What does it mean to be born again?

[Johann]

I don't see any other way to interpret it according to the grammar in which he speaks, and according to the statements he makes. Sin is in the flesh, we are in the Spirit, we have power over our flesh because of Christ. To the extent that we will be actively trusting in this truth, we will walk in it. Momentary lapses snowball in our minds because we think them important, condemning voices cause us to doubt, and we are already in the fleshy mind.

As quickly as we return to trusting in the fulness of our reconciliation in Christ, and giving over to Him any concerns we have, the more quickly we return to walking in His Spirit.

Much love!

"consider the members of your earthly body as dead"
NKJV"put to death your members which are on the earth"
NRSV"put to death whatever in you is earthly"
TEV"you must put to death the earthly desires at work in you"
NJB"you must kill everything in you that is earthly"

This is an aorist active imperative which denotes urgency (cf. Col. 3:8,12).

Col 3:5 Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.

Again, the Aorist Active Imperative

It begins a section which emphasizes the need for believers to strip themselves of evil once and for all (Col. 3:5-11).

ɪst ; ˈɛrɪst ) noun. 1. a past tense of Greek verbs, denoting an action without indicating whether completed, continued, or repeated.


Paul often used clothing as a metaphor for the spiritual life (cf. Rom. 6:6,11; 8:13; Eph. 4:22,24,25,31, possibly from Zechariah 3). Believers are to die to self, to sin, and to worldliness. The next section emphasizes that Christians should put on Christlike virtues (Col. 3:10-17).

Paul often characterized the sins of the old life and old man in lists which in many ways were similar to the Greek moralists (like the Stoics) of his day.
"put them all aside" This is an aorist middle imperative which denotes urgency. Believers must be different. Paul used clothing as a metaphor for a person's lifestyle choices. Believers are encouraged to take off the old life and lay it aside like a garment (cf. Col. 3:8,9; Eph. 4:22,25,31; James 1:21; 1 Pet. 2:1). They are to put on Christ (cf. Col. 3:10,12,14; Eph. 4:24: Rom. 13:14; Gal. 3:27). These believers were once controlled and dominated by their evil desires, but now, through Christ, they can turn from them (cf. Rom. 5-6).

"anger" This term means continuing, long-lasting, simmering anger (cf. 2 Cor. 12:20; Gal. 5:20; Eph. 4:31).

"wrath" This term means fast-burning anger or outburst of rage (cf. 2 Cor. 12:20; Gal. 5:20; Eph. 4:31).

"malice" This term means "vicious thoughts" (cf. Rom. 1:29; 1 Cor. 5:8; Eph. 4:31). It implies a desire to hurt others.

"slander and abusive speech" People are listening; our speech reflects who we really are (cf. Matt. 12:34-35; 15:11,18; Mark 7:20; Eph. 4:29; 5:4; James 2:3-12).

"the new self who is being renewed" This is a present passive participle with the implied agent being God or the Spirit. The Christian life is both a state (Eph. 2:5,8)
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
and a process of development (1 Cor. 1:18).

1Co 1:18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

This is the process, denied by most

Its goal is Christlikeness (cf. Rom. 8:29; Gal. 4:19; Eph. 1:4), being restored to the image of God. This "renewing" (cf. 2 Cor. 4:16 and the noun in Rom. 12:2 and Titus 3:5) is a work of God that each believer must allow, and must cooperate with God to perform it in them (like the "filling" of the Spirit, also a present passive participle in Eph. 5:18).
Rom 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Rom 8:14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

If ye live after the flesh, ye shall die; viz. eternally, and never partake of the glorious resurrection before spoken of. The godly themselves need this caution; they must not think, that because they are elected and justified, &c., that therefore they may do and live as they list.
Through the Spirit; i.e. by the grace and assistance of the Spirit.
Mortify; i.e. kill and put to death. It is not enough to forbear the actings of sin, but we must kill and crucify it. Sin may be left upon many considerations, and yet not mortified.
Evil deeds are called
the deeds of the body, because the body is so instrumental in the doing thereof. There are some, that by body here do understand the corrupt nature, the same that before in many places he calls the flesh: this was called, Rom_8:6, the body of sin, and here it is called the body.
Ye shall live; viz. eternally. See a parallel place, Rom_6:22 Gal_6:8 : see Rom_8:6.

