But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

So, bc we're in Christ, there is a different law at work in us (Ro 8:2), a working of good, a slavery to God, that is not ourselves, but God, though when God works in us, it results in us working (ie, even the desire to do good, before doing it (as also Christ judges hate as equal to murder), is itself work we are working as a result of God's working), and the holiness produced by that working is rewarded with eternal life, but it's called a "gift", whereas the death we had been repaid for the deeds Sin worked in us, when we were in Adam, is categorically "wages".

 

[GracePeace]

@Hazelelponi
NASB Romans 6
22But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

So, bc we're in Christ, there is a different law at work in us (Ro 8:2), a working of good, a slavery to God, that is not ourselves, but God, though when God works in us, it results in us working (ie, even the desire to do good, before doing it (as also Christ judges hate as equal to murder), is itself work we are working as a result of God's working), and the holiness produced by that working is rewarded with eternal life, but it's called a "gift", whereas the death we had been repaid for the deeds Sin worked in us, when we were in Adam, is categorically "wages".

@Hazelelponi In other words, God "wears" us, like clothing.

I had angrily asked God how Paul could say "ridiculous nonsense" that he worked, but it wasn't him (1 Co 15). "He's just trying to preserve his NONSENSE of 'saved by faith' while actually practicing salvation by works, but he doesn't want to admit it!" I said, "Show me ONE thing on earth that does not do what it does! Show me ONE example!" Clothes move around everywhere humans do... yet they themselves do none of the moving.

Lol!

There is a lot that can be arrived at through this--hence we are God's righteousness (righteousness is a garment), and God is our garment (" put on Christ ") bc He is our righteousness, bc we're in Him and He's in us!

 

[GracePeace]

It's interesting that men are said to receive "gifts" from heaven related to their service to God after salvation--"not all men are able to accept this, only those to whom it is given", "but each one has his gift".

How are they not able to "accept" it? They're not able to "accept" it bc they cannot do the "godliness" "with contentment".

So, the things the lazy servant didn't do must have been things he would have had joy and contentment in doing--defining the characteristic of life before God.

So, while it's true that walking in the manner in which the gifts God has given us does actually determine salvation (the lazy servant has the talent that had been given to him stripped from him and he is sent to hell), the lifestyle lived by the gifts given us isn't something we are to live motivated by fear (as is elsewhere warned against (Judges 7:2)), it's something that is a desire God is working in us, not a fear working in us, because God is not austere, as if expecting something from us that He Himself did not work in us.

Christ says it's His food to do the will of Him Who sent Him--it's technically true that death will result from not eating, but no one (under normal circumstances) sits down to eat motivated by fear, thinking, "I'm saving my life by eating this food!" They just enjoy it. And Biblically, God won't work when there's fearfulness (Jd 7), bc it has something to do with the flesh being relied upon, not trusting God, which results in God being denied the glory and man stealing God's glory for God's acts God does. This is how the work that someone lacking faith works is described as "slavery" (there's no grace in it--God isn't performing it) and is motivated by fear (Ro 8).

So, potentially, you could be doing "right" things that result in good outcomes, yet bc they're being forced by fear, not done freely with joy, or in peace and contentment (maybe bc in your mind you're trying to do what Christ already did), they are disqualified works. Like the knowledge of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil wasn't necessarily inaccurate, but it couldn't be done with the right spirit, so it was only able to produce disqualified deeds.

Sorry for the tangential nature of my comments, but I'm just getting some understanding.

 

[marks]

"not all men are able to accept this, only those to whom it is given"

Matthew 19:3-12 KJV
3) The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?
4) And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5) And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
6) Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
7) They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
8) He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
9) And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
10) His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.
11) But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.
12) For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

This part has a context of it's own. It looks to me that you are misapplying it.

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

Matthew 19:3-12 KJV
3) The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?
4) And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5) And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
6) Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
7) They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
8) He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
9) And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
10) His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.
11) But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.
12) For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

This part has a context of it's own. It looks to me that you are misapplying it.

Much love!

Based on what? I really don't see your objection.

 

[marks]

Based on what?

Matthew 19:3-12 KJV
3) The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?
4) And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5) And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
6) Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
7) They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
8) He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
9) And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
10) His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.
11) But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.
12) For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

Matthew 19:3-12 KJV
3) The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?
4) And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5) And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
6) Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
7) They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
8) He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
9) And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
10) His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.
11) But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.
12) For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

Much love!

The saying is "it's better not to be married", bc He goes on to discuss eunuchs--same as Paul in 1 Co 7.

 

[GracePeace]

OK, that's all you are referring to? Whether to be married or single?

Much love!

The saying "it's better to not get married" was what CHRIST referred to when He said "not all men are able to accept it"--you tried to say He referred to His overruling of Torah's concession of "any cause" divorce, but it wasn't about that (it's not an "optional" teaching that only some men can accept, but others can't, so they go on rejecting Christ's ruling lol living in sin).