Something to ponder and reflect upon, the flesh, mortified, Aorist, Active, Imperative--dead.

 

[Johann]

the flesh" is at war with the Spirit. Therefore Paul says that "the flesh" must be mortified or crucified. Which also means that there are times when the Christian will walk according to the flesh.

And this is very true, Rom 7 and there are "times".....when the Christian WILL walk in the flesh or according to the flesh.

However, having said that, we cannot ignore the Aorist, Active Imperative in the killing of the flesh and the deeds of the flesh and every time the flesh is mentioned in Scripture, it is Aorist Active Imperative yielding in Christ, allowing the Holy Spirit to deaden the flesh, and this is a once off event, as the Aorist and the Imperative explain.

the Jews (o) say, there is no captivity כגלות הנשמה, "like the captivity of the soul"; and nothing so grieving and afflictive to a good man as that is.

The apostle uses much such language as his countrymen do, who frequently represent man as having two principles in him, the one good, the other bad; the one they call יצר הרע, "the evil imagination", or corruption of nature; the other they call יצר הטוב, "the good imagination", or principle of grace and goodness;

which they say (p), are at continual war with each other, and the one is sometimes נשבה, "carried captive" by the other.

The good imagination, they say (q), is like to one that חבוש בבית חאסורין, "is bound in a prison"; as it is said, "out of prison he cometh to reign"; to which agrees what they say (r),
"how shall I serve my Creator whilst I am אסיר יצרי, "a captive to my corruption", and a servant to my lust?''

Gill.

Sounds like we have victory every time there is a temptation, a pulling in the flesh, promptings, a lustful look, and we can either choose to give in, or say no.

Says the holy writ

as 1:12 Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him.
Jas 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.
Jas 1:14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.
Jas 1:15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.
Jas 1:16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers.
Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change.
Jas 1:18 Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

 

[mailmandan]

#2.....This is the final answer.

How do you know?
Its because the "SON/Daughter" of God, is : """ IN CHRIST."""

Now look down, reader.
See your feet?
Body?
Where is that?
Its not in Christ....

See it?

So, the born again Spirit in IN CHRIST, "seated in heavenly places".

No sin found there...... = 1 John 3:9

and your body, is "dead because of sin"... and there are no dead bodies, "in Christ".
Not even one.
Not even "allah"...

The answer is certainly not #3.

 

[Lizbeth]

I have studied Romans 7 and to this day there is a debate that in this passage it is talking about Paul, the unregenerate man, others, Paul the born from above, personally, I think this was Paul the born from above describing the believers struggle, as I can identify with this, I might be incorrect..
Correct, we must examine ourselves daily, to see IF we are in the faith and to WORK out our own salvation with fear and trembling.

Shalom to you and family.
J.

Amen, I agree. Paul is writing to believers, and if we delight in the law of God after the inward man, i think that has to be because of regeneration. Our inner man isn't quickened to love the Lord and His ways of holiness otherwise.

 

[Johann]

Amen, I agree. Paul is writing to believers, and if we delight in the law of God after the inward man, i think that has to be because of regeneration. Our inner man isn't quickened to love the Lord and His ways of holiness otherwise.

And would you say @Lizbeth that in Rom 8 was the eureka experience of Paul, or that Paul was still aware of his Rom 7 experience IN Rom 8?

Lol! I know this might not come out the way I want to, since again, English is not my mother language.
J.

 

[Johann]

Lol! I know this might not come out the way I want to, since again, English is not my mother language.
J.

The textual evidence dealing with the question, "Is Paul referring to a saved or unsaved person in Rom. 7:14-25?" is as follows

1. Unsaved person

a. This was the interpretation of the early Greek speaking church Fathers

b. The following phrases support this view

(1) "I am of flesh," Rom. 7:14

(2) "sold into bondage to sin," Rom. 7:14

(3)"nothing good dwells in me," Rom. 7:18

(4) "making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members," Rom. 7:23

(5) "wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?" Rom. 7:24

c. The immediate context of Romans 6 is that we are free from the mastery of sin. The context of chap. 8 starts with "so then."

d. The absence of any reference to the Spirit or Christ until the close of this context (Rom. 7:25).

2. Saved person

a. This was the interpretation of Augustine, Calvin, and the Reformed tradition

b. The following phrases support this view

(1) "we know that the Law is spiritual," Rom. 7:14

(2) "I agree with the Law, confessing that it is good," Rom. 7:16

(3) "the good that I wish, I do not do...," Rom. 7:19

(4) "I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man," Rom. 7:22

Now here is something I did not noticed @Lizbeth

c. The larger context of Romans places Romans 7 in the section dealing with sanctification.

d. The obvious change of verb tenses from imperfect and aorists in Rom. 7:7-13 to the consistent use of the present tense in Rom. 7:14-24 imply a different and new section of Paul's life (i.e., conversion).

D. The more a believer strives toward Christlikeness, the more he experiences his/her own sinfulness. This paradox fits well this context and the personality of Paul (and, for that matter, most believers; for an opposite view see Gordon Fee, Paul, The Spirit, and the People of God).

A line from a Lutheran hymn by Henry Twells:

"And none, O Lord, has perfect rest,

For none is wholly free from sin;

And they who faint would serve Thee best

Are conscious most of wrong within."

These are the words from Bob Utley

I think Paul was struggling with his Pharisaic past which gave a structure to his presentation of "Law" and "sin/death." However, I am also impacted by my own struggle with temptation and sin after salvation. It has surely colored my interpretation. I think Gordon Fee, Paul, the Spirit, and the People of God, represents another valid Christian's experience and perspective. One thing I know, the tension or conflict between

1. old age - new age

2. old man - new man

3. law - spirit

has been dealt with in Christ! Victory is ours. Never focus on Romans 7 without noting Romans 6 and 8. Victory is ours in Him!

E. Sun (preposition in Rom. 8:32) compounds in Romans 8

v. 16 - sun + witness/testify

v. 17 - sun + heir

v. 17 - sun + suffer

v. 17 - sun + glorify

v. 22 - sun + groan

v. 22 - sun + birth pains

v. 26 - sun + take hold of

v. 28 - sun + work with/cooperate

v. 29 - sun +conformed

These compounds denote "joint participation with" or "cooperation with."

Your thoughts?

 

[Lizbeth]

Not so fast. There is a husk around the seed of Christ that needs to be broken...otherwise the promotion of that filtered condition leads to adding sin upon sin. Iniquity is adding in the flesh to what is of the Spirit. So people can say...see how holy I am...and yet they are filthy.

The outer man needs to be broken at the cross for the life contained in the seed to come out.

In Hebrew the word for " my bones" (atsmotay) also means "self". When we are crucified with Christ, our bones (self) come out of joint (See Ps. 22:14).
"I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels."


Now in Hebrews it says...

Heb. 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

The joints and marrow being disconnected is by crucifixion. The LXX makes that clearer (in Job) by translating (atsmotay) "my bones" in the statement about having soul and spirit being separated. Unfortunately the modern translations obscure the Heb. 4:12 reference in Job.



You are not seeing that the husk of the outer man stops the life from coming out. That's why Paul gloried in the cross and its power over the flesh.

You are not making the distinction between the perfection that is IN Christ and what is in you. By claiming that the perfection is in you...makes you a liar. Is the perfection found in Lizbeth? No. The perfection is found only in Christ. You would have to understand the difference between going somewhere to visit someone and someone coming to visit you. A person can visit you and you still have NO IDEA where that person lives. That is the case with MOST of Christendom.