 

[marks]

The saying "it's better to not get married" was what CHRIST referred to when He said "not all men are able to accept it"--you tried to say He referred to His overruling of Torah's concession of "any cause" divorce, but it wasn't about that (it's not an "optional" teaching that only some men can accept, but others can't, so they go on rejecting Christ's ruling lol living in sin).

9) And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
10) His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.
11) But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.

His own saying, that's what they were having difficulty accepting.

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

OK, that's all you are referring to? Whether to be married or single?

Much love!

The point is that "not all men can accept it" bc if they tried to live it they would be miserable, not content ("godliness with contentment"). What I'm getting after is what a godly life is meant to be characterized by.

 

[GracePeace]

9) And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
10) His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.
11) But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.

His own saying, that's what they were having difficulty accepting.

Much love!

Nope. The saying that only some men are given the gift of accepting is "its better not to be married"--same as Paul says in 1 Co 7 ("but each man has his own gift"). That's why Jesus goes on to talk about eunuchs.

 

[GracePeace]

9) And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
10) His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.
11) But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.

His own saying, that's what they were having difficulty accepting.

Much love!

When Jesus says "not all men are given the gift of accepting this saying", He's referring to something that is OPTIONAL. Following Christ's overruling of the Torah is not OPTIONAL. To go against it would constitute sin, whereas to be unable to live as a eunuch is not sin. And again He goes on to discuss eunuchs, which is an extrapolation of "its better not to be married".

 

[GracePeace]

Not all can accept that marriage is one man and one woman for life. So if you have a problem with that, see Jesus' solution:


Much love!

Nope, the issue is "it's better to not be married" as the conclusion reached from having heard Christ's ruling.

 

[GracePeace]

Interesting hermeneutic you have, but I don't agree. Jesus referred to His own statement.

Much love!

It's not at all "interesting", it's plainly true. Lol

 

[GracePeace]

Interesting hermeneutic you have, but I don't agree. Jesus referred to His own statement.

Much love!

What is "interesting" is that, on your reading, the fact that Paul teaches the exact same thing is merely "coincidental". Your hermeneutic is a hermeneutic that tolerates such "coincidences", I've noticed. Ridiculous lol

 

[GracePeace]

I find it creative, but inaccurate.

Much love!

OK thanks for informing me of your "findings". Like your "findings" from Scripture, they're incoherent nonsense.

 

[GracePeace]

That is your word, not mine. Best to not try to put words in my mouth, you'll find that you are really just talking to yourself.

Much love!

It's the unavoidable conclusion of your abuse of the text--if that fact is unpalatable to you, then change your mind.

But if you hate the truth that much (as you've demonstrated a number of times already), do I really need to spend my time discussing with you? No, not really.

 

[Hazelelponi]

@GracePeace - sorry I ran off unexpectedly, my husband had some thoughts I needed to address.

At any rate, I'm back. Give me a while to respond.

 

[GracePeace]

@GracePeace - sorry I ran off unexpectedly, my husband had some thoughts I needed to address.

At any rate, I'm back. Give me a while to respond.

Cool. Yeah, that confused me a little. lol

 

[Hazelelponi]

@Hazelelponi
NASB Romans 6
22But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

So, bc we're in Christ, there is a different law at work in us (Ro 8:2), a working of good, a slavery to God, that is not ourselves, but God, though when God works in us, it results in us working (ie, even the desire to do good, before doing it (as also Christ judges hate as equal to murder), is itself work we are working as a result of God's working), and the holiness produced by that working is rewarded with eternal life, but it's called a "gift", whereas the death we had been repaid for the deeds Sin worked in us, when we were in Adam, is categorically "wages".

Okay, and I've read your other post too about clothing, I do believe I know what you're saying...

So, your right and your wrong about God wearing us. It's just a little upside down because your not thinking of something...

It's not mindless, it's never mindless, and never based on anything but our love for Him, and for what He did for us.

We were forgiven MUCH!

So much it's mind-blowing, most people don't even realize the half, I'm sure I don't even recognize the half of what I was forgiven. and what does Scripture say about those who are forgiven much?

We love much...

So everything is based completely on that.

Yes, God absolutely has to open our hearts to His understanding, but once we really understand? Is there another option we would even want to make?

it's so beyond imagining that anyone even could, honestly. Could you just go back to your old life and pretend none of this matters to you? Just the idea is laughable.

I may not do this thing God has given me perfectly, but I'd die before I'd give it up.

So back to clothes. The Bible compares what we do with Christ is to put Him on like clothing, Christ is the clothes in Scripture.

Why is He the clothes and not us? Because it's not mindless.

if it was mindless we'd be open to unclean spirits and wouldn't be able to discern, because the flesh is still here.

Think of that... For real, it's important because we do see it all the time, the end of mindless openness to things that would wear us.

So what do you have all around you as someone who believes as we do?

Is there any of us who is not surrounded by religious materials with which to find checks and balances to what the Holy Spirit leads us to?

We are constantly in the Scriptures .. We talk to our brothers and sisters before setting out, we read the historical men of God.

there's nothing about this we are not actively and mindfully participating in, in such a way that while it is God's work, it's still us wearing the clothes, instead of the other way around.