God receives our sacrifice when we offer up our lives (outer man) to be dealt with by the cross. We are to offer up ourselves as a living sacrifice to God. He chooses whether we are ready to be translated into the higher walk...or not. We must persevere...asking, seeking, and knocking...NEVER faltering. As we do this we learn humility and the fear of the Lord. We are totally dependent on Him to take us in.

Now, compare that to the buffoonery found on this thread among those who claim this and that but are spiritually dead (or at least asleep).

On the contrary, I think I'm very slow, lol! Yes, and what I understand is that "we" are that husk containing the seed, our earthen vessel, that is our flesh and flesh nature (old man), which you call the outer man. So yes, the power of the flesh needs to be broken/torn. God helps us to that end through the chastisements that He brings...."who has suffered in the body is done with sin". Fasting also helps to this end, because it weakens the flesh, allowing us freer access to the spirit.

I do agree that it's potentially possible to enter a condition of complete victory, and we all should strive to grow as far as we can, working out our salvation with fear and trembling. Where the OT talks about binding the sacrifice with cords to the alter, I believe speaks to when the person becomes a living sacrifice and bondslave of Christ, with the flesh overcome and bound. In the meantime though, as Paul wrote in Romans we are delivered from the power of the flesh through the Holy Spirit, sin no longer has dominion over us....and this is true especially whenever we are in the spirit, yielded to Him.........the flesh is dormant at such times, temporarily dead so to speak, at rest, under His feet. The Holy Spirit (Christ's spirit, whose flesh died but rose again incorruptible, and therefore He has overcome and reigns supreme over it) has supremacy over the flesh and is able to bypasses the flesh, as it were. Many of us taste of this at various times, according to God's will and grace, even if we aren't walking in it all the time. (It just occurred to me that the apostle John said he was in the spirit on that Lord's day....is there anything we an infer from that, such as that maybe he wasn't always in the spirit 24/7? I don't know.)

Our inner man has been delivered and separated from the flesh through Christ. But then it becomes a question of crucifying the flesh, old man, outer man so that the inner man is expressed, manifested, we seem to agree on that. I believe there is a matter of degree and growth, since the scripture speaks of taking the land little by little, but that there potentially can come a day when that work is finished. But we must not despise the day of small beginnings, or despise precious and sincere brothers and sisters, such as we have here, who are following hard after the Lord all in our various individual stages of growth along the way.

 

[Johann]

The answer is certainly not #3.

I would love to give you my answer, but I would be trolled and inundated of "how wrong I am"
J.

 

[Lizbeth]

And would you say @Lizbeth that in Rom 8 was the eureka experience of Paul, or that Paul was still aware of his Rom 7 experience IN Rom 8?

Lol! I know this might not come out the way I want to, since again, English is not my mother language.
J.

I think I understand the question, but if I'm not getting it right, it's no fault of your English brother, just my brain. .....I don't know for sure about Paul, he was speaking of himself as an example, whether past or present, but I think for the vast majority of believers it is that we are still aware of our Rom 7 experience even though we have blessed times of being in Rom 8....and that he was speaking to us. Hope that makes sense..? :) The potential is available to us for Rom 8 24/7, but the reality for most of us is that we are not always availing ourselves of the Spirit. Even though in another sense we are always in the spirit since the spirit of Christ dwells in us, but I consider that is speaking of another angle or on another depth so to speak (i'm not saying that well).

 

[Johann]

On the contrary, I think I'm very slow, lol!

Not so fast! slow you ain't, definitely mature.

 

[Johann]

Rom 7 experience even though we have blessed times of being in Rom 8....and that he was speaking to us. Hope that makes sense..? :) The potential is available to us for Rom 8 24/7, but the reality for most of us is that we are not always availing ourselves of the Spirit. Even though in another sense we are always in the spirit since the spirit of Christ dwells in us, but I consider that is speaking of another angle or on another depth so to speak (i'm not saying that well).

You express yourself fluently, and wait....I concur with you, and now all hell is going to break loose! Lol!
God bless you sister
J.

 

[Lizbeth]

The textual evidence dealing with the question, "Is Paul referring to a saved or unsaved person in Rom. 7:14-25?" is as follows

1. Unsaved person

a. This was the interpretation of the early Greek speaking church Fathers

b. The following phrases support this view

(1) "I am of flesh," Rom. 7:14

(2) "sold into bondage to sin," Rom. 7:14

(3)"nothing good dwells in me," Rom. 7:18

(4) "making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members," Rom. 7:23

(5) "wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?" Rom. 7:24

c. The immediate context of Romans 6 is that we are free from the mastery of sin. The context of chap. 8 starts with "so then."

d. The absence of any reference to the Spirit or Christ until the close of this context (Rom. 7:25).

2. Saved person

a. This was the interpretation of Augustine, Calvin, and the Reformed tradition

b. The following phrases support this view

(1) "we know that the Law is spiritual," Rom. 7:14

(2) "I agree with the Law, confessing that it is good," Rom. 7:16

(3) "the good that I wish, I do not do...," Rom. 7:19

(4) "I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man," Rom. 7:22

Now here is something I did not noticed @Lizbeth

c. The larger context of Romans places Romans 7 in the section dealing with sanctification.

d. The obvious change of verb tenses from imperfect and aorists in Rom. 7:7-13 to the consistent use of the present tense in Rom. 7:14-24 imply a different and new section of Paul's life (i.e., conversion).

D. The more a believer strives toward Christlikeness, the more he experiences his/her own sinfulness. This paradox fits well this context and the personality of Paul (and, for that matter, most believers; for an opposite view see Gordon Fee, Paul, The Spirit, and the People of God).

A line from a Lutheran hymn by Henry Twells:

"And none, O Lord, has perfect rest,

For none is wholly free from sin;

And they who faint would serve Thee best

Are conscious most of wrong within."

These are the words from Bob Utley

I think Paul was struggling with his Pharisaic past which gave a structure to his presentation of "Law" and "sin/death." However, I am also impacted by my own struggle with temptation and sin after salvation. It has surely colored my interpretation. I think Gordon Fee, Paul, the Spirit, and the People of God, represents another valid Christian's experience and perspective. One thing I know, the tension or conflict between

1. old age - new age

2. old man - new man

3. law - spirit

has been dealt with in Christ! Victory is ours. Never focus on Romans 7 without noting Romans 6 and 8. Victory is ours in Him!

E. Sun (preposition in Rom. 8:32) compounds in Romans 8

v. 16 - sun + witness/testify

v. 17 - sun + heir

v. 17 - sun + suffer

v. 17 - sun + glorify

v. 22 - sun + groan

v. 22 - sun + birth pains

v. 26 - sun + take hold of

v. 28 - sun + work with/cooperate

v. 29 - sun +conformed

These compounds denote "joint participation with" or "cooperation with."

Your thoughts?

I think we are sold under sin.....and still are even after being born again....that is not we ourselves, not our inner man, but our flesh and flesh nature still is in the sense that sin still lives there...we know that is true since we have to battle it. IF I'm understanding some of what is being pointed out here. I hope that helps with this.....my circuits are starting to fry, lol, but I believe this came from the Lord in His kindness.

 

[Lizbeth]

Not so fast! slow you ain't, definitely mature.

Bless you brother! Outwardly wasting away, but His grace is sufficient. ;)

 

[Johann]

I think we are sold under sin.....and still are even after being born again....that is not we ourselves, not our inner man, but our flesh and flesh nature still is in the sense that sin still lives there...we know that is true since we have to battle it. IF I'm understanding some of what is being pointed out here. I hope that helps with this.....my circuits are starting to fry, lol, but I believe this came from the Lord in His kindness.

You have a blessed day @Lizbeth, my circuits are also fried, I am exhausted.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

I think we are sold under sin.....and still are even after being born again....that is not we ourselves, not our inner man, but our flesh and flesh nature still is in the sense that sin still lives there...we know that is true since we have to battle it. IF I'm understanding some of what is being pointed out here. I hope that helps with this.....my circuits are starting to fry, lol, but I believe this came from the Lord in His kindness.

Hello Lizbeth, I agree, also, Into captivity to the obedience of Christ - Those evil reasonings are destroyed. The mind itself, being overcome and taken captive, lays down all authority of its own, and entirely gives itself up to perform, for the time to come, to Christ its conqueror the obedience of faith."

2 Corinthians 10​

​

1 Now I Paul myself beseech you by the meekness and gentleness of Christ, who in presence am base among you, but being absent am bold toward you:

2 But I beseech you, that I may not be bold when I am present with that confidence, wherewith I think to be bold against some, which think of us as if we walked according to the flesh.

3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:

4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds

5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

7 Do ye look on things after the outward appearance? if any man trust to himself that he is Christ's, let him of himself think this again, that, as he is Christ's, even so are we Christ's.

8 For though I should boast somewhat more of our authority, which the Lord hath given us for edification, and not for your destruction, I should not be ashamed:

9 That I may not seem as if I would terrify you by letters.

10 For his letters, say they, are weighty and powerful; but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech contemptible.

11 Let such an one think this, that, such as we are in word by letters when we are absent, such will we be also in deed when we are present.

12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.

13 But we will not boast of things without our measure, but according to the measure of the rule which God hath distributed to us, a measure to reach even unto you.

14 For we stretch not ourselves beyond our measure, as though we reached not unto you: for we are come as far as to you also in preaching the gospel of Christ:

15 Not boasting of things without our measure, that is, of other men's labours; but having hope, when your faith is increased, that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule abundantly,

16 To preach the gospel in the regions beyond you, and not to boast in another man's line of things made ready to our hand.

17 But he that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

18 For not he that commendeth himself is approved, but whom the Lord commendeth.

Love, Walter and Debbie

 

[Episkopos]

On the contrary, I think I'm very slow, lol! Yes, and what I understand is that "we" are that husk containing the seed, our earthen vessel, that is our flesh and flesh nature (old man), which you call the outer man. So yes, the power of the flesh needs to be broken/torn. God helps us to that end through the chastisements that He brings...."who has suffered in the body is done with sin". Fasting also helps to this end, because it weakens the flesh, allowing us freer access to the spirit.

We can improve our situation through discipline and devotions. But these things were always available. On this thread I am speaking about the higher calling into which we have been regenerated to participate in.

I do agree that it's potentially possible to enter a condition of complete victory, and we all should strive to grow as far as we can, working out our salvation with fear and trembling.

Do you see that there is such a thing as the higher walk. A walk that is actually what Paul is referring to...which so many modern believers take to be a religious posturing and claim to have it by "faith." (Actually make-believe) I defend the truth at its depth because there is a bad outcome for those who lie about spiritual things.

We can go either way after we are born again...as I said in my video. We can go the way of humility...or iniquity. The presumption of perfection is going the wrong way. Humility sees the need...and goes to God for the full measure of grace. But nobody seems to trust that seeking God for His empowerment has any value. Hence the faith crisis in the modern church. Reality is seen as too hard.

Where the OT talks about binding the sacrifice with cords to the alter, I believe speaks to when the person becomes a living sacrifice and bondslave of Christ, with the flesh overcome and bound. In the meantime though, as Paul wrote in Romans we are delivered from the power of the flesh through the Holy Spirit, sin no longer has dominion over us

This is an example of reading yourself into the text...a practice that leads to iniquity. Instead you should say... Paul's testimony is... (Not Paul says that we...)

....and this is true especially whenever we are in the spirit, yielded to Him.........the flesh is dormant at such times, temporarily dead so to speak, at rest, under His feet. The Holy Spirit (Christ's spirit, whose flesh died but rose again incorruptible, and therefore He has overcome and reigns supreme over it) has supremacy over the flesh and is able to bypasses the flesh, as it were. Many of us taste of this at various times, according to God's will and grace, even if we aren't walking in it all the time. (It just occurred to me that the apostle John said he was in the spirit on that Lord's day....is there anything we an infer from that, such as that maybe he wasn't always in the spirit 24/7? I don't know.)

There is a 24/7 walk that ensues until a person sins a sin unto death (separation). Of course the devil will work overtime to get the saint to sin...bringing temptations that he/she never experienced before. And so often, the saint is immature and doesn't realize he/she is even being tempted. So we come OUT of the Spirit...and spend time in deep repentance and contemplation (sometimes for years) . That is, until we are permitted access back into Zion and the heavenly walk. A saint will go in and out of the Spirit walk a number of times before learning what it takes to remain there permanently. But each time the saint walks in the Spirit...it is a 24/7 perfection in Christ (even to the dreams at night) for however long he/she can remain there based on maturity. God's keeping power is very strong...lasting as long as a person doesn't sin unto death. We're talking years at a time as the maturity progresses.

I know of these things because I was never taught by men to doubt or to make believe I have something when I clearly do not.

So then, my ignorance saved me to actually encounter the living God and walk in Zion...as Jesus walked.

Our inner man has been delivered and separated from the flesh through Christ.

Only the cross has that power. And you need to go to the throne of God and beg the Lord for that separation. He will not kill your flesh on a whim. You have to be willing to pay the price. And God knows us better than anyone. A crucified person is DEAD...self-less as God is self-less. It isn't wise to claim something on that level while still walking as a mere human.

But then it becomes a question of crucifying the flesh, old man, outer man so that the inner man is expressed, manifested, we seem to agree on that. I believe there is a matter of degree and growth, since the scripture speaks of taking the land little by little, but that there potentially can come a day when that work is finished. But we must not despise the day of small beginnings, or despise precious and sincere brothers and sisters, such as we have here, who are following hard after the Lord all in our various individual stages of growth along the way.

I have said many times...the Old Man....is who we were before regeneration. But the outer man we retain UNTIL we go to the cross. False religious doctrines keep people from seeking the face of God. And people seem to hate to have to actually encounter the living God. They HATE that God requires their presence...why?

The hypocrisy and dishonesty lie in the fact that people who claim to have a "personal relationship" with God get into a real snit if you suggest that they need to seek God's face. They call that "works". Talk about a passive-aggressive Christianity. Does that mean these people were never regenerated...or that they have adopted such a bad doctrine that it makes them to be as rotten figs.

 

[Behold]

Who said I am using my own will power? I am relying on the Holy Spirit.

When a person has a sinning confessing issue, the issue is with the belief system.
This has to be changed .
So, whomever has led you into the issue, is the problem.
Its bad theology, and you are the victim, with the end result being..."sinning and confessing", and not knowing how to stop.

 

[Episkopos]

When a person has a sinning confessing issue, the issue is with the belief system.
This has to be changed .
So, whomever has led you into the issue, is the problem.
Its bad theology, and you are the victim, with the end result being..."sinning and confessing", and not knowing how to stop.

Stop sinning? Or stop confessing?

 

[Behold]

Stop sinning? Or stop confessing?

Christ dealt with all the sin of the born again, 2000 yrs ago.
So, confess what?

Romans 4:8 says that God does not charge sin to the born again.
Why not?
Because they are not under the law, as only the law has the dominion RIGHT to classify "sin" and "sinner".
The born again are under Grace, and the dominion of Grace has no Moses Law in it., because "Christ has redeemed the born again from the Curse of the Law".

There is no Moses Law in HEAVEN.
And the born again are "in Christ" and "one with God".
And where are they?

And because that has happened, Romans 4:8 is a eternal fact.
God can't charge sin to the born again, as He's already charged all sin to Jesus on the Cross who PAID for it all...2000 yrs ago.

Notice that 2 Corinthians 5:19..... says that sin is not charged.... because God was in Christ reconciling the WORLD to Himself.
But that reconciliation is conditional.

ITs based on this..

"The work of God is that you believe on JESUS whom God sent'.""

Once Belief, FAITH is given to God, God redeems all sin, and the person is born again, a new Creation "in Christ".

That is a spiritual and eternal position that is no longer ""under the law"", as "Christ is the END OF THE LAW for Righteousness, for/to everyone who believes".

See, .....When a person is under the law, the Law defines their sin., and them as sinners.
When they are under Grace, "you are not under the law, you are under Grace" if the person is born again, then the Law can't define them or their works any longer as "sin" or "sinner".= as That is the eternal effect of the Cross and blood atonement.

WELCOME TO SALVATION...

See, you cant be "in Christ" "seated in heavenly places", and "one with God".... and have any SIN.

This is why 1 John 3:9 explains that you don't., if you are born again, and not just water baptized and religious, trying to work your way to heaven.

A person who is confessing "sin" that is already dealt with 2000 yrs ago, does not understand Salvation and will read Romans 4:8 and
2 Corinthians 5:19, and have NO CLUE.
None.

 

[Episkopos]

Christ dealt with all the sin of the born again, 2000 yrs ago.
So, confess what?

Romans 4:8 says that God does not charge sin to the born again.
Why not?
Because they are not under the law, as only the law has the dominion RIGHT to classify "sin" and "sinner".
The born again are under Grace, and the dominion of Grace has no Moses Law in it., because "Christ has redeemed the born again from the Curse of the Law".

There is no Moses Law in HEAVEN.
And the born again are "in Christ" and "one with God".
And where are they?

And because that has happened, Romans 4:8 is a eternal fact.
God can't charge sin to the born again, as He's already charged all sin to Jesus on the Cross who PAID for it all...2000 yrs ago.

Notice that 2 Corinthians 5:19..... says that sin is not charged.... because God was in Christ reconciling the WORLD to Himself.
But that reconciliation is conditional.

ITs based on this..

"The work of God is that you believe on JESUS whom God sent'.""

Once Belief, FAITH is given to God, God redeems all sin, and the person is born again, a new Creation "in Christ".

That is a spiritual and eternal position that is no longer ""under the law"", as "Christ is the END OF THE LAW for Righteousness, for/to everyone who believes".

See, .....When a person is under the law, the Law defines their sin., and them as sinners.
When they are under Grace, "you are not under the law, you are under Grace" if the person is born again, then the Law can't define them or their works any longer as "sin" or "sinner".= as That is the eternal effect of the Cross and blood atonement.

WELCOME TO SALVATION...

See, you cant be "in Christ" "seated in heavenly places", and "one with God".... and have any SIN.

This is why 1 John 3:9 explains that you don't., if you are born again, and not just water baptized and religious, trying to work your way to heaven.

A person who is confessing "sin" that is already dealt with 2000 yrs ago, does not understand Salvation and will read Romans 4:8 and
2 Corinthians 5:19, and have NO CLUE.
None.

When a post is this off the wall...I don't break it down since the whole thing is based on a heresy known as Gnosticism. Now a lot of people agree with this nonsense...at least to some degree. As long as you pretend to be perfect or seated in heavenly places BECAUSE YOU READ about it.....then you are a Gnostic. Name it and claim it!

There is no saving knowledge. You have to experience the POWER of grace to be saved from sin and walk like Jesus. The rest is religious non-sense.

I wish people could be honest. At least @Behold is being honest in his ridiculous doctrinal bent. How many agree with him? Many here are dishonest about how much Gnostic ideology they rely on to bring comfort to their religious outer man. Only by exposing the darkness can anyone hope to grow. But the flesh supports the flesh